Gun Control in the US

AbusesToilets · 04-03-2018 03:22PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

You have entirely created this 'thin edge of the wedge' stuff yourself in order to create an enemy to fight against.

As I said earlier, that argument could be taken to stop any law. Why allow speed limits, they'll only lower them? Why ban some drugs, they'll ban everything soon. Why have an age of consent, sure they'll outlaw sex in total soon.

Its a nonsense, another ungrounded fear. For such a brave and free country they live in perpetual fear of the future.

This is a very specific issue, with a documented history of actions taken and pursued by the anti-gun side. California is an example of this.

Would you say the same thing to a Pro choice advocate who was railing against an attempt to impose limitations on Planned Parenthood, or time limits for abortion access?

Leroy42 · 04-03-2018 03:42PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

This is a very specific issue, with a documented history of actions taken and pursued by the anti-gun side. California is an example of this.

Would you say the same thing to a Pro choice advocate who was railing against an attempt to impose limitations on Planned Parenthood, or time limits for abortion access?

It is a very specific to you, not in a overall view of how legislation works.

I would ask anyone, pro-choice included, to back up their stance with facts. The fact is that despite a massive, an increasing amount, of gun in the US, the opposite of what is claimed is happening. Crime rates are not lower, deaths from guns is many multiples of other countries.

But if the argument was that God told them, or they just don't like it, would carry no weight with me. There are plenty of things that are allowed/unlawful for which I do not necessarily agree but I can understand the reason.

For example, I feel that I am a great driver, my car is well maintained and has the ability to drive very fast. But I understand that the streets are not my racetrack and as such I need to take account of that.

Brian? · 04-03-2018 04:30PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You say it's not on the table, but other posters in this thread and activists in the US have openly stated such desires, repeatedly. I don't consider the idea of banning semi auto rifles as some sort of compromise either, nor an idea that would have any meaningful impact on reducing deaths.

Anti-gun folks want a spectacular win, so to speak. A repeat of the Assault Weapons Ban or something similar. There is a strong chance of passing laws that could gain consensus and have an positive outcome. Better background checks, education, policing initiatives, and most fundamentally, improving mental health care.

What activists in the US want to ban all guns?

Leroy42 · 19-03-2018 07:29PM

A 13-year-old girl has died after allegedly being shot in the back of the head by her nine-year-old brother because she refused to give him a video game controller, according to authorities in Monroe County, Mississippi.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mississippi-shooting-9-year-old-shoots-sister-video-game-argument-a8263531.html

Another shooting within a family, involving children.

I know this could come across as bad taste, but given the lengths that gun advocates are prepared to go to ignore all the evidence I'm going to go ahead anyway.

I am sure that shortly we will be let know that this boy had mental issues (obviously because of the computer game) and I would not be surprised if the NRA don't come out to say that this wouldn't have happened if the girl had a gun.

You know, maybe, just maybe, having guns around is not the best option!

Manic Moran · 19-03-2018 08:12PM

Or, maybe, idiot parents. This parent left a gun where an irresponsible kid could get it. That parent didn't put a socket cover on the electical outlet and his kid shoved a hairpin in it. The other parent didn't put a fence up around his pool and the kid drowned in it.

Whatever happened to parental responsibility?

Leroy42 · 19-03-2018 08:26PM

Ah, deflection. Not unexpected.

Who said anything about it not being the parents responsibility? No-one. But as usual, lets find something else to talk about rather than wondering why a gun was there in the first place.

But I actually agree. Maybe we should only let people own guns when they have shown they are responsible enough to own them.

What would that entail to you think?

Also, the gun should of course be locked up, away from the ammunition. If only there was some way that you would require a key, code or finger print to engage the gun. But then that would involve the gun manufacturers actually taking some responsibility.

jobbridge4life · 19-03-2018 08:37PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Or, maybe, idiot parents. This parent left a gun where an irresponsible kid could get it. That parent didn't put a socket cover on the electical outlet and his kid shoved a hairpin in it. The other parent didn't put a fence up around his pool and the kid drowned in it.

Whatever happened to parental responsibility?

Sorry but how are you supposed to stop a bad kid with a gun? Only a good kid with a gun can do that.

The parents ought to be arrested for failing to arm their deceased child.

Hitman3000 · 19-03-2018 08:52PM

Manic Moran wrote:

Or, maybe, idiot parents. This parent left a gun where an irresponsible kid could get it. That parent didn't put a socket cover on the electical outlet and his kid shoved a hairpin in it. The other parent didn't put a fence up around his pool and the kid drowned in it.

Deflect, deflect, rinse and repeat.

