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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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NPWS WARDEN POWERS

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  • 22-04-2018 9:05am
    #1
    grassroot1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭


    Can anyone tell me where you can find the exact list of powers of a npws ranger/warden?
    Post edited by otmmyboy2 on


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    #2
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    It would be in the wildlife act.


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    #3
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I don't know everything but here is what i do know.
    • First and foremost all rangers will have a identity badge/ID. They must produce this and show who they are.
    • They can demand a valid license for hunting which in most cases is a firearms license, but also foreshore, deer, etc.
    • They have the power to stop, and seize anything they consider to be in violation of the Wildlife act (mostly game, but includes flora).
    • They can enter onto any lands if they suspect someone of being in violation of the Wildlife ACt, but NOT into any building or dwelling.
    • They can demand your name and address, but only if they suspect something is a breach of the Act and they want to verify who you are.
    • They have the power to search a vehicle but ONLY if they suspect it to be used i committing an offense. No searching just for the kicks of it, and they must explain their reason for stopping and wanting to search.
    • They can seize any documentation they believe to be fake/false. Deer permits, licenses, etc.
    • They have the power to seize firearms, traps, game, vehicles, etc. Anything to do with being linked to a possible breach of the Wildlife Act.
    • Any firearms seized MUST be surrendered/stored in the most local Garda Station to which the seizure took place within 24 hours.
    • They have the power to arrest or cause the arrest by a Garda. If they do it they must deliver you to a Garda station immediately.

    Its covered under section 72 of the 1976 Wildlife Act as amended by section 65 of the 2000 Act.

    They have a hos of other "powers", but they mostly relate to their jobs, testing, tagging, etc, etc. Nothing that really relates to us in our pursuits.
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    #4
    650gs
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭650gs


    A few years ago a gun dealer from Templeogue, Co. Dublin and his father was charged in Co Mayo for lamping deer.
    Although the judge remarked at the end of the case that they were not sports men, the case was dismissed because the warden stopped the car on a public road. apparently they dont have the power to do that.


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    #5
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I don't and won't pretend to be an expert as i'm not, but i'd hazard a guess that a very high percentage of all poachers were caught while on public roads. I know of two lads in my area that were caught and stopped on the way home. The Ranger had seen them and followed them. Stopped them, searched the van, found two deer, seized the van, deer, firearms, and then proceeded to bring them to court. They were both found guilty and lost the van, fined and one lost his license (rifle only, allowed to keep his shotgun).

    I've read umpteen stories along the same vein. The Act clearly says they have the power to stop and search, but makes no mention of any limitations or prohibitions on where that search can take place. The most recent, publicized, case was the three men in Donegal done for shining a lamp on land they had permission on. They were, presumably stopped on public roads. The Act, while differentiating between AGS and Authorised person, says they have the same powers in this regard.
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    #6
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Was the 'illegal hunting of foxs' as stated in the link to the article coined because they lamped land that they had no permission on?

    Can some one clarify why it was deemed illegal to lamp foxs if it wasn't to do with land permission. AFAIK, and please correct me there it is still NOT illegal to hunt vermin at night once you've the relevant land permission.


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    #7
    Walter Mittys Brother
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 314 ✭✭Walter Mittys Brother


    In/on the vehicle and/or on a public road while lamping would be illegal?


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    #8
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Can some one clarify why it was deemed illegal to lamp foxs if it wasn't to do with land permission. .
    For the same reason it was for deer, but because they had no deer they couldn't be prosecuted, because using a lamp (whether from a vehicle or not) is classed as hunting.

    The definition of hunting is the search for quarry so using a lamp is technically and legally the same as if you have a rifle. The illegal part, i'm assuming, came from the act of doing it from a vehicle and by shining the lamp on lands they had no permission to hunt on.

    The act of lamping for foxes is legal when it's NOT done in a car and only on lands you have permission to be on. I'd also assume the 60ft rule applies.
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    #9
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Got you, I never thought of the car aspect.....minor hommer moment, I was illogicaly applying the 'lawful practice' of lamping to this case.


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    #10
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    Powers of stop and search generally relate to persons, vehicles, vessels and stationary aircraft in a public place. In most situations searches of private buildings require warrants which is not covered under stop and search.


