Regency Hotel shooting trial collapses following Detective Superintendent's suicide

paw patrol · 22-02-2019 9:20am

Garda PR game has started - colm fox was now under huge pressure painting him as a victim.

I find this startling as we have been force fed how experienced he was in these matters.
Also gangland crime has a poor success rate in convicting people , if he followed the plan and nobody was tried or jailed then so be it, sometimes the evidence isn't there. Being such an experienced garda this would be standard fare to him and his superiors.

something is afoot here.
Whether it's garda corruption or even worse collusion with organised crime remains to be seen.

Calltocall · 22-02-2019 9:30am

The other point to make is that the man could have been suffering from a mental illness which he hid and then combined with the stress of work/the trial, if he knew it was going to collapse, pushed him over the edge. On the outside looking in it may appear to be not enough to take your own life but when you live through extreme stress for a prolonged period it doesn’t take much for someone to snap, mental illness can effect anyone regardless of profession.

MrFresh · 22-02-2019 1:46pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Plus, what could be so compromising in the notes and USB stick.
If there was a deliberate attempt to frame a suspect you would hardly put it down in your notes in an incriminating manner and leave a trail of evidence to it.
If the notes incriminated him but he only realised it after the fact it would be a huge mistake but as you say, not the first and note the last.

There's no suggestion the Ak47 was planted on Hutch, so, maybe I've seen too much TV, but would a cop be too bothered about a gang member's innocence on exact charges with stone wall evidence of serious criminality like that?

He would have to have really taken it to heart re: that mistake causing the collapse of one of the biggest trials in the history of the state.

Unless there's something much murkier going on...

Those gangsters don't retire when they get away with a crime. He'd have just been focused on for the future crimes. There's nothing to indicate he was overly invested in the case.

paw patrol wrote: »

Garda PR game has started - colm fox was now under huge pressure painting him as a victim.

I find this startling as we have been force fed how experienced he was in these matters.
Also gangland crime as a poor success rate in convicting people , if he followed the plan and nobody was tried or jailed then so be it, sometimes the evidence isn't there. Being such an experienced garda this would be standard fare to him and his superiors.

something is afoot here.
Whether it's garda corruption or even worse collusion with organised crime remains to be seen.

So you've completely ruled out any possibility that he is just one of the hundreds of people every year, mostly men, who find life to be too much? And you've completely discounted the fact that Garda suicide rates are about six times the national average.

Chiparus · 22-02-2019 3:07pm

I wonder is there evidence that there was a common practice to collude in the identification of suspects on CCTV? Could other cases be similarly tainted?

If so, I expect this will be buried.

odyssey06 · 22-02-2019 4:04pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Those gangsters don't retire when they get away with a crime. He'd have just been focused on for the future crimes. There's nothing to indicate he was overly invested in the case...
So you've completely ruled out any possibility that he is just one of the hundreds of people every year, mostly men, who find life to be too much? And you've completely discounted the fact that Garda suicide rates are about six times the national average.

Completely ruled out no, but how many of those Gardai left suicide notes that cause the collapse of trials? That suggests it was more than just finding life too much. There was a specific angle to the trial.

Also, Garda suicide rates being 6 times the national average could be distorted somewhat by having a demographic 'bulge' in the gender and age profile at highest risk.
That said, Colm Fox was in one of the highest risk profile, middle aged men.

MrFresh · 22-02-2019 4:42pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Completely ruled out no, but how many of those Gardai left suicide notes that cause the collapse of trials? That suggests it was more than just finding life too much. There was a specific angle to the trial.

Also, Garda suicide rates being 6 times the national average could be distorted somewhat by having a demographic 'bulge' in the gender and age profile at highest risk.
That said, Colm Fox was in one of the highest risk profile, middle aged men.

Where are you getting the idea his suicide note collapsed the trial and not simply his death in itself?

hatrickpatrick · 22-02-2019 5:04pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Where are you getting the idea his suicide note collapsed the trial and not simply his death in itself?