Nate--IRL-- · 19-03-2018 09:00PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Sorry but how are you supposed to stop a bad kid with a gun? Only a good kid with a gun can do that.

The parents ought to be arrested for failing to arm their deceased child.

I actually burst out laughing at that - I'm going to hell

Nate

Manic Moran · 19-03-2018 09:20PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Ah, deflection. Not unexpected.

Who said anything about it not being the parents responsibility? No-one. But as usual, lets find something else to talk about rather than wondering why a gun was there in the first place.

I did ask why the gun was there in the first place. Why was it where the kid could reach it? The kid presumably didn't buy it.

Yet look at the posts above. Jibes like "Give the younger kid a gun as well". "Mental issues." "Video games". All completely sarcastic commentary aimed at provided an emphasis on a chosen line of thought relating to the prevalence of firearms, when in all cases, what it really is is a failure in being a responsible parent. And, to my knowledge, nobody on the pro-gun side has even contemplated saying such things as those.

But no, it's easier to say "Ah, deflection, as expected". No, it's not deflection if it's pointing directly at the root problem of this issue.

Many children die due to parental failures. More kids under 14 die due to swimming pools than firearms. But we don't post stupid sarcastic comments about swimming pool deaths involving unsupervised children, even though the root cause is exactly the same: Parents who do not take suitable precautions for the safety of their children.

Also, the gun should of course be locked up, away from the ammunition. If only there was some way that you would require a key, code or finger print to engage the gun. But then that would involve the gun manufacturers actually taking some responsibility.

Rubbish. My firearms are locked away, and my loaded pistol is behind a fingerprint lock. That has nothing to do with the firearms manufacturer, that's got to do with me choosing to lock away my pistol because I have a pre-teen daughter as a responsible parent.

Leroy42 · 19-03-2018 09:33PM

It is deflection. You are so scared of even touching on any thing that might involve removing guns that your first thought is to blame something else. What are the laws in Mississippi around storing personal weapons in the house?

Sure swimming pools drowning cause death, but what levels? If a kid jumps into a pool when a parent isn't watching will they always die? What about if a kid gets their hands on the gun? You are back to the usual "well people die in cars everyday, ban them" nonsense.

I have no idea why the gun was there, but I can bet you anything that if it wasn't there in the 1st place that little girl would be alive.

And the reason people like me are trotting out what you call sarcastic is because that is the usual, and you have gone and created another one, blame the parents. Do I blame the parents, yes, for starters for having the gun in the first place with children in the house. The parents should be held criminally responsible.

And you're right, many kids die to parental failures. And I wish we could do something about all of them. I hate to see neglected children, children of drug or other substances addicts etc. But we are never going to get to a situation of forced sterilisation.

So we do what we can. So lets look at you logic. You blame idiot parents. So do you envisage a test before parents can buy guns? Education, enforcement etc.

All guns should be locked away if children are in a house, or could be in the house (uncles, grandparents etc). All guns should have locks fitted to them so that they can't be accidentally fired or fired by anyone other than the owner. You suggest that it is technically possible so why not mandate it? A buy back of older guns that cannot be upgraded, funded by the manufacturers. If they can't remove their licence to sell.

jobbridge4life · 19-03-2018 09:43PM

Manic, I am genuinely caught between sympathy for you and revulsion. Then I remember reality and I realise what you are defending and I feel sickened.

Manic Moran wrote: »

I did ask why the gun was there in the first place. Why was it where the kid could reach it? The kid presumably didn't buy it.

Yet look at the posts above. Jibes like "Give the younger kid a gun as well". "Mental issues." "Video games". All completely sarcastic commentary aimed at provided an emphasis on a chosen line of thought relating to the prevalence of firearms, when in all cases, what it really is is a failure in being a responsible parent. And, to my knowledge, nobody on the pro-gun side has even contemplated saying such things as those.

The President literally summoned gaming heads to the White House in response to a school shooting. The NRA advocate for the arming of teachers in schools.

Manic Moran wrote: »

But no, it's easier to say "Ah, deflection, as expected". No, it's not deflection if it's pointing directly at the root problem of this issue.

The 'root problem' is the incredible and shameful abundance of deadly weapons in the US. If you ever lived in this country, I am horrified by your capacity to lie to yourself. You and the US population at large are sacrificing your children so you can keep your dick replacements. I don't pity ye, I revile ye.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Many children die due to parental failures. More kids under 14 die due to swimming pools than firearms. But we don't post stupid sarcastic comments about swimming pool deaths involving unsupervised children, even though the root cause is exactly the same: Parents who do not take suitable precautions for the safety of their children.

