Rent

dudara · 21-08-2018 06:20PM

Something hs to give, but I don’t know what and I do t know when. It just isn’t sustainable

Students are being stretched to pay accommodation. If Mom & Dad are supporting them, then they’re often stretched too.

Young professionals are spending 50%+ of their salary just to rent. Heaven help you if you are a lower-paid worker in Dublin. You’ll be sleeping 6 in a single bunk bed in a grotty tenement.

Eventually even professional people will start to default on rent, or alternatively cut corners elsewhere such as health, food or basics.

Sunny Disposition · 21-08-2018 10:15PM

People need to start voting in a different way if they want change on this issue. Both FF and FG will let the market rip, the only type of intervention they are likely to make is giving grants to buyers which will drive up prices, or incentives to builders in the hopes that private enterprise will help accidentally.
Brexit is the canary in the mine for the established parties, the economy is going okay but not for everyone and there is going to be another big backlash if that doesn’t change. It’s a mad situation when people can’t aspire to buy homes, can’t even afford to rent them in many cases.

Edgware · 21-08-2018 10:21PM

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

People need to start voting in a different way if they want change on this issue. Both FF and FG will let the market rip, the only type of intervention they are likely to make is giving grants to buyers which will drive up prices, or incentives to builders in the hopes that private enterprise will help accidentally.
Brexit is the canary in the mine for the established parties, the economy is going okay but not for everyone and there is going to be another big backlash if that doesn’t change. It’s a mad situation when people can’t aspire to buy homes, can’t even afford to rent them in many cases.

Let's all vote for "three houses Adams" No sign of anyone goung to occupy his empty houses

Fr_Dougal · 21-08-2018 10:30PM

dudara wrote: »

Something hs to give, but I don’t know what and I do t know when. It just isn’t sustainable

Students are being stretched to pay accommodation. If Mom & Dad are supporting them, then they’re often stretched too.

Young professionals are spending 50%+ of their salary just to rent. Heaven help you if you are a lower-paid worker in Dublin. You’ll be sleeping 6 in a single bunk bed in a grotty tenement.

Eventually even professional people will start to default on rent, or alternatively cut corners elsewhere such as health, food or basics.

We’re in a tech bubble. Look at FB, Google, LinkedIn, the majority of these ‘tech’ companies. What are they? Advertising companies, overvalued advertising companies.

The bubble will burst, financial markets will contract, and the market will right itself. It will bring unemployment along with it.

mfceiling · 21-08-2018 10:33PM

Fol20 wrote: »

I’m all for protecting our own however the people that are immigrating to hear are highly skilled labour and add a lot of value to our economy. If you want to turn into the Japanese where they make it very difficult for other nationalities to move there, take a look at how well their economy is doing.

Are they really though? We're told we need more unskilled immigrant labour to do the jobs the "irish" won't/can't do. Who are stacking the shelves in dunnes? Sweeping the floors on building sites. Collecting the bins. Working behind the counter at Spar. I'll give you a guess and it's not Irish lads.

myshirt · 21-08-2018 10:37PM

Look, we've been through this before. The market teaches us not to panic. If I learned anything in this game, it's that a wife or a girlfriend will pass off a few 200 packs during visiting hours, supply will normalise, and we'll see cigarettes return to trading for a single handjob or less.

Sunny Disposition · 21-08-2018 10:55PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Are they really though? We're told we need more unskilled immigrant labour to do the jobs the "irish" won't/can't do. Who are stacking the shelves in dunnes? Sweeping the floors on building sites. Collecting the bins. Working behind the counter at Spar. I'll give you a guess and it's not Irish lads.

It’s not about the immigrants abilities or lack of though, the country just can’t absorb the amounts it has been taking in since 2003. That’s not to say that most of the Immigrants aren’t fine, hard working people. But bringing in too many people too quickly puts a strain on housing/infrastructure.

People don’t like to hear this, but the EU freedom of movement approach isn’t the best one. Restrictions, even liberal ones like Australia, are much more likely to be successful. It’s crazy, but if 300,000 people from other EU countries opt to come to Ireland next year they have to be let. The fact Ireland wouldn’t be ready for it has no bearing at all.