It was widely reported in the media at the time that the notes he wrote pertained directly to the trial and presented "unprecedented conundrums" which would have to be sorted out (the trial judge's own words). He then adjourned the trial while GSOC examined the notes and the circumstances around his death, including seizing electronic devices which had belonged to him and some of his colleagues.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/regency-trial-adjourned-after-late-investigating-detective-s-notes-handed-in-1.3401701

It's very clear that this pertained directly to the detective's notes.

The Regency Hotel shooting trial has been adjourned for a month to allow the completion of an investigation into the circumstances of the death of Detective Supt Colm Fox, who had been the lead investigator into the fatal shooting.

Notes written by the late garda were handed into the Special Criminal Court on Thursday and read by the three judges.

The trial had been adjourned on Monday after the non-jury court heard that material in the case had presented some “unprecedented conundrums”.

This was after an earlier adjournment, almost two weeks ago, when the defence requested to be provided with copies of emails exchanged between four gardaí involved in the case.

And

Prosecuting counsel Seán Gillane SC on Thursday asked the court to receive and read some material, which was not opened to the court. This material was “notes authored by the late superintendent”.

Mr Gillane said these would “provide context” for the court regarding an application he would make. The court rose and the three judges read the notes.

When the judges returned, Mr Gillane said there was a separate investigation ongoing into the “circumstances of Colm Fox’s passing”.

“It’s felt having considered the matter carefully, it would be safer from everyone’s perspective to allow the investigation be completed before the trial will proceed,” he said.

Mr Gillane added that an adjournment seemed to be the “safest path forward, to make sure no-one is taken by surprise by anything”.

Michael O’Higgins SC, for Mr Hutch, said he had no objection to the trial being adjourned. Previously, he told the court the defence would be applying to have the trial “adjourned outright”.

Subsequently:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/end-is-in-sight-for-inquiry-into-death-of-lead-garda-in-regency-case-court-hears-37277327.html

Det Supt Fox died in February this year while the trial was in progress. The defence has since been given a copy of an interim report on the investigation into his death and the court was today told about progress being made on analyses of a mobile phone, laptop computer and two USB devices.

This morning, prosecutor Sean Gillane said an end to "the IT end of the investgation" was in sight. One of the devices had been accessed and it generated a "fairly significant amount of material."

Further examination of e-mails had been done and that analysis was near completion, he said.

Why would they go to such lengths to break into electronic devices and recover data from them in this way if the suicide note wasn't directly relevant to the trial? Occam's Razor suggests that he wrote something very explosive or at least out of left field which threw the whole trial into chaos. GSOC then analysed his electronics and those of some of his colleagues, prepared a report on what they found during that investigation, and it was on foot of this report that the trial collapsed.

It's very obvious at least to me that there's far, far more to this case than a Garda merely being overworked, and a trial stalling simply because he happened to be the lead investigator. Any speculation which does not tie these events together intrinsically is in my view a far more complicated and unlikely explanation than the obvious one - that this entire sequence of events was linked. The trial being adjourned over the photo identification, the photo being ruled admissible, the superintendent taking his own life less than a week later, and the trial subsequently collapsing on foot of his notes and an analysis of his and his colleagues communications.

Unless there are other major elements here which have not been disclosed to the public, it seems like a very obvious logical conclusion that the above described sequence of events occured as a chain of cause and effect, not as individual events which just happened to occur in that order, in that time period. Something he wrote led to the judge getting spooked and adjourning the trial to wait for GSOC's analysis. Something GSOC found led them to delve deep into his electronic devices, and something they found during that investigation irreparably damaged the prosecution's case against Patrick Hutch.

MrFresh · 22-02-2019 5:31pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It was widely reported in the media at the time that the notes he wrote pertained directly to the trial and presented "unprecedented conundrums" which would have to be sorted out (the trial judge's own words). He then adjourned the trial while GSOC examined the notes and the circumstances around his death, including seizing electronic devices which had belonged to him and some of his colleagues.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/regency-trial-adjourned-after-late-investigating-detective-s-notes-handed-in-1.3401701

It's very clear that this pertained directly to the detective's notes.

