Consent classes for Irish rugby team

martingriff · 05-11-2018 01:48PM

wexie wrote: »

And they say romance isn't dead.....

I used that line in my college days a funny break the ice thing

LirW · 05-11-2018 01:52PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I was just making sure you know. Hopefully he won't be asked it in a quiz.

That little fella actually follows all ex-Ireland players, he knows everything including Paddy Jackson's current stats. My kid doesn't play Fortnite, it reads up Rugby News..... Nerd he is.

But yeah he certainly didn't understand what the trial was about. So I don't see anything wrong with having them taking these classes, even if it's just a box-ticking thing. We all have to do plenty of them during our lifetime, while they're boring, they usually serve their purpose und you take at least some bits out of it.

wexie · 05-11-2018 01:54PM

LirW wrote: »

My kid doesn't play Fortnite, it reads up Rugby News..... Nerd he is.

You think your kid is a nerd for not playing videogames?

freshpopcorn · 05-11-2018 01:55PM

I personally have no issue with a class like this. I honestly don't know will it make any difference tough.
I'd welcome a class tough on how to behave on a night out and look out for one another. This would of course include consent but lots of other things to.

Assetbacked · 05-11-2018 01:55PM

LirW wrote: »

Show me the hoards of women please that make a career out of that please :rolleyes:

What do you mean by "go throwing themselves at guys"? So if a woman gets raped or assaulted she shouldn't be surprised because she openly flirted with a guy or made out with him?

Anyway it's a brilliant idea because it sets a good example. I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.
A lot of athletes come from a line of athletes or managers, enjoy very good private education and some indeed are out of touch how the real world works and that a girl can do other things than just being a pretty WAG. There's a world difference in attitude between athletes that got scouted from a local club and one that had his name put down in Blackrock at birth and is destined to live up to their family's name.

Nothing bad came out of measures like that ever.

I'm just surprised that they don't talk about these things and situations in PR classes that they all probably have.

Well those sentences have demonstrated your irrational view on the topic (as you have linked girls being easy to being raped) and therefore are unlikely to accept the point.

Nonetheless;if you have ever been to a niteclub/bar in Dublin and some of the recognisable players are there there will never be a shortage of girls who climb over themselves to get to them. It is especially obvious in a niteclub as people are generally there to hook up. Remember a few years ago, the Conor Murray and Simon Zebo gangbang with the girl who ended up leaving the country in shame? The girl bragged about it to her friends after and unfortunately they made it all public but it was clear she wanted to bed them just because they were famous rugby players.

This doesn't mean the girls deserve to be raped, as you have indicated there may be a link to easy girls and rape. The point is that a yes/no consent class is pointless as a rapist will still rape. Since consent classes are being provided for guys to understand whether they should be proceeding with their actions and for girls to be empowered that it is okay to say "no", this opportunity should also be utilised to discuss attitudes and respect in general.

ANXIOUS · 05-11-2018 01:56PM

Wonder if the ladies team had to also undergo this "training".

LirW · 05-11-2018 01:57PM

wexie wrote: »

You think your kid is a nerd for not playing videogames?

A rugby nerd at least :pac: not much difference though in Watching YouTube videos about players and games or playing Fortnite me thinks, unless I have to rely on his knowledge in some quiz.

El_Duderino 09 · 05-11-2018 01:57PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

As previous posters have said, there's no harm in it. In fact, even they are being made to do it, it sets a good example. I think it was mentioned in the thread specifically dedicated to the Jackson trial but the Seconds Captain podcast about consent with Sadlier (who runs similar programmes with schools) did an excellent job of highlighting how out of touch sports people can be in this regard.

Sadlier does an amazing job of showing how relevant the discussions he has are for sportspeople and for the transition year students he speaks with.

It’s always amusing to see people belittle the idea of discussing consent because it’s all so obvious, then brush over any differences in understanding and continue to say it’s obvious to everyone.

Fair play to the IRFU for protecting their players by making sure they’re informed.

PlaneSpeeking · 05-11-2018 02:02PM

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Wonder if the ladies team had to also undergo this "training".

Nope. I asked when my workplace was suggesting them.