Pragmatism is replaced by ideology when it comes to EU immigration policy. I don’t believe it’s in any way racist to say so.

Fol20 · 21-08-2018 11:10PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Are they really though? We're told we need more unskilled immigrant labour to do the jobs the "irish" won't/can't do. Who are stacking the shelves in dunnes? Sweeping the floors on building sites. Collecting the bins. Working behind the counter at Spar. I'll give you a guess and it's not Irish lads.

They would normally be unskilled young labour who may typically have larger families thus giving more into the tax system and generating revenue. Just take a look at how the Japanese model as works and there is a lot of cons to blocking the society.

mfceiling · 21-08-2018 11:23PM

Fol20 wrote: »

They would normally be unskilled young labour who may typically have larger families thus giving more into the tax system and generating revenue.

however the people that are immigrating to hear are highly skilled labour and add a lot of value to our economy.

Which is it?

Fol20 · 22-08-2018 12:46AM

For european immigration, it can be both and you are right there can be a number of eastern european unskilled labour however i still consider this a good thing as we need a young vibrant workforce.

For countries outside eu, its mainly skilled labour.

Immigration is good for ireland and as mentioned, take a look at japan.

n97 mini · 22-08-2018 12:59AM

Dublin needs to go up. Sure it costs more per unit to build a 30+ storey building but there are plenty of people that are living in the suburbs that can afford it. Get them into high rise and it takes the pressure of the suburbs for those that want to live there... Families etc.

Additionally, many European cities are 6 to 8 stories tall outside of the high rise areas, whereas Dublin city centre has heaps of terraced bungalows. Around Connolly station is a case in point. While they may be quaint, they are the worst possible use of land.

KevinCavan · 22-08-2018 02:02AM

n97 mini wrote: »

Dublin needs to go up. Sure it costs more per unit to build a 30+ storey building but there are plenty of people that are living in the suburbs that can afford it. Get them into high rise and it takes the pressure of the suburbs for those that want to live there... Families etc.

Additionally, many European cities are 6 to 8 stories tall outside of the high rise areas, whereas Dublin city centre has heaps of terraced bungalows. Around Connolly station is a case in point. While they may be quaint, they are the worst possible use of land.

You would almost get the sense that the government doesn’t want to fix the housing crisis, that they would like to take credit for house prices going through the roof, as that has been our measure of the economy going well.

KevinCavan · 22-08-2018 02:08AM

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It’s not about the immigrants abilities or lack of though, the country just can’t absorb the amounts it has been taking in since 2003. That’s not to say that most of the Immigrants aren’t fine, hard working people. But bringing in too many people too quickly puts a strain on housing/infrastructure.

People don’t like to hear this, but the EU freedom of movement approach isn’t the best one. Restrictions, even liberal ones like Australia, are much more likely to be successful. It’s crazy, but if 300,000 people from other EU countries opt to come to Ireland next year they have to be let. The fact Ireland wouldn’t be ready for it has no bearing at all.

Pragmatism is replaced by ideology when it comes to EU immigration policy. I don’t believe it’s in any way racist to say so.

I have nothing against the foreign workers, apart from the fact that the flood gates seem to be open and we haven’t got the buildings to house them all. Nobody has factored the mass migration to Ireland into any housing policy. I do fear that apart from the skilled foreign workers coming here to work, that we are taking in a cohort of foreigners willing to take welfare cheques and take advantage.

KevinCavan · 22-08-2018 02:27AM

If you can't afford a car, a holiday or your rent nowadays than you aren't middle class.[/quote]

Who is middle class in your book: Doctor, teacher, solicitor, college lecturer, factory manager, Garda, nurse, pub owner, vet, surgeon, psychiatrist...?

KevinCavan · 22-08-2018 02:35AM

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, the fact that some folk reckon that a middle class person or couple is no better off today than a working class family of the 70s is absolute lunacy.