And

Subsequently:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/end-is-in-sight-for-inquiry-into-death-of-lead-garda-in-regency-case-court-hears-37277327.html

Why would they go to such lengths to break into electronic devices and recover data from them in this way if the suicide note wasn't directly relevant to the trial? Occam's Razor suggests that he wrote something very explosive or at least out of left field which threw the whole trial into chaos. GSOC then analysed his electronics and those of some of his colleagues, prepared a report on what they found during that investigation, and it was on foot of this report that the trial collapsed.

It's very obvious at least to me that there's far, far more to this case than a Garda merely being overworked, and a trial stalling simply because he happened to be the lead investigator. Any speculation which does not tie these events together intrinsically is in my view a far more complicated and unlikely explanation than the obvious one - that this entire sequence of events was linked. The trial being adjourned over the photo identification, the photo being ruled admissible, the superintendent taking his own life less than a week later, and the trial subsequently collapsing on foot of his notes and an analysis of his and his colleagues communications.

Unless there are other major elements here which have not been disclosed to the public, it seems like a very obvious logical conclusion that the above described sequence of events occured as a chain of cause and effect, not as individual events which just happened to occur in that order, in that time period. Something he wrote led to the judge getting spooked and adjourning the trial to wait for GSOC's analysis. Something GSOC found led them to delve deep into his electronic devices, and something they found during that investigation irreparably damaged the prosecution's case against Patrick Hutch.

So Occam's Razor is your smoking gun? You're making your own story out of little to no actual facts. Of course there are major elements that have not been disclosed to the public. Practically nothing has.

hatrickpatrick · 22-02-2019 6:32pm

MrFresh wrote: »

So Occam's Razor is your smoking gun? You're making your own story out of little to no actual facts. Of course there are major elements that have not been disclosed to the public. Practically nothing has.

Well what do you regard as a more likely explanation given everything I've posted above from news articles written at the time of the events occurring (as opposed to summaries written this week)? Do you reckon that the series of events directly related to the defence's case in this trial happened one after the other and in close proximity to eachother, entirely by chance?

Why would the GSOC report be relevant to the trial and why would it be immediately after its presentation to both legal teams that the charges would be dropped, unless it's directly related?

Correlation isn't causation, but there's a lot of correlation going on here.

MrFresh · 22-02-2019 7:05pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Well what do you regard as a more likely explanation given everything I've posted above from news articles written at the time of the events occurring (as opposed to summaries written this week)? Do you reckon that the series of events directly related to the defence's case in this trial happened one after the other and in close proximity to eachother, entirely by chance?

Why would the GSOC report be relevant to the trial and why would it be immediately after its presentation to both legal teams that the charges would be dropped, unless it's directly related?

Correlation isn't causation, but there's a lot of correlation going on here.

GSOC's report is relevant because it's an investigation into the death of a primary witness. You're assuming that the case collapsed because of something in the report. But it could just have easily been something else and they held out for the GSOC report for procedural reasons.

odyssey06 · 22-02-2019 7:19pm

MrFresh wrote: »

GSOC's report is relevant because it's an investigation into the death of a primary witness. You're assuming that the case collapsed because of something in the report. But it could just have easily been something else and they held out for the GSOC report for procedural reasons.

Unlikely. If he had died in a car crash would trial have collapsed? No.
There was something in the notes, or something in his conduct that demanded answers, over and above what he would typically have done.

Mrsmum · 22-02-2019 7:22pm

Just a thought - is it not very unusual for a person to take their own life at work while all other employees around them are working away? I wonder is there any message in that.

MrFresh · 22-02-2019 7:30pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Unlikely. If he had died in a car crash would trial have collapsed? No.

What are you basing that on? If he was the only one that could testify to the full chain of custody for an important piece of evidence then it very well could have.

Edgware · 22-02-2019 7:34pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Unlikely. If he had died in a car crash would trial have collapsed? No.
There was something in the notes, or something in his conduct that demanded answers, over and above what he would typically have done.

If his evidence was vital to the trial and he died any way of course the trial would collapse.
The Defence are entitled to examine every witness. Being dead doesnt allow evidence to be admitted unchallenged. Why do you think witnesses are intimidated or killed?