There are religious exceptions for one particular faith (but no others) and when asked would women go the reply came "why ?????"

Wibbs · 05-11-2018 02:07PM

LirW wrote: »

Show me the hoards of women please that make a career out of that please :rolleyes:

Well he didn't say "hoards" for a start. Secondly no matter what the scenario, there's zero excuse for sexual assault.

However there most certainly are some women who while not making a career out of it, do make it a mission to "marry well"(though when they do, the career usually takes a break). The rugger bugger scene has always had that. It being generally a more well heeled middle class D4 sport at the playing end of things anyway. They hang out where the best pickings are and make their way into the clique and take it from there. The ones with brains avoid the "easy" label mind you. Having grown up around that scene to one degree or other I can think of four or five such women like this. And that was more at the schools, club, county level, at national and international level it's even more in play. Fame of any nature, local or international is chock full of hangers on and among that group are a lot of women, some are fans, some are groupies, some want to attach themselves to players more permanently. .

PlaneSpeeking · 05-11-2018 02:08PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well he didn't say "hoards" for a start. Secondly no matter what the scenario, there's zero excuse for sexual assault.

However there most certainly are some women who while not making a career out of it, do make it a mission to "marry well"(though when they do, the career usually takes a break). The rugger bugger scene has always had that. It being generally a more well heeled middle class D4 sport at the playing end of things anyway. They hang out where the best pickings are and make their way into the clique and take it from there. The ones with brains avoid the "easy" label mind you. Having grown up around that scene to one degree or other I can think of four or five such women like this. And that was more at the schools, club, county level, at national and international level it's even more in play. Fame of any nature, local or international is chock full of hangers on and among that group is a lot of women, she are fans, some are groupies, some want to attach themselves to players more permanently. .

Max Clifford before his fall from grace, made an entire career out of kiss and tell stories.

Where there's a drunk celebrity there'll be a slapper ready to get her 15 minutes.

upandcumming · 05-11-2018 02:14PM

LirW wrote: »

I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.

I hope you told him that he was driven out of his home by clowns didn't like an easily-found verdict in a trial in a different country?

El_Duderino 09 · 05-11-2018 02:22PM

upandcumming wrote: »

LirW wrote: »

I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.

I hope you told him that he was driven out of his home by clowns didn't like an easily-found verdict in a trial in a different country?

I hope they didn’t use it as a point scoring exercises and told the child an age appropriate version that would help them understand.

Triceratops Ballet · 05-11-2018 02:23PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Nope. I asked when my workplace was suggesting them.

There are religious exceptions for one particular faith (but no others) and when asked would women go the reply came "why ?????"

that to me would suggest that it is, at least in your workplace, literally just a box ticking exercise. Excluding women from it makes it seem like a) a punishment and b)kind of meaningless in a broader societal context. The objective of discussions around consent is supposed to lead to healthy discourse around the subject and breakdown of barriers in understanding from the perspective of all parties. Nobody is going to take it seriously if it is seen as a punitive measure.

LirW · 05-11-2018 02:25PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

Well those sentences have demonstrated your irrational view on the topic (as you have linked girls being easy to being raped) and therefore are unlikely to accept the point.

Nonetheless;if you have ever been to a niteclub/bar in Dublin and some of the recognisable players are there there will never be a shortage of girls who climb over themselves to get to them. It is especially obvious in a niteclub as people are generally there to hook up. Remember a few years ago, the Conor Murray and Simon Zebo gangbang with the girl who ended up leaving the country in shame? The girl bragged about it to her friends after and unfortunately they made it all public but it was clear she wanted to bed them just because they were famous rugby players.

This doesn't mean the girls deserve to be raped, as you have indicated there may be a link to easy girls and rape. The point is that a yes/no consent class is pointless as a rapist will still rape. Since consent classes are being provided for guys to understand whether they should be proceeding with their actions and for girls to be empowered that it is okay to say "no", this opportunity should also be utilised to discuss attitudes and respect in general.

Thanks for clarifying, like that it makes a lot more sense.
I think this (un) fortunately comes with fame. It's the same in every sports really and it's no secret that girls swoon over rich sport stars.