I do take your point, but very few families can survive on one income now compared to then.I’m all for equal rights for women, but has most women working resulted in couples paying more for houses and the need for both parents to work to cover a huge mortgage? I think most women with a six month old baby would rather stay home with that baby at the end of maternity leave, but I’m sure i’m Sexist to even mention that.

ChikiChiki · 22-08-2018 04:15AM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

There's more than enough land here. The island could comfortably accommodate 5 times our current population. Rich or poor, mansions, renters and social housing, everyone needs somewhere to live. There needs to be a massive push to build more houses.

Housing is the number 1 problem facing the country at the moment, it was last year, and it will be next year too. Fine Gael will win or lose the next election on this issue.

They lose so because they do not have the capabilities to provide the correct solution.

whisky_galore · 22-08-2018 08:19AM

KevinCavan wrote: »

You would almost get the sense that the government doesn’t want to fix the housing crisis, that they would like to take credit for house prices going through the roof, as that has been our measure of the economy going well.

It suits many vested interests that the situation stays as it is.
For the moment at least.

Homeowners (who are more than happy that the value of their houses increase) are in for a nasty shock when their little dears mysteriously can't find accom for uni or work and they're handing out fists of money for rent or the kids are stuck at home with the auld ones.

jim salter · 22-08-2018 08:50AM

There are those out there that think this is simply 'the way it goes'. Well, it isn't. This is not a normal cycle in the same way as the previous cycles have not been normal.

Think about to what has lead to this point. Think why the rents are so high (and house price for that matter) while there are so many properties vacant (all owned by the same group of vulture funds)

Have a read of this : https://www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/ - it's an article written in October 2001 about an interview with Joseph Stiglitz (the World Bank’s former Chief Economist)

optogirl · 22-08-2018 08:53AM

Assetbacked wrote: »

Leave the country. The next election will turn up some headbangers like SF or FF because the economy maybe strong but this has not translated into better finances for the vast majority of renters (effectively anyone under the age of 35).

and over

Keyzer · 22-08-2018 08:53AM

Not sure if this angle has been covered or if anyone is interested but thought I'd post it anyway.

I'm an accidental landlord. I bought a house at the worst possible time 10 years ago (my bad, not looking for a hug) and lost over 100K on it. Time moved on, things improved and we moved but I was damned if I was going to walk away with nothing. So we rented out the house.

I charge €1800 a month for a 3 bed house in Dublin 15.

After the mortgage is paid, I am left with nothing from the remaining income - absolutely nothing. All remaining money goes to the tax man.

Obviously, I'm in a better position than most given the mortgage is being chipped away every month but, other than that, I make nothing from the rental income.

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high.

My two cents.

22-08-2018 08:58AM

KevinCavan wrote: »

I do take your point, but very few families can survive on one income now compared to then.I’m all for equal rights for women, but has most women working resulted in couples paying more for houses and the need for both parents to work to cover a huge mortgage? I think most women with a six month old baby would rather stay home with that baby at the end of maternity leave, but I’m sure i’m Sexist to even mention that.

Of course many would quite likely want to stay at home with their 6 month old baby but not if
- their husband took their only car to work and they were going to have to walk or public transport everywhere until he came home
- they could have no/very few weekends away or a decent annual foreign holiday
- they had little disposable income after the essentials were bought
- only eating out a handful of times a year

ChikiChiki · 22-08-2018 09:00AM

jim salter wrote: »

There are those out there that think this is simply 'the way it goes'. Well, it isn't. This is not a normal cycle in the same way as the previous cycles have not been normal.

Think about to what has lead to this point. Think why the rents are so high (and house price for that matter) while there are so many properties vacant (all owned by the same group of vulture funds)

Have a read of this : https://www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/ - it's an article written in October 2001 about an interview with Joseph Stiglitz (the World Bank’s former Chief Economist)

Our apathy annoys the hell out of me. People do not demand better and settle for mediocrity and being screwed over. Nothing is improving as you would expect with an upturn in the economy.

Healthcare, car Insurance, ****e legal system, no housing availability, poor public transport. The country is an absolute mess for a first world country.

