Buddhist thoughts on death

UbahOne · 12-08-2003 10:16pm #1

So in the eyes of a Buddhist...what happens when you die?

Yoda · 12-08-2003 10:32pm

Originally posted by UbahOne
So in the eyes of a Buddhist...what happens when you die?

The Buddha wouldn't say. Many Theravada Buddhist believe that one is immediately reborn. That seems a but sudden to me, though I tend to Theravada notions often enough. Tibetans believe that the personality, which is considered to be a set of aggregates, dissolves more slowly. That is, for a time after death, one is still aware of one's former life. Tibetans believe that for up to 50 days, a "soul" is in the Bardo before choosing a new rebirth, or being sucked along into one by karma if one isn't aware enough to choose. (There is a lot more to this but it really would be another thread and I'd need to do a bit of reading to refresh a few things.)

So reincarnation is part of the tenets of Buddhism. The idea is that consciousness has an energy that evolves, rather than dissipates, and so it holds together more or less consistently between embodiments precisely because the will to be and to become is so strong.

But reincarnation isn't essential for Buddhist practice to be useful. It's quite possible to consider that at death all of one's energy just dissipates into the universe. Does it matter? I am comforted either way, because there isn't anything I can do about it no matter what. Walking the Middle Path is fulfilling enough. You've got to walk some path, after all. [Thread relevance!] And worshipping (whatever "worshipping" is) the God of Abraham just doesn't do it for me.

Comparing Jesus and Gotama does, sometimes, though, but that's another thread.

UbahOne · 12-08-2003 10:43pm

Death actually freaks me out man...so scary...I believe death isnt programmed into humans so we can only assume what we think it is and i associate fear with it but its probably something completely different and not that bad...or it could be the worst thing in the world...sorry for going off topic but im no buddhist!

Yoda · 12-08-2003 10:54pm

You don't believe death isn't programmed into humans? There aren't very many examples of beings with DNA not dying, are there?

Buddhist notions about death have a lot to do with centuries of individuals examining the question in various rarified states of consciousness, and (especially in Tibet) close observation and interaction with the dying. I don't say "believe them". I just tried to answer your question.

UbahOne · 12-08-2003 11:18pm

No I believe death IS NOT programmed into humans. Its outside their wildest thoughts...they could think all day and still not come up with an answer...well they could but not the right one. I mean God wouldn't do that.

So what is the Buddha?

Dawg · 13-08-2003 4:18am

First off I'll admit to being largely ignorant of Buddhist beliefs/practices until very recently [read: yesterday], but I've been doing some reading and finding it to be pretty interesting stuff.

Anywho, one of the things I was having difficulty getting my head around was the whole dying/rebirth thing. The main source of my confusion was the Buddhist belief that there is no self and no soul, that these are merely an illusion.
So if there is no self, and no soul then how can a person be reborn?

So I read a bit further and among other things, came across this analogy which put a bit of perspective on it:

If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a
single ripple or wave has a self.

Similarly, in case of beings, the process of coming into life and being conditioned in a particular way is caused by karmic forces. The up and down of the ocean's waves corresponds with the rotation of the wheel of life. The sea that surges, falls, and resurges, is the life that is born, dies, and is reborn again. It is therefore obvious that we should not focus on the temporary phenomenon of the wave, but on the force that causes, forms, and drives it. Nothing else is said, although in more practical terms, in the Eightfold Path.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, but it made the Buddhist concept of rebirth a bit easier to grasp. I don't fully understand it and there's a lot more to it but it's certainly food for thought.

Methinks more reading is required, but thats for another day..

So what is the Buddha?

One who has supreme knowledge

Yoda · 13-08-2003 10:13am

Originally posted by UbahOne
No I believe death IS NOT programmed into humans.

OK, I just don't understand what you mean by this. Could you explain this using another metaphor?

Yoda · 13-08-2003 10:25am

Posted by Dawg very early this morning...
The main source of my confusion was the Buddhist belief that there is no self and no soul, that these are merely an illusion. So if there is no self, and no soul then how can a person be reborn?