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    #11
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,031 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Cass wrote: »

    The act of lamping for foxes is legal when it's NOT done in a car and only on lands you have permission to be on. I'd also assume the 60ft rule applies.
    From a public road or from a vehicle??:confused:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #12
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    meathstevie wrote: »
    Powers of stop and search generally relate to persons, vehicles, vessels and stationary aircraft in a public place. In most situations searches of private buildings require warrants which is not covered under stop and search.
    Correct as per point four of my initial post:
    Cass wrote:
    They can enter onto any lands if they suspect someone of being in violation of the Wildlife ACt, but NOT into any building or dwelling.
    cookimonster wrote: »
    Got you, I never thought of the car aspect.....minor hommer moment, I was illogicaly applying the 'lawful practice' of lamping to this case.
    Had a similar moment some time back when a lad could not get a license for a 22 pistol because the mag was 10 round and the Super wouldn't accept a block in it. I kept on telling him to just get the restricted license not once realising it's not the gun, but the restricted licenses that cannot be got. In my head restricted meant centrefire. :o
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    From a public road or from a vehicle??:confused:
    You cannot discharge a firearm within 18mtrs/20ds/60ft of a road (centre) and lamping from a vehicle is the same a shooting from one, legally, and cannot be done. Only exception is checking livestock (iow not hunting).
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    #13
    garv123
    Registered Users Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    Cass wrote: »
    Correct as per point four of my initial post:

    ) and lamping from a vehicle is the same a shooting from one, legally, and cannot be done. .

    This is the funny bit, the go by the definition "to search for" which is what you're doing while lamping.

    But people do it all the time deer/pheasant shooting in daylight and no one bats an eyelid.
    Drive along, spot something out the window, off they go to shoot it. Same thing..


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    #14
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    During daylight you're not using a lamp. As they cannot regulate your eyes (at least not yet) they cannot do you for it.

    As for the rifle during daylight. You can drive around and look, but once you don't shoot from the car you're golden.
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    #15
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    NPWS has successfully prosecuted people in the past for duck shooting from boats while under mechanical propulsion. It doesn't only apply to cars or tractors....

    Using a lamp from the public road while on foot on the other hand is perfectly legal.

    If you wanted to get really technical about it you can't use for example the front wheel of a tractor that's been parked up in a field as a support to take a shot at a deer, lying prone on top of a disconnected flatbed trailer on the other hand is perfectly legal.


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    #16
    howa .223
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭howa .223


    Isn't there a section 35 or something you require to lamp in the first place? I may be wrong.


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    #17
    juice1304
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    howa .223 wrote: »
    Isn't there a section 35 or something you require to lamp in the first place? I may be wrong.

    You need a licence to lamp deer, normal lamping is fine.


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    #18
    howa .223
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭howa .223


    My bad it's actually section 36 had to go refresh the auld rules😀


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    #19
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    howa .223 wrote: »
    Isn't there a section 35 or something you require to lamp in the first place? I may be wrong.
    Decoys, etc.
    howa .223 wrote: »
    My bad it's actually section 36 had to go refresh the auld rules��
    Mechanically propelled vehicles.

    I think you means section 38 of the 1976 act, as amended by section 45 of the 2000 act, which states using a lamp, light, dazzling device, etc. for the hunting of protected wild birds/animals is an offence. The exception being for those carrying out research, tagging, etc. and only then under license.

    You don't need a license to lamp for foxes or other no protected species.
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    #20
    howa .223
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭howa .223


    However, if you wish to hunt from a vehicle (with or without a lamp regardless of whether the vehicle is stationary or moving), you must apply for a specific licence under Section 36 of the Wildlife Acts 1976 to 2012. An application for a license under Section 36 requires the applicant to specify the areas where he/she intends to hunt (county and townland) and the period for which the licence is required.

    This was what I was referring too, not exactly stating if it's for vermin control but had heard day of it.


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    #21
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    howa .223 wrote: »
    However, if you wish to hunt from a vehicle (with or without a lamp regardless of whether the vehicle is stationary or moving), you must apply for a specific licence under Section 36 of the Wildlife Acts 1976 to 2012. An application for a license under Section 36 requires the applicant to specify the areas where he/she intends to hunt (county and townland) and the period for which the licence is required.

    This was what I was referring too, not exactly stating if it's for vermin control but had heard day of it.

    You must also specify the species you are hunting. If you do a quick search you will find that until recently there was no actual application form although provisions where there to issue a permit. Now you will find an application form on the NPWS website. After an inquiry I have been told that they are actually issuing them, so it's not just for window dressing. The applications are assessed by the local ranger and passed on to the main office for the final decision. It isn't just a paper exercise.
    I would be in the mind set to advise lads to get them, let's make the whole thing of applying for them the 'norm' and if lads need to use vehicles for what ever reason then everything is above board.