1300 children die every year from guns in the USA. 1300. That you would in any way try and deflect from that is shameful. It is disgusting. You personally should be ashamed.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Rubbish. My firearms are locked away, and my loaded pistol is behind a fingerprint lock. That has nothing to do with the firearms manufacturer, that's got to do with me choosing to lock away my pistol because I have a pre-teen daughter as a responsible parent.

I hope and pray you don't become one of the countless statistics.

Manic Moran · 19-03-2018 09:48PM

California has a law which basically states that if a parent leaves a firearm where a child can access it, and the child then goes and does something illegal with the firearm, the parent is held responsible and is charged. That seems to me to be a fairly reasonable compromise between a criminal repercussion of poor parenting (whether anyone dies or not), the role of parental judgement, and the practical reality of compliance with and enforcement of the law. I have no problem with this law. It holds parents responsible for... egads... parenting correctly.

Jobbridge, I appreciate your thoughts and prayers

I, also, hope I do not become a statistic. I'm not relying on prayer, though...

jobbridge4life · 19-03-2018 09:51PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

California has a law which basically states that if a parent leaves a firearm where a child can access it, and the child then goes and does something illegal with the firearm, the parent is held responsible and is charged. That seems to me to be a fairly reasonable compromise between a criminal repercussion of poor parenting (whether anyone dies or not), the role of parental judgement, and the practical reality of compliance with and enforcement of the law. I have no problem with this law. It holds parents responsible for... egads... parenting correctly.

Cool, I am sure the parents of the next round of children to be shot down in their classrooms or running screaming through their school corridors can rest easily knowing someone is going to prison.

Do you actually read the things you write?

jobbridge4life · 19-03-2018 09:52PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Jobbridge, I appreciate your thoughts and prayers
I, also, hope I do not become a statistic. I'm not relying on prayer, though...

You literally are. You literally have decided that your capacity to own weapons of death is worth taking a roll of dice on your children's lives. Disgusting.

Hitman3000 · 19-03-2018 09:57PM

Manic Moran wrote:

California has a law which basically states that if a parent leaves a firearm where a child can access it, and the child then goes and does something illegal with the firearm, the parent is held responsible and is charged. That seems to me to be a fairly reasonable compromise between a criminal repercussion of poor parenting (whether anyone dies or not), the role of parental judgement, and the practical reality of compliance with and enforcement of the law. I have no problem with this law. It holds parents responsible for... egads... parenting correctly.

If the parents haven't guns........

the_syco · 19-03-2018 09:59PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

1300 children die every year from guns in the USA. 1300. That you would in any way try and deflect from that is shameful. It is disgusting. You personally should be ashamed.

Saw that some kid shot another kid over a video game. The kid got the weapon as it wasn't properly secured away. The amount of stupid people who leave their guns lying around is horrifying! I wonder would the NRA mind if a law went in that would jail those who don't put their guns out of reach of their kids?

Manic Moran · 19-03-2018 10:02PM

You literally are. You literally have decided that your capacity to own weapons of death is worth taking a roll of dice on your children's lives. Disgusting.

Choosing not to own a firearm is also taking a roll of the dice, it is merely a different roll.

My problem with your line of thinking is that it presumes that no good can come of a firearm in the house. I disagree. As long as you do not accept that there is any possible good which can come of firearms ownership, then there is no way you can come to an understanding of my position. Not an agreement, an understanding.

FWIW, to answer your earlier comment, I was raised mainly in Ireland, moved to the US at age 25. When I moved initially, I had something of an Irish perspective on firearms (Only Army, Police, sort of thing). My position changed over time after living here, I do believe the American perspective has much to merit it in the American context.

jobbridge4life · 19-03-2018 10:14PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Choosing not to own a firearm is also taking a roll of the dice, it is merely a different roll.

My problem with your line of thinking is that it presumes that no good can come of a firearm in the house. I disagree. As long as you do not accept that there is any possible good which can come of firearms ownership, then there is no way you can come to an understanding of my position. Not an agreement, an understanding.

FWIW, to answer your earlier comment, I was raised mainly in Ireland, moved to the US at age 25. When I moved initially, I had something of an Irish perspective on firearms (Only Army, Police, sort of thing). My position changed over time after living here, I do believe the American perspective has much to merit it in the American context.

Funny, it is only in the American context that children are regularly slaughtered in the classrooms. You've made your choice. You've chosen to subject your children to that threat. Enjoy your guns.

Leroy42 · 19-03-2018 11:07PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Choosing not to own a firearm is also taking a roll of the dice, it is merely a different roll.

Which roll would that be?