There are too many Lionel Hutz standard lawyers on this site who havent a clue about very basic rules of evidence.

22-02-2019 7:36pm

Calltocall wrote: »

It’s a difficult dilemna for the journalists particularly the ones that cover gangland as a lot of their info is fed to them by the police so what do they do when it’s the guards themselves that are under the microscope, it would take an incredibly brave one to step up as they are burning their relationships but at the end of the day didn’t they go to journalist school to get to the truth no matter the barriers, I’m doubtful though, I think a lot of the journos are too close to the police for the truth to come out.

Yeah, it's worth remembering that the journalists who really advanced and investigated the Maurice McCabe scandal were non-crime journalists like Katie Hannon and Mick Clifford - people who don't ordinarily rely upon AGS for their sources.

Pauls Williams & Cunningham were, at best, unhelpful towards uncovering of the truth in that case

If anything emerges from this story which reflects badly on AGS, I bet you a Supermacs meal deal, it won't come from a crime journalist.

odyssey06 · 22-02-2019 8:00pm

Edgware wrote: »

If his evidence was vital to the trial and he died any way of course the trial would collapse.
The Defence are entitled to examine every witness. Being dead doesnt allow evidence to be admitted unchallenged. Why do you think witnesses are intimidated or killed?

There are too many Lionel Hutz standard lawyers on this site who havent a clue about very basic rules of evidence.

Do you have a common law precedent for the absolute inadmissability of evidence if the death of a witness occurs - rather than withdrawal or refusal to tesifty?

Mr Justice Tony Hunt, presiding, had already ruled that the images should be admitted as evidence. Opportunity to cross examine the chain of that evidence had already passed.

This is being reported in the media specifically that the case collapsed because: "He [Fox] had left notes about the case that he could not be questioned about in court and so the trial process could go no further."
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/photos-were-key-evidence-in-hutch-trial-but-did-not-cause-case-to-collapse-1.3800840

If he had not left notes and just died in a car crash, the trial process would have continued.

The Satanist · 22-02-2019 11:23pm

It seems to me, at least, unusual that the defence would request those emails relating to identifying who was in that photo - why would they even suspect that there was an email trail? Surely that points to being tipped off that something was up? I mean, if your going to conspire with colleagues to make sure they ID someone, why email them, they're probably in the office beside you, no?

Also, Patrick Hutch was only ever arrested once before this. His face would surely be virtually unknown, especially in Ballymun Garda station because he wasn't from there. From the photos I've seen of him in the media, versus that photo of the man dressed as a woman, I could not say with any certainty at all that it was the same person.

MrFresh · 23-02-2019 9:35am

odyssey06 wrote: »

Do you have a common law precedent for the absolute inadmissability of evidence if the death of a witness occurs - rather than withdrawal or refusal to tesifty?

Mr Justice Tony Hunt, presiding, had already ruled that the images should be admitted as evidence. Opportunity to cross examine the chain of that evidence had already passed.

This is being reported in the media specifically that the case collapsed because: "He [Fox] had left notes about the case that he could not be questioned about in court and so the trial process could go no further."
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/photos-were-key-evidence-in-hutch-trial-but-did-not-cause-case-to-collapse-1.3800840

If he had not left notes and just died in a car crash, the trial process would have continued.

But your assumption is that his note revealed something new when it might also be that it contained some kind of affirmation of his given statements that he hoped would be accepted as a kind of dying declaration and his evidence would be accepted on the basis of it.

People are assuming something in the case pushed him to suicide when it might also be that he had been holding off on killing himself until the case was over and he simply gave up.

Then there is the other posters assumption that he did it in work as some kind of message where it is much more likely he did it there so he would be found fast by Gardaí rather than at home where he would be found by family. He's certainly not the first Garda to have done so.

odyssey06 · 23-02-2019 10:59am

MrFresh wrote: »

But your assumption is that his note revealed something new when it might also be that it contained some kind of affirmation of his given statements that he hoped would be accepted as a kind of dying declaration and his evidence would be accepted on the basis of it.
People are assuming something in the case pushed him to suicide when it might also be that he had been holding off on killing himself until the case was over and he simply gave up.
Then there is the other posters assumption that he did it in work as some kind of message where it is much more likely he did it there so he would be found fast by Gardaí rather than at home where he would be found by family. He's certainly not the first Garda to have done so.