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    #22
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    howa .223 wrote: »
    However, if you wish to hunt from a vehicle (with or without a lamp regardless of whether the vehicle is stationary or moving), you must apply for a specific licence under Section 36 of the Wildlife Acts 1976 to 2012. An application for a license under Section 36 requires the applicant to specify the areas where he/she intends to hunt (county and townland) and the period for which the licence is required.

    This was what I was referring too, not exactly stating if it's for vermin control but had heard day of it.
    Ah, i thought you were referring to lamping as per your first post:
    howa .223 wrote: »
    Isn't there a section 35 or something you require to lamp in the first place? I may be wrong.
    But if you meant driving a vehicle then section 36 covers that as does section 44 of the 2000 act.
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    #23
    howa .223
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭howa .223


    Sorry for the confusion bud, it's been a while since I needed to read up on the rules.


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    #24
    dto001
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭dto001


    I’m sorry to rehash this discussion but I think it might be prudent for the coming season!!!

    can anyone tell me if how far the rangers can go in relation to the new lead ban can they do me if I have lead cartridges in the car but I’m out shooting and have steel on me? Can they search my car on the basis they think there’s lead shot in the car but I’m outside and have steel shot with me? Or can they come on to my boat if I have steel shot and show them it but they still want to search it? Do the have to have a valid reason or can we expect a ranger just trying to ruin your shooting?

    someone told me today that they can take a shot mallard and check it for lead shot, do they have some onus of proof or just “they think so”

    cheers



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    #25
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,031 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Can they search my car on the basis they think there’s lead shot in the car but I’m outside and have steel shot with me? Or can they come on to my boat if I have steel shot and show them it but they still want to search it? Do the have to have a valid reason or can we expect a ranger to just try to ruin your shooting?


    From the start of the thread Cass's OP

    They have the power to search a vehicle but ONLY if they suspect it to be used in committing an offence. No searching just for the kicks of it, and they must explain their reason for stopping and wanting to search.


    My take on this,not any legal advice...

    IOW they must have, and explain their probable cause for stopping and searching your property. I'd question going from the original whether that entitles them to frisk you. But one thing I would do as with any interaction with people in authority is record all interactions with your phone, and esp STFU about anything apart from your mandatory required information. Which any lawyer will tell you to do anyway.

    So they have to have some good reason to suspect that you are going to with or from, are going to, or have used lead shot in these areas inc the buffer zone of 100 meters. I doubt a "Nah, just checking that you do !" will qualify. Also, it's pretty easy to check for steel shot,all they need is a magnet to test that it's steel.

    someone told me today that they can take a shot Mallard and check it for lead shot, do they have some onus of proof or just “they think so”

    Again all they would need is a magnet as that's what EU game dealers and hunters have been using for the last 20 years to pull steel shot and to stop dentists from getting rich on chipped teeth and crown work for folks biting on steel shot.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #26
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 8,087 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/106799309#Comment_106799309

    Correct, the NPWS rangers do not have the power to stop someone driving on a public road.

    There are only three types of people authorised to stop you driving on a public road, Gardai, Customs Officers or School Traffic Wardens.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #27
    J.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭J.R.



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034125#Comment_121034125

    There are only three types of people authorised to stop you driving on a public road, Gardai, Customs Officers or School Traffic Wardens.


    I also thought that these can legally stop traffic:

    • A qualified banksman -a person with a Stop/Go sign who is authorised by the Local Authority
    •  A person in charge of animals


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    #28
    Themole1990
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Themole1990


    I don't no much about npws but I made a call to them a couple of season's ago....actually an English man he was and told him about a man poaching on our lease taking in clients and asked could they do anything as he is well known for this in the area I was told not there problem contact the gaurds just curious as to would that be right when I contacted the gaurds they said call npws and still this man is seen at times obv9we work Monday to Friday and he's on the dole so he's going in mid week we had pictures of him on the lease with deer and a firearm and still gaurds did nothing or npws



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    #29
    deerhunter1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭deerhunter1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/106799481#Comment_106799481

    Cannot see myself stopping for anyone at night especially if I am carring a firearm, unless I can assertain that they are uniformed gardai.

    Even at that I wouldnt stop, maybe drive to nearest station or call gardai to assertain that they have personal the area.



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    #30
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,562 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Well it's been over 5 years since I posted that, but yeah, it's your own call as to what you do. I only give the information as best as I can and what you do with that is your own business.

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    #31
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,376 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135821#Comment_121135821

    Refusing to stop for uniformed guards might be play out as calmly as you suggest. Fine if the station is around the corner, if it is 10km away, it's wouldn't be clear that is what you are doing.



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