If it is this oft use line that you need it for protection that I refer you again to the crime levels in the US which are not less than other civilised countries (I use that term in light of war torn countries).

So it isn't that. So why do you think you need a gun in your house, a house where their are children, which by their very nature are curious?

You have used this irresponsible parents line again. What is your solution, given that it is impossible to police all parents all the time?

You have mentioned that you lock your guns away and have fingerprint lock. So why don't you advocate this for everyone, make it mandatory?

And if you have them locked away, what are you going to do if your are attacked? Or do you reckon they will give you advance notice?

There are no statistics that back up the claim regarding home invasion. SO we can park that.

If its for target practice/hunting then there should be no issue with locking them away and having fingerprint locks.

If see you ignored my suggestion of fingerprint locks as mandatory. Make the manufacturers pay to retrofit or replace (or use taxpayers money if it will help). Every gun would therefore be specific to a single owner. Children couldn't 'play' with them.

But I agree with the earlier poster. The constant refrain from gun advocates that it is everything else to blame but the gun. Arm teachers, lock away guns, education etc.

Great why not simply start at source. Why have to bring in all these processes, at significant cost, when removing the guns achieve far better outcomes? And saves lives.

All these gun owners that come on with their smug "should have been more responsible" stuff. That's all well and good but do you ever let you kids out? How do you know their parents are as responsible as you? Do you vet them?

Leroy42 · 19-03-2018 11:09PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I do believe the American perspective has much to merit it in the American context.

Go on then. What is this great context that allows the acceptance of the so many deaths?

Melodeon · 20-03-2018 09:29AM

Just by way of clarification, when MM mentions a 'fingerprint safe' I'm pretty sure he's talking about this sort of thing:

It's a secure lock-box that allows a person very quick access to their PPW without the need to fiddle with keys or combinations, but restricts access to anyone else.

Brian? · 20-03-2018 04:21PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Go on then. What is this great context that allows the acceptance of the so many deaths?

I’m pretty sure it’s the “kill or be killed” mentality.

The narrative is:

The USA is so awash with firearms you can’t be safe without being armed anymore

The irony being that the vast majority of illegal firearms were originally obtained legally.

My favorite anti gun control argument is the “look at Chicago” argument. Chicago has tough gun laws but a high rate of gun crime, ergo gun laws don’t work. Might be valid if there was a hard border around Chicago that checked travelers for firearms. There isn’t though, firearms can be driven in on the back seat of a car.

spacecoyote · 20-03-2018 05:21PM

Another school shooting today in Maryland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43474309

Hitman3000 · 20-03-2018 05:23PM

spacecoyote wrote:

Another shooting today in Maryland:

Getting boring at this stage.

2 Scoops · 20-03-2018 05:26PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Funny, it is only in the American context that children are regularly slaughtered in the classrooms. You've made your choice. You've chosen to subject your children to that threat. Enjoy your guns.

What are the gun laws like in Brazil?

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/03/28/472157969/brazil-has-nearly-60-000-murders-and-it-may-relax-gun-laws

From this article it says these are requirements

— a fixed address

— proof of legitimate income

— no criminal record

— a mental health test

— proof you know how to handle a gun and shoot it

— evidence of why you need a gun. For example, a police report of an attack against you

Yet it has 60,000 murders a year. Strict gun laws won't change anything as evident in places like Chicago. The moral outrage won't change it either.

Tabnabs · 20-03-2018 05:30PM

spacecoyote wrote: »

Another school shooting today in Maryland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43474309

Shooter shot by an armed staff member. Huh...

frag420 · 20-03-2018 05:40PM

Plug and socket - designed to provide electricity to household items such as tv's, kettles etc.

Hairpin - designed to keep hair tidy

Swimming pools - designed for leisure purposes and fun!

Guns - designed to kill fellow humans!

CAN YOU NOT SEE THE STUPIDITY IN WHAT YOU ARE SAYING????

Manic Moran wrote: »

Or, maybe, idiot parents. This parent left a gun where an irresponsible kid could get it. That parent didn't put a socket cover on the electical outlet and his kid shoved a hairpin in it. The other parent didn't put a fence up around his pool and the kid drowned in it.

Whatever happened to parental responsibility?

Hitman3000 · 20-03-2018 05:45PM

Tabnabs wrote:

Shooter shot by an armed staff member. Huh...

Armed teacher shoots and injuries 3 highschool students in Monterey California during a gun safety demostrastion. Huh....

Hitman3000 · 20-03-2018 05:46PM

frag420 wrote:

CAN YOU NOT SEE THE STUPIDITY IN WHAT YOU ARE SAYING????

Don't waste your time.

Gun Control in the US

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