Should unkel sell his Ioniq?

unkel wrote: »

Eh yeah, I went a little bit wrong there

Let's just say both cars charge up to 80% at the fast charger. We are in a hurry, right and we want to go to Cork as quickly as possible?

Ioniq would take 13 minutes, Leaf would take 26 minutes.

Again twice as fast.

I have seen from other posters that Ioniq can charge sustained at 70kW up to 80%. Perhaps Nyland got a bit less because it was winter in Norway? And yes, I do believe Leaf will have better range than Ioniq at real 120km/h speeds, but not much. The coefficient of drag is far worse which really counts at those speeds. The figures for driving at 100km/h would be far more favourable for Leaf.

If the Ioniq only goes to 80% there is a good chance the Ioniq won't make it to Cork at all in which case the Ioniq will need to charge beyond 80% (i.e. 22kW) as nobody is going to take a trip like that and drive it within a whisker of turtle. So, you need to go beyond 80% at a 22kW rate so now your 13mins is much longer thus reducing the early gains you got at 70kW.... are you with me yet?!

If you just do a 45 vs 70 comparison it looks simple.... it doesn't work that way in practice because it has a smaller battery and it will taper.

unkel wrote: »

I have seen from other posters that Ioniq can charge sustained at 70kW up to 80%. Perhaps Nyland got a bit less because it was winter in Norway?

I don't think Nyland's test was wrong. As long as the temp of the battery is up to operating temp it doesn't matter that much what the outside temp is. He was on one of his road trips I think. In any case he got an average of 63kW so its still an impressive figure and hopefully the new Leaf will get it in a year or two.

unkel wrote: »

The figures for driving at 100km/h would be far more favourable for Leaf.

This is somewhat my point. You can take the worse case scenario for a Leaf (120kmh on motorway) and show maybe 10mins of a difference in charge time depending on circumstances but not everyone will be driving motorway.... the only motorway out of Cork is the one to Dublin.... driving any other direction its N roads where you'd be lucky to average 80kmh. The 45 vs 70 charge rate matters even less there because you might not even need to use the rapid with the Leaf being able to do 250-300km where the Ioniq will have to stop.... so you might gain in one scenario but you'll lose in others.... for every scenario you put up I'll put up another one where the Leaf will win.... its swings and roundabouts and I stick to my point its not that big a deal unless you are planning on doing this famed Cork - Dublin trip everyday.


Lets move back to your Op.... why are you selling this super efficient high charge rate Ioniq again?!

n97 mini wrote: »

I would doubt the new Leaf will be as un-aerodynamic as the older one so I'd expect kwh per 100km figures to be much closer to the Ioniq.

Also, have we any FCPs (Tesla aside) in this country that are officially more than 45kw?

Only the DBT fcp are limited to 43-45kW.
Most if not all of the efacec are 50kW.

unkel wrote: »

Half the countries population lives in the greater Dublin area and anytime any one of them needs to make a trip beyond the range of the car, every single one of them will go on the motorway. Except of course L drivers (joke)

But it's an interesting point. For people that rarely drive on motorways (or who choose to drive as slow as the trucks) that is a strong argument for a new Leaf over an Ioniq

Even for those in GDA I'd still say the longer range of the Leaf outweighs the perceived advantage of 70kW charging in the shorter range Ioniq.


I also wonder if you put the new Leaf on a 70kW charger would it actually pull 50kW rather than 45kW? The only reason it would get 45kW on our chargers today is because the max they have is 50kW and they are not 100% efficient.

Presumably a 70kW charger would be able to give the full 50kW that the car is rated for?

That would further close the gap with the Ioniq.... 50kW vs 63kW for a 10-80% charge. I guess we'll need Nyland to go on a road trip in the new Leaf next year.

Range seems to be the issue for you Unkel, however I cannot see you getting top price for that EV. Would be rare to sell any car in Ireland for close to the price you paid.

I saw a Twizzy recently and thats the way to go. Twizzy in the city, ICE for that motorway

Evd-Burner wrote: »

My mum's Ioniq was charging at more than double that rate right up to 90% when before it majorly tapered off. So more like 4 to 5 mins.

Nylands video clearly showed it tapering aggressively after 80% but fair enough, probably depends on battery temp.... its still 5 mins on top of the 13mins....

So, we went from the initial figure of 39mins v 19mins. Then we went to 26mins v 13mins and now we are at 26mins v18mins.

So, on a 250km, 2hr trip the Ioniq has beaten the Leaf by a whopping 8mins!!!!!!


And thats using some very questionable efficiency figures for the Leaf and also not allowing for the reasonable possibility that the Leaf might actually charge at 50kW vs 45kW.