I'm assuming it is because the case collapsed and the reason given is because of the information in the notes.
If it was the reasons you suggest, the case would have collapsed and the reason given because key prosecution witness now unavailable and his evidence could not be admitted. There would no need to mention or comment on any notes in relation to the trial.

Plus, this isn't a case where Fox was the sole witness and it is his word against the defendants and the witness has not yet been cross examined.

The evidence against Hutch are (a) the photos - already admitted, and (b) what was obtained on foot of the warrant. Surely Fox wouldn't be the only person who could testify to (b)?

So unless there is something new and specific in the notes to the case I am not seeing the reason yet why Fox's unavailability causes case to collapse.

The case was weighing so heavily on Fox's mind that in his last acts he left notes specifically relating to the trial - but you assume the case had nothing to do with pushing him to suicide?

MrFresh · 23-02-2019 1:09pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

I'm assuming it is because the case collapsed and the reason given is because of the information in the notes.
If it was the reasons you suggest, the case would have collapsed and the reason given because key prosecution witness now unavailable and his evidence could not be admitted. There would no need to mention or comment on any notes in relation to the trial.

Plus, this isn't a case where Fox was the sole witness and it is his word against the defendants and the witness has not yet been cross examined.

The evidence against Hutch are (a) the photos - already admitted, and (b) what was obtained on foot of the warrant. Surely Fox wouldn't be the only person who could testify to (b)?

So unless there is something new and specific in the notes to the case I am not seeing the reason yet why Fox's unavailability causes case to collapse.

The case was weighing so heavily on Fox's mind that in his last acts he left notes specifically relating to the trial - but you assume the case had nothing to do with pushing him to suicide?

I've no doubt it contributed to the overall pressure he was under. You think it was weighing on his mind so much he felt the need to kill himself and write notes about it. I think it's more like he reached the end of his tether and tried to cause as little collateral damage as possible when he killed himself. The notes were intended to assist the prosecution in his absence.

As to the collapse of the trial, the prosecution said "Sadly, the passing of Det Supt Colm Fox has resulted in a situation where the prosecution is not in a position to lead evidence on a number of evidential topics". That doesn't seem to support your claim. I think you vastly underestimate the level of proof required in a criminal trial. Every person who handled a piece of evidence must be able to give testimony to say it was not interfered with. Every conversation related to the detention and questioning must be supported by testimony. Every decision made must be justified. Every minute of the accused was detained in the Garda Station must have had cause and the lead investigator is the one to justify it. Others might be able to give snippets or support certain actions but only the lead investigator will have the full picture. Garda A can say he handed evidence to Fox and Garda B can say he received it from him but neither can say he didn't interfere with it or leave it somewhere unattended. So the chain of evidence is broken.

paw patrol · 23-02-2019 1:22pm

MrFresh wrote: »

So you've completely ruled out any possibility that he is just one of the hundreds of people every year, mostly men, who find life to be too much? And you've completely discounted the fact that Garda suicide rates are about six times the national average.

pretty much as his final note spoke of an error of judgement which would indicate it was something specific driving it.

professore · 23-02-2019 1:24pm

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

She left at 17 many years ago when she fell pregnant first (ran away basically so her parents wouldn’t make her get rid) and returned in 1990 when getting a good job in Dundalk.

It’s a horrible country to live in. I live with my girlfriend both earning 30,000 (I work every Sat aswell overtime to reach 30,000) with 1 kid. We have less disposable income than our neighbours who neither have a job, HAP pay there house, free childcare, free prams etc off the social etc...

Then you see scum like this clown laughing at us after murdering someone as he walks free

And free legal aid too

MrFresh · 23-02-2019 1:34pm

paw patrol wrote: »

pretty much as his final note spoke of an error of judgement which would indicate it was something specific driving it.