I sit here saying that from abroad where I can see the Sydney Harbour bridge from my apartment and have a 5 min commute to work for less than the rental price relatively speaking as living in Maynooth. Why would I bother going back to that mess.

Samuel T. Cogley · 22-08-2018 09:01AM

Accidental LL's and indeed some investors are exiting the market. It's only going to get worse as the CGT exemption matures. People aren't willing to enter the market as the regulation is too much in favour of the tenant. You're going to be left with people renting a 3 bed house to 15 people at the one end, and REITs in choice locations and very high rents at the other and very little inbetween.

Those (including many in the government) who wanted rid of small time landlords are getting their wish.

22-08-2018 09:04AM

Keyzer wrote: »

..............

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high............

I don't think it is tbh, go back 5 years and the taxation was the same but rents were on the floor.
Little demand and plenty supply

Now the opposite is true.

Taxation is viewed by many as a mess on rental income as they don't understand what's going on. Accidental landlords essentially borrowed to invest, borrowing to invest is quite often a fairly flawed concept and when it's exacerbated by the purchase price and thus the amount borrowed being artificially high then the fact that you make no profit from your investment but in time the asset will be yours is entirely reasonable. There's no total mess on the taxation side. The interest on the mortgage is tax deductible, the capital payment isn't, rightly so.

Samuel T. Cogley · 22-08-2018 09:08AM

Augeo wrote: »

I don't think it is tbh, go back 5 years and the taxation was the same but rents were on the floor.
Little demand and plenty supply
Now the opposite is true.

Five years ago many of us were locked in as selling was worse than taking the monthly hit. Now it's possible to sell or if you're mad enough, stay in and try to make a decent ROI despite the tax with high rents.

thomas 123 · 22-08-2018 09:13AM

Augeo wrote: »

Of course many would quite likely want to stay at home with their 6 month old baby but not if
- their husband took their only car to work and they were going to have to walk or public transport everywhere until he came home
- they could have no/very few weekends away or a decent annual foreign holiday
- they had little disposable income after the essentials were bought
- only eating out a handful of times a year

You forgot to add:

Cant afford to save at all - let alone for a rainy day.
Cant afford to contribute to a pension.
Probably cant put money aside for their children.
Cant afford health insurance.

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

22-08-2018 09:21AM

thomas 123 wrote: »

............

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

The minimum wage for an Experienced adult worker is €9.55, for a 39 hour week that's €19367.4/annum.

I don't think it's feasible to support a family on 1.8 times the minimum wage tbh.

I know a few single income households but they'd be not Dublin based and the income would be €60k+ / 3+ times the minimum wage.

Notorious · 22-08-2018 09:25AM

thomas 123 wrote: »

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

I’d say that for someone on €35k, it would be impossible to rent and support a family. I’m currently on about €40k, I’ve nobody to support, and I’m renting in Dublin. The apartment is nothing too flash, just an average place. After putting a small amount to save each month, I’m penniless. Rental prices are extortionate.

22-08-2018 09:27AM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Five years ago many of us were locked in as selling was worse than taking the monthly hit. Now it's possible to sell or if you're mad enough, stay in and try to make a decent ROI despite the tax with high rents.

Again, making a ROI as well as paying off the money borrowed to "invest" is delirious.

Folk don't borrow money to invest in the stockmarket, doing so with property is somehow thought to be logical.

thomas 123 · 22-08-2018 09:29AM

Augeo wrote: »

The minimum wage for an Experienced adult worker is €9.55, for a 39 hour week that's €19367.4/annum.

I don't think it's feasible to support a family on 1.8 times the minimum wage tbh.

I know a few single income households but they'd be not Dublin based and the income would be €60k+ / 3+ times the minimum wage.

So esentially with those figures in mind - the majority of the population of Ireland would not be able to afford a child on a single income. Going by the industrial average of 45K. (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-the-average-full-time-wage-in-ireland-795670.html)

I of course am omitting welfare payments like child-allowance - I have no idea what they would amount to over the course of a year.

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