I stick to my point.... the advantage is slight. You are all focussed on the headline max charge rate and not putting it together with the reduced battery size and tapering that the Ioniq has.

unkel wrote: »

No we're not. The point I made was that for motorway driving, Ioniq charges twice as fast. It does in practice. That was the point I made and that I supported with pretty realistic and reasonable figures and assumptions. You're clutching at straws trying to show I was "not even close, not a chance" because you know I was close

You're not close though. You are talking about the headline figure. You are not talking about a real world journey where you would consider a 2hr journey and arriving with 1kWh to spare.... thats just nonsense. You wouldn't do that willingly unless you are willing to risk a flatbed.

The reality is you would have to charge longer in the Ioniq. You need to see passed the headline figure and apply it to a real world scenario.

unkel wrote: »

A 28kWh Ioniq will win the race to Cork from a 40kWh new Leaf. And it does so with just a 13 minute stop. Still a stop, but not a very long one. Hopefully in another year or two, a cheap econobox EV like Leaf or Ioniq can do it without stopping

Yes, and tbf, its a significant achievement that a 28kWh Ioniq can theoretically do that vs a 40kWh Leaf. I haven't questioned or argued that point, except the BS figures you posted... I'm in agreement with the overall figures but its not the "twice as fast" as your saying. Its 8mins (at best) on a 2hr journey. Hardly mind blowingly faster is it?

And its just one scenario (250km @120kmh) which is not a typical everyday drive and as you have already agreed the Leaf is potentially, maybe even probably, better than the Ioniq for those... so again, its not uncompetitive.



So lets get back to the reason this debate started.... the statement made was that the new Leaf is not competitive because of 45kW Chademo charging. Clearly, even using your figures, thats not true.

Evd-Burner wrote: »

To be honest I do see it as a competitor but I still think the 45kw charging is pathetic, it should be closer to 100kw and taper down as the battery charges. Not making any improvement on charging speed in 6 years is just nuts and Nissan should have and easily could have done better!

Agreed.

I'm sure they will support higher rates. Surely in the longer range Leaf which they said will be announced next year for 2019.

It boils down to this..., some journeys will be quicker in an Ioniq if you pick the right scenario. Other journeys will be quicker in a Leaf. So it depends and is not as simple as 45 vs 70. That's all I was trying to get across.... badly maybe!

unkel wrote: »

Surely I never made any statement like that?

Not you, no, but thats what the debate was about.

unkel wrote: »

What is a bit disappointing is that a 2018 Leaf is nowhere near as efficient as a 2016 Ioniq and can charge nowhere near as quickly.

I agree on the efficiency and I agree that its disappointing it doesn't have faster charging but I don't agree on the "nowhere near" element. I won't drag up all the previous points again.

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq is much faster than old Leaf. In acceleration and in top speed. It also charges much quicker than old or new Leaf. It is also more efficient than old or new Leaf. If you publicly argue with facts like these, it won't do much for your general credibility I'm afraid.

For speed... what is it 150 vs 165? Thats not much of a difference and irrelevant to almost everyone who buys a family hatch.

Just for context, on the current chargers we have in this country, it does charge much quicker than the 24kWh Leaf but not the 30kWh Leaf. Its quicker but not much quicker but methinks you have a different definition of "much" to me based on the last few posts anyway!

For the new Leaf, if we had a bunch of 70kW chargers then we would be looking at roughly 63kW vs 50kW for a 10-80%... is that "much quicker"? Thats not "much quicker" in my eyes but I think we need to move on from that debate.

unkel wrote: »

144 vs 167

Relevant to me - obviously only when I drive on my private roads

No, the Leaf is 150 (GPS speed). I know from my private roads!

unkel wrote: »

I guess it is. I made comments based on my driving experience in this and other threads in the past, which you disputed.

Not sure what you are referring to on other threads but this is a discussion forum for debating/disputing things. Can I not dispute what you post even if you have experience in something? I drive too btw?!

unkel wrote: »

I backed my comments up with figures from a single independent comparison site, and you seem to dispute these figures too. I guess there isn't much more to say about this.

The point I made is that there are different figures depending on the site you visit. Nissan have also made changes to the take off of the Leaf as some people were complaining of wheel spin so you will get different figures depending on the year of Leaf you test drive.

http://autotk.com/0-60-times/nissan/leaf/


Things aren't always as simple as they seem.


Im not saying your source is any more or less reliable just that other experienced people on here have also driven both cars and disagree with you, so its fair to challenge you I think.

unkel wrote: »

CHAdeMO in Roscommon has been replaced by a triple head according to the eCars newsletter, so I guess I will win that race after all

Will make a bit of a difference to me so I'm happy about it. Have family in Bundoran that we occasionally visit and would have had to go via M1 and Laghey to get there before now (making it at least a 4 hour trip instead of the 2.5 hours in ICE) and hope to hell Laghey isn't out of service.

Roscommon isn't on the road to Sligo though. If I was going to Roscommon I'd go via Athlone, so it represents a fair detour.

A 330i is what you need in fairness. Before all the dino juice runs out....