Can you post the transcript of that note?

joe swanson · 23-02-2019 1:48pm

Some pretty horrendous posts on here . A decent man is dead and people are speculating on why he would end his own life and casting aspersions on his character without knowing any facts, just speculating. It's pretty low and disgusting. Thread should close.

odyssey06 · 23-02-2019 2:03pm

MrFresh wrote: »

As to the collapse of the trial, the prosecution said "Sadly, the passing of Det Supt Colm Fox has resulted in a situation where the prosecution is not in a position to lead evidence on a number of evidential topics". That doesn't seem to support your claim. I think you vastly underestimate the level of proof required in a criminal trial. Every person who handled a piece of evidence must be able to give testimony to say it was not interfered with. Every conversation related to the detention and questioning must be supported by testimony. Every decision made must be justified. Every minute of the accused was detained in the Garda Station must have had cause and the lead investigator is the one to justify it. Others might be able to give snippets or support certain actions but only the lead investigator will have the full picture. Garda A can say he handed evidence to Fox and Garda B can say he received it from him but neither can say he didn't interfere with it or leave it somewhere unattended. So the chain of evidence is broken.

It didn't take 1 year since Fox's death to come to that conclusion. The prosecution would have been abandoned straight away if that was the real reason.
Nothing changed in 12 months, Fox still wasn't there to lead evidence.

What changed utterly was...
February 7th 2018, the court was told what was being sought was disclosure of e-mails between four gardai involved in the case.
Michael O’Higgins SC, defending, explained an issue had arisen in relation to garda statements, matters that were omitted and new statements that came together and “hit every single note on the scale."

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 senior investigator in the case Det Supt Colm Fox was found dead at Ballymun Garda Station. His official firearm was recovered at the scene, foul play was not suspected and it was treated as a personal tragedy.

The following Tuesday, February 13, Judge Hunt adjourned the case again after being told of Det Sgt Fox’s death.

On February, 19, 2018 Mr O’Higgins said new material had been provided which he needed more time to consider. The material had presented “unprecedented conundrums” for the prosecution, Sean Gillane SC, prosecuting, said.

MrFresh · 23-02-2019 2:19pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

It didn't take 1 year since Fox's death to come to that conclusion. The prosecution would have been abandoned straight away if that was the real reason.
Nothing changed in 12 months, Fox still wasn't there to lead evidence.

What changed utterly was...
February 7th 2018, the court was told what was being sought was disclosure of e-mails between four gardai involved in the case.
Michael O’Higgins SC, defending, explained an issue had arisen in relation to garda statements, matters that were omitted and new statements that came together and “hit every single note on the scale."

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 senior investigator in the case Det Supt Colm Fox was found dead at Ballymun Garda Station. His official firearm was recovered at the scene, foul play was not suspected and it was treated as a personal tragedy.

The following Tuesday, February 13, Judge Hunt adjourned the case again after being told of Det Sgt Fox’s death.

On February, 19, 2018 Mr O’Higgins said new material had been provided which he needed more time to consider. The material had presented “unprecedented conundrums” for the prosecution, Sean Gillane SC, prosecuting, said.

Right, the conundrum of whether a suicide note could be given any evidential value or whether additional evidence could be found to support what was in the note.

odyssey06 · 23-02-2019 5:01pm

joe swanson wrote: »

Some pretty horrendous posts on here . A decent man is dead and people are speculating on why he would end his own life and casting aspersions on his character without knowing any facts, just speculating. It's pretty low and disgusting. Thread should close.

I've no idea if he was or was not a decent man, not sure what aspersions have been cast here on his character to compare to:
A senior counsel in open court has effectively accused him of participation in a miscarriage of justice in a murder trial.
GSOC are officially investigating that "the circumstances giving rise to the death of the late Det Supt Fox".

But yeah, attempt to shut down debate on an internet forum.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 23-02-2019 6:40pm

Criminal informer wrote: »

Two detectives not witnesses! Even the reporters are saying there's a lot more to come out, to say he got aquitted just because of ID is naive. The longer gardai stay quite the more rumours will follow as to why.