This is a bit complicated but a brief answer will serve. What we in the West think of as our "selves" and our "soul" are almost identical apart from the fact that the latter is not identified with its embodiment. (Clear?) The Buddha teaches that all those specific personality features we think of are just aggregates of attributes. "I" am not my like of coffee and my dislike of liver. The attributes which adhere to consciousness in a lifetime make us unique, and obviously are useful. What Buddhists believe is that some sort of energy of consciousness continues on after disembodiment; the personal attributes pass away, and consciousness chooses a new body to be reborn in, which in turn will get its own attributes as life goes on. Tibetans believe, however, that memories and some other attributes are passed along in the rebirths of important Lamas.

(I haven't studied up on this aspect of things for years and years.)

By the way, "buddha" means 'awakened', not 'one who has suppreme knowledge'.

mickmacdublin · 13-08-2003 10:41am

In the Tibetan Buddhist tradition a lot of emphasis is put on learning to die without fear. There are many texts which minutely describe the dying process and what happens after death.

For most, according to Tibetan tradition, there is a period of up to seven weeks spent in a intermediate state before rebirth into one of six possible "worlds" (these can also be read allegorically rather than literally).

For accomplished meditators process of death and dying offers great opportunities for enlightenment.

Suggest reading such texts as the The Tibetan Book of the Dead (pref not the unreadable old Evans-Wentz edition) or even Sogyal Rinpoche's Tibetan Book of Living and Dying (although the latter I find a bit "Dharma-Lite" but many people like it).

Mick

Yoda · 13-08-2003 11:07am

Here are Amazon.co.uk links to Sogyal Rinpoche's Tibetan Book of Living and Dying and to Francesca Fremantle and Chögyam Trungpa's translation of and commentary to The Tibetan Book of the Dead.

UbahOne · 13-08-2003 12:44pm

Ok what i am trying to say is Humans can not possibly know what is heaven/what is hell and what is Purgatory etc. Cos my creator God wouldn't make humans who know what heaven/hell/and Purgatory is. Programmed is the best metaphor i can possibly think of because well ok, look at humans as robots. If we make a robot like RoboCop(booyakasha), he is programmed to protect the civilians and co-operate with the police. Lets say this RoboCop knows there is death and one day he will eventually fade and die. But we didnt implement in his brain what can possibly happen when he dies. So he does not know...forget the real RoboCop in the movies. Only talking about this one. Do you get what i mean now?

avatar · 20-08-2003 12:30am

In answer to your question, Buddha's name was Siddartha and he was a prince of one of the asian countries. He eschewed the material, teaching that true happiness can only be attained on the spiritual level, on a path of moderation (i.e. if you're too rich, you won't be happy. If you're too poor, you won't be happy)
He is regarded as a prophet, and, though I'm not sure on this one, I think he's regarded as an avatar of a god as well...

As for buddhist teaching on death, buddhists believe in the Wheel of time, reincarnation and karma. Basically, buddhists believe that history repeats itself and that we are constantly reborn within this cycle. The symbol of the wheel of time is a swastika, but the other way round (Hitler reversed the symbol, which is in fact thousands of years old). You reincarnate until you attain perfect karma. Performing good deeds in life (helping others and so on) gives you good karma. Bad deeds = bad karma.
You reincarnate until perfect karma is otained, and then you break free of the wheel and obtain nirvana (the state of enlightenment, not the band

) and you go to dwell with the gods in a state of perpetual bliss...

Now, this is what I think i know, but as I'm not a buddhist (yet) I may be wrong, and am open to correction (in fact, I'd welcome it)]
I hope that answers the question

mickmacdublin · 20-08-2003 8:16am

Since you ask for corrections - I'd like to point out a few things in you post that are not clear or possibly incorrect

Avatar said In answer to your question, Buddha's name was Siddartha and he was a prince of one of the asian countries.

India

He eschewed the material, teaching that true happiness can only be attained on the spiritual level, on a path of moderation (i.e. if you're too rich, you won't be happy. If you're too poor, you won't be happy)
He is regarded as a prophet, and, though I'm not sure on this one, I think he's regarded as an avatar of a god as well...