It is indeed a problematic playing field since there's a thin line and things can go wrong pretty quickly for either of them (looking at the Murray-Zebo fling).
Nonetheless, it's not wrong that they have to sit through these classes. I'm honestly surprised that this topic isn't already picked up in PR classes though. I know at the end of the day they'll do as they please but as mentioned before here, it's also some sort of security for the IRFU or the clubs that give themselves very family oriented and can't really afford having bad publicity.

One of the downsides of fame, eh?

hatrickpatrick · 05-11-2018 02:26PM

jimgoose wrote: »

The "lads" - a.k.a. "well-reared, educated grown men who should and do know better" - are demonstrated to have an terrible attitude to young women, and treated them abysmally.

So it's about thought-crime, not actual consent? There is no indication that anything non-consensual happened. Using disrespectful language in private is just that, a private matter. Both men and women do this constantly when in their private groups of friends, and no amount of Orwellian "re-education" is going to change that. Nor should it.

hatrickpatrick · 05-11-2018 02:28PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

They were found NOT GUILTY, meaning that the jury did not believe that the evidence presented by the prosecution was enough to rule out any possible doubt that they were guilty.

It's the same thing. Our society is founded on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Therefore a not guilty verdict = an innocent individual.

PlaneSpeeking · 05-11-2018 02:30PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So it's about thought-crime, not actual consent? There is no indication that anything non-consensual happened. Using disrespectful language in private is just that, a private matter. Both men and women do this constantly when in their private groups of friends, and no amount of Orwellian "re-education" is going to change that. Nor should it.

Quite frankly if we could be prosecuted for sexually demeaning thoughts and language I'd have been sharing a cell with the Mulhall sisters sometime around Season 2 of The Fall!

Having opinions such as those they shared is not a crime, nor should it be used to bootstrap a lame prosecution of a crime that simply did not happen.

Kintarō Hattori · 05-11-2018 02:31PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

As previous posters have said, there's no harm in it. In fact, even they are being made to do it, it sets a good example. I think it was mentioned in the thread specifically dedicated to the Jackson trial but the Seconds Captain podcast about consent with Sadlier (who runs similar programmes with schools) did an excellent job of highlighting how out of touch sports people can be in this regard.

I'd be very very annoyed if I was forced into doing something like this. Raised well, I'd consider myself a balanced individual who doesn't force himself upon anyone and knows what boundaries are and what no means. As said, it really seems like a box ticking exercise and I'd do my best to resist having to take part in it if I could.

05-11-2018 02:31PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I personally have no issue with a class like this. I honestly don't know will it make any difference tough.
I'd welcome a class tough on how to behave on a night out and look out for one another. This would of course include consent but lots of other things to.

Exactly it would hardly stop Larry Murphy/ted bundy if they had these magical classes Louise o Neill /una mullaly espouses

lalababa · 05-11-2018 02:34PM

professore wrote: »

I have nothing much to say on this except that if the prospect of having your reputation and career destroyed and a possible jail sentence don't put you off then some consent classes certainly won't.

A case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted. I'm not sure of the value of consent classes - I see them similar to "drink responsibly" or "don't murder anyone" classes.

[url] https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/irfu-tackles-fallout-from-belfast-rape-trial-37491941.html[/url]

Maybe they should get guilty until proven innocent but still guilty classes. Or being being sacked because of sponsorship optics classes or the cruel world of professional sports classes. These classes might stand them well!

lalababa · 05-11-2018 02:34PM

professore wrote: »

I have nothing much to say on this except that if the prospect of having your reputation and career destroyed and a possible jail sentence don't put you off then some consent classes certainly won't.

A case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted. I'm not sure of the value of consent classes - I see them similar to "drink responsibly" or "don't murder anyone" classes.

[url] https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/irfu-tackles-fallout-from-belfast-rape-trial-37491941.html[/url]

Maybe they should get guilty until proven innocent but still guilty classes. Or being being sacked because of sponsorship optics classes or the cruel world of professional sports classes. These classes might stand them well!

Triceratops Ballet · 05-11-2018 02:35PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Quite frankly if we could be prosecuted for sexually demeaning thoughts and language I'd have been sharing a cell with the Mulhall sisters sometime around Season 2 of The Fall!