Typical of the ridiculous manner which AGS treats the media. In every other country in the world they have press releases where they provide info to prevent speculation and rumour. Here they say nothing and when they do it’s usually the usual shíte line of we don’t comment on cases. AGS need to come out if the dark ages and speak up for themselves but it’ll never change unril the promotion system of only promoting those who lick arse continues.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 23-02-2019 6:45pm

grahambo wrote: »

Welcome to Boards.ie fonesmasher1, great first post.

1 post.

Joined 3 days ago.

Permabanned? :eek:

Cee-Jay-Cee · 23-02-2019 6:49pm

Macdarack wrote: »

Flat cap Murray seemed to be easily recognised in the photo after the shooting, I know he died from an illness but how was he not in custody following the murder, was he in hiding?

He was arrested in NI and extradition process started but due to his illness the court decided not to grant his extradition....as far as I can remember.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 23-02-2019 6:56pm

Dante7 wrote: »

The GSOC investigation will be a whitewash. They are a toothless organisation. When they tried to raise awareness about how they were being spied on, they were comprehensively put in their place.

But they weren’t being spied on, they created a story out of nothing and then started crying when nobody took any notice. You are correct though that they are a toothless organisation.

paw patrol · 23-02-2019 7:47pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Can you post the transcript of that note?

no

Dante7 · 23-02-2019 8:08pm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

But they weren’t being spied on, they created a story out of nothing and then started crying when nobody took any notice. You are correct though that they are a toothless organisation.

One of the top private security agencies in the world maintain that GSOC were being spied on.

odyssey06 · 23-02-2019 8:20pm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

But they weren’t being spied on, they created a story out of nothing and then started crying when nobody took any notice. You are correct though that they are a toothless organisation.

They should assume they were being spied on when AGS when being run by a corrupt disgusting pondscum specimen of humanity like Callinan.

SEPT 23 1989 · 23-02-2019 8:53pm

No honest journalist will risk everything to go after the truth in this story

And could you blame them

MrFresh · 23-02-2019 10:05pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

I've no idea if he was or was not a decent man, not sure what aspersions have been cast here on his character to compare to:
A senior counsel in open court has effectively accused him of participation in a miscarriage of justice in a murder trial.

Which senior counsel?

odyssey06 wrote: »

GSOC are officially investigating that "the circumstances giving rise to the death of the late Det Supt Fox".

But yeah, attempt to shut down debate on an internet forum.

You think it is somehow noteworthy that GSOC are investigating the death of a Garda in a Garda station with a Garda issue weapon?

paw patrol wrote: »

no

Didn't think so.

odyssey06 · 23-02-2019 10:08pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Which senior counsel?
You think it is somehow noteworthy that GSOC are investigating the death of a Garda in a Garda station with a Garda issue weapon?

Michael O'Higgins, defending, explained that an issue had arisen in relation to garda statements, matters that were omitted and new statements that came together and "hit every single note on the scale".
He had made a case in legal argument that the statements were a "blatant and obvious cog from one to the other"
https://www.herald.ie/news/courts/setbacks-plagued-trial-but-mystery-surrounds-what-brought-it-down-37837352.html

I think it noteworthy that the investigation isn't into his death, but the circumstances giving rise to his death. And the investigation has taken a year to start.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-02-2019 10:13pm

Dante7 wrote: »

One of the top private security agencies in the world maintain that GSOC were being spied on.

I think that was a stray Xbox.

hatrickpatrick · 23-02-2019 10:14pm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

He was arrested in NI and extradition process started but due to his illness the court decided not to grant his extradition....as far as I can remember.

Ah, another person who (like most, unfortunately) didn't read the text of the Cooke Report and only the media spin based on selective leaks which appeared the day before it was actually published. The security company, Verrimus, who oversaw the surveillance sweep of the GSOC office were very clearly and blatantly harassed in multiple ways, and several of their findings remain entirely unexplainable if the "nothing suspicious took place" argument is applied.

MrFresh · 23-02-2019 10:29pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Michael O'Higgins, defending, explained that an issue had arisen in relation to garda statements, matters that were omitted and new statements that came together and "hit every single note on the scale".
He had made a case in legal argument that the statements were a "blatant and obvious cog from one to the other"
https://www.herald.ie/news/courts/setbacks-plagued-trial-but-mystery-surrounds-what-brought-it-down-37837352.html

I think it noteworthy that the investigation isn't into his death, but the circumstances giving rise to his death. And the investigation has taken a year to start.