The Buddha was not a prophet - in that he did make any prophesies about the future particularly nor was a mouthpiece for God.

As for buddhist teaching on death, buddhists believe in the Wheel of time, reincarnation and karma.

The "Wheel of Time" is the name for a particular Buddhist text - known as the Kalachakra Tantra. I think you are referring to Samsara the endless cycle of birth, suffering and death.

Basically, buddhists believe that history repeats itself and that we are constantly reborn within this cycle. The symbol of the wheel of time is a swastika,

Not so sure that is true but may be

but the other way round (Hitler reversed the symbol, which is in fact thousands of years old). You reincarnate until you attain perfect karma. Performing good deeds in life (helping others and so on) gives you good karma. Bad deeds = bad karma.
You reincarnate until perfect karma is otained, and then you break free of the wheel and obtain nirvana (the state of enlightenment, not the band )

No karma is just cause and effect. There is indeed good causes which give good effects and bad causes which bad effects and neutral causes which give effects which are neither good or bad.

On attaining enlightenment one goes beyond karma completely.

and you go to dwell with the gods in a state of perpetual bliss...

Again Buddhists do no believe in god - there are some teachings that relate the existence of god-like beings but these are not enlightened and not really much better off than ourselves as they are still in Samsara.

When a Buddha's physical body dies he/she still continues to manifest in many forms for the benefit of sentient beings.

Mick

avatar · 20-08-2003 11:58pm

Thanks.... I always thought buddhists believed in the existance of the hindu gods, just didn't worship them.

albertw · 21-08-2003 9:24pm

Originally posted by Yoda
The Buddha wouldn't say.

One school of thought is that he didnt say anything about it since its not important. You WILL die, its the one certainty, so get on with worrying about how you live and not about death. :-)

I'm not even sure where the idea of re-incarnation came into Buddhism.

Cheers,
~Al
(not a Buddhist.)

Yoda · 21-08-2003 10:11pm

I guess it was more or less "Well if I tell you that the skandhas all dissolve into the ether you will hold to that view of what happens after death, and if I tell you that the skandhas hold together after you depart your body you will hold to that view, and since you won't know till you get there, and if you hold on to one view or another it won't get you anywhere, so I'm not saying."

ur mentor · 06-12-2003 11:22pm

Can anyone here explain something to me?
If buddist teaching says souls are recycled at death- how is it that the population of the world keeps rising. does the soul split up? and go into more bodies? or does it go into non human forms?
or is is that there are many souls out there somewhere waiting to gain access to new body?
or have i missed the point altogether?

mickmacdublin · 07-12-2003 12:22am

If buddist teaching says souls are recycled at death- how is it that the population of the world keeps rising. does the soul split up? and go into more bodies? or does it go into non human forms?

You have made a few misconceptions - in the Buddhist view you can be reborn in any one of six realms: as a god, a demi-god, a human, an animal, a ghost or a hell-being. So the increasing human population is due to more beings taking human birth on this planet. In theory in your last life you may not have been human at all and in the next you may not be either.

To make matters more complicated still, buddhists do not believe in a soul as such. In Hinduism it is believed that there is a soul which sheds a body at death and picks up another one for the next life. In Buddhism there is no belief in an eternally existing soul but rather in a composite and constantly changing "mindstream" of volitional factors created through one's karma and only transcended when one reaches enlightenment. There is a lot of debate in different Buddhist sects about the nature of this "mindstream" and the exact nature of what goes on from one life to another. Some of the philisophy surrounding it is pretty heavy.

Thirdly, you do not have to believe in rebirth to be a Buddhist.

Mick

Yoda · 08-12-2003 6:18pm

MickMacDublin said that
in the Buddhist view you can be reborn in any one of six realms: as a god, a demi-god, a human, an animal, a ghost or a hell-being.

It is by no means the case that all Buddhists hold this view, though it is certainly the case that Tibetan Buddhism uses this model in its teachings.