Having opinions such as those they shared is not a crime, nor should it be used to bootstrap a lame prosecution of a crime that simply did not happen.

Having thoughts like that aren't a crime, the messages were submitted in evidence for another crime. The players weren't punished by the courts for a bunch of whatsapp messages.
A bunch of employees who brought the name of the organisation they work for into disrepute had disciplinary action taken against them, if they feel they were punished unfairly or outside of the terms of their contracts, they are entitled to pursue a case against the IRFU.

PlaneSpeeking · 05-11-2018 02:38PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Having thoughts like that aren't a crime, the messages were submitted in evidence for another crime. The players weren't punished by the courts for a bunch of whatsapp messages.
A bunch of employees who brought the name of the organisation they work for into disrepute had disciplinary action taken against them, if they feel they were punished unfairly or outside of the terms of their contracts, they are entitled to pursue a case against the IRFU.

And the minute they do the Mulally etc crowd are on them. Can't win.

Oh and they may have been "submitted in evidence" but as they were found not guilty, and we operate on "innocent till proven guilty" there was no crime.

I'm sure you'd like there to have been but there was not.

hatrickpatrick · 05-11-2018 02:38PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Having thoughts like that aren't a crime, the messages were submitted in evidence for another crime. The players weren't punished by the courts for a bunch of whatsapp messages.
A bunch of employees who brought the name of the organisation they work for into disrepute had disciplinary action taken against them, if they feel they were punished unfairly or outside of the terms of their contracts, they are entitled to pursue a case against the IRFU.

How did "they" bring anything into disrepute? If anyone brought the sport into disrepute it was either the CPS or the media. Conversations held entirely in private and then leaked to the public by others, which bring something into disrepute, are not the fault of those who held those conversations but those who publicised them.

Paulzx · 05-11-2018 02:38PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I'd be very very annoyed if I was forced into doing something like this. Raised well, I'd consider myself a balanced individual who doesn't force himself upon anyone and knows what boundaries are and what no means. As said, it really seems like a box ticking exercise and I'd do my best to resist having to take part in it if I could.

I would be of the same opinion. I was raised to know the difference between right and wrong. It's an insult to basically be regarded as a potential rapist and to be told you need programming to ensure it doesn't happen.

The amount of men capable of raping a women is miniscule compared to the amount who would be abhorred by the thought of taking advantage of a women by force or if she was inebriated or vulnerable.

The predators who are capable of this will not be changed by a "consent" class.

Or am i a man that is completely out of touch with reality?

Sardonicat · 05-11-2018 02:38PM

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

The feminists are out of control in this country. Out of principle I would refuse to take part such a class.

Someone, please control these women!

PlaneSpeeking · 05-11-2018 02:40PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How did "they" bring anything into disrepute? If anyone brought the sport into disrepute it was either the CPS or the media. Conversations held entirely in private and then leaked to the public by others, which bring something into disrepute, are not the fault of those who held those conversations but those who publicised them.

+1

A single woman wants to have sex with a single man purely because he has some degree of fame and she wishes to bask in some of that fame.

How does he end up the morally bankrupt one ? He slept with someone for no other reason that she was there and up for it. What's wrong with that ?

ohnonotgmail · 05-11-2018 02:41PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And the minute they do the Mulally etc crowd are on them. Can't win.

Oh and they may have been "submitted in evidence" but as they were found not guilty, and we operate on "innocent till proven guilty" there was no crime.

I'm sure you'd like there to have been but there was not.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How did "they" bring anything into disrepute? If anyone brought the sport into disrepute it was either the CPS or the media. Conversations held entirely in private and then leaked to the public by others, which bring something into disrepute, are not the fault of those who held those conversations but those who publicised them.

The messages they sent to each other showed them up as arseholes. No company will want to associate themselves with arseholes. It just isnt good publicity.

PlaneSpeeking · 05-11-2018 02:42PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The messages they sent to each other showed them up as arseholes. No company will want to associate themselves with arseholes. It just isnt good publicity.

How is being an arsehole somehow morally abhorrent and being a tart is not ?

Consent classes for Irish rugby team

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