As a model or metaphor I have no problem with it, though it's just another structure to let go of. In any case, many Buddhists don't worry much about whether rebirth is literal or not. If pressed I personally tend toward the position that "the desire to be, to become more and more" is very strong and that it holds energies together which do find another body to reside in. The notion that consciousness is just the result of biochemistry doesn't make sense to me; I usually say that the brain is the organ through which consciousness manifests in the world of form.

MickMacDublin is perfectly correct in saying that you don't have to believe in reincarnation to be a Buddhist.

mickmacdublin · 08-12-2003 7:48pm

I think this view of the six realms is found in all orthodox schools - including Theravadin buddhism. Infact it is set out in the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta - the Buddha's first teaching after his enlightenment. Some "western" buddhists do not hold the orthodox view but choose to see these 6 states as "symbolic" of mind states we experience all the time since each realm is associated with a particular mind poison: god-realm - pride, demigods - envy, human - desire, animal - ignorance, hungry ghost - greed, hell - hatred.

It is quite a subtle teaching. For a being who is consumed with hate and fear they are in a living hell they are not living the same life as we do - their suffering is much greater. Since all reality is a creation of mind, the predominant mind poison in a beings mind creates the experience of samsara they undergo. That in essence is the meaning of the teachings on the 6 realms.

As regards rebirth - the prob is we cannot see the link between lives but mind cannot come from nothing. This is one of the arguments (hardly conclusive I agree) that supports rebirth as a notion. For most of us though there is no telling what happens after death.

Mick

Yoda · 08-12-2003 9:32pm

I don't find the Buddha presenting a "taxonomy if the six realms" in the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta. There is some narrative text (written by someone else) explaining that the deities of several heavens proclaimed the news up some sort of chain of being. The Buddha describes his experience as "unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras and gods, with its contemplatives and priests, its royalty and commonfolk" but I don't see him telling us that he believes in deities, maras, and gods; though certainly he expected that his audience would have done.

mickmacdublin · 09-12-2003 2:15pm

I am a bit perplexed by the tendency I see for people to portray the Buddha as not a man of his time but as the ultimate empiricist or even the ultimate agnostic.

There is no doubt that the Theravadin Abhidamma pitaka does contain a taxonomy of the six realms (and more) cf the following urlhttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/loka.html

From the view of ultimate truth neither karma, birth or death exist - since there is no essential action or actor. From the point of view of relative truth karma, birth and death do most certainly exist.

I do not think it is necessary to believe that there is a definite Buddhist Hell somewhere for example but that our karma dictates our experience of reality. My view of reality is not too dissimilar from the majority of other human beings (since we share a similar general karma) but it is not identical to any other beings. We all live in a little reality of our own making. For those whose predominate karmic trait is hatred they inhabit a reality that those who us whose predominant karmic trait is desire cannot imagine.

Yoda · 09-12-2003 3:14pm

I think he was a realist. Yes, he lived in a world where belief in heavens and gods and demons was commonplace. He tended not to show much interest in the supernatural stuff. I mean, what we see and experience with our own senses is illusory enough without worrying about whether or not we should believe (to use that term so important to Jews, Christians, and Muslims) in devas dwelling in mansions in the air.

You say "My view of reality is not too dissimilar from the majority of other human beings ... but it is not identical to any other beings." What other beings? Do you mean mammals and birds and our other neighbours, or do you mean something else?

mickmacdublin · 09-12-2003 3:35pm

You say "My view of reality is not too dissimilar from the majority of other human beings ... but it is not identical to any other beings." What other beings? Do you mean mammals and birds and our other neighbours, or do you mean something else?

What I mean simply is that because each of us has individual karma we all see reality slightly differently from each other. As I share a lot of karma with other humans my view of reality will have a lot in common with other human beings - it will have less in common with the way animals for example conceive of reality.

Yoda · 09-12-2003 3:53pm

Apparently schizophrenics have a pretty different take on things. The mind is so very interesting.

One can learn a lot from observing animals. The consciousness of my cat is filled with desire....

Buddhist thoughts on death

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