You just keep going with this story you have in your head. The defence trying to get an ID thrown out and a particular turn of phrase is not evidence of some big conspiracy. Their only real chance at not guilty was to get the ID or photo thrown out. It's what they do. GSOC You could be a screen writer for Red Rock you know? Start by googling "Gardaí are investigating the circumstances" and see how many hits you get.

odyssey06 · 24-02-2019 10:32am

MrFresh wrote: »

You just keep going with this story you have in your head. The defence trying to get an ID thrown out and a particular turn of phrase is not evidence of some big conspiracy. Their only real chance at not guilty was to get the ID or photo thrown out. It's what they do. GSOC You could be a screen writer for Red Rock you know? Start by googling "Gardaí are investigating the circumstances" and see how many hits you get.

You get worked up about conspiracy theories when someone posts on boards, yet when SC makes these allegations in court and it is reported in every news outlet in the state you just blink?
What if the SC is right and there was Garda collusion in relation to the photo and the ID?
I suppose he must be guilty if AGS know he did it!

It's clear that something unprecedented is happening here, if it was just the death of Fox the prosecution would have abandoned 12 months ago.

paw patrol · 24-02-2019 12:14pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Didn't think so.

you ask for a transcript knowing the letter hasn't been release but you also know it has been widely reported (and never refuted) that the letter referenced an error of judgement (that is the only point I made).
Also many of the reporters who state this are well-in with the gardai and have insider knowledge.

Yet come back with sh1tty retorts that offer nothing. You are a strange person.

MrFresh · 24-02-2019 12:39pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

You get worked up about conspiracy theories when someone posts on boards, yet when SC makes these allegations in court and it is reported in every news outlet in the state you just blink?
What if the SC is right and there was Garda collusion in relation to the photo and the ID?
I suppose he must be guilty if AGS know he did it!

It's clear that something unprecedented is happening here, if it was just the death of Fox the prosecution would have abandoned 12 months ago.

Something unprecedented has happened. The lead investigator of a murder case has died during a trial. Why you think it needs to be something more I don't know. And why you think a defence barrister challenging evidence is somehow exceptional is also beyond me. And again I point out, even the allegation of a screw up in the case is correct, the chances of it pushing an experienced Garda to suicide are very low.

paw patrol wrote: »

you ask for a transcript knowing the letter hasn't been release but you also know it has been widely reported (and never refuted) that the letter referenced an error of judgement (that is the only point I made).
Also many of the reporters who state this are well-in with the gardai and have insider knowledge.

Yet come back with sh1tty retorts that offer nothing. You are a strange person.

Never refuted by who? You're just clinging on to whatever reporting suits your theory. Occam's Razor was previously mentioned as being the reason why this conspiracy must be true. But really the most simple and obvious explanation is as the prosecution said. The lead investigator is dead and the state no longer has a full case.

paw patrol · 24-02-2019 1:13pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Never refuted by who? You're just clinging on to whatever reporting suits your theory. Occam's Razor was previously mentioned as being the reason why this conspiracy must be true. But really the most simple and obvious explanation is as the prosecution said. The lead investigator is dead and the state no longer has a full case.

I think you've lost the run of yourself

odyssey06 · 24-02-2019 1:16pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Something unprecedented has happened. The lead investigator of a murder case has died during a trial. Why you think it needs to be something more I don't know. And why you think a defence barrister challenging evidence is somehow exceptional is also beyond me. And again I point out, even the allegation of a screw up in the case is correct, the chances of it pushing an experienced Garda to suicide are very low.

If that was the unprecedented aspect, why did the DPP need 12 months to drop the case?
Fox isn't going to come back to life between February 2018 and February 2019.

What was unprecedented was something in the notes left by Fox, which related to the new information that defence counsel was seeking in the week before his death, information that the defence counsel was pointing to Garda collusion to pervert the course of justice. Such Garda activity would be exceptional, and perhaps this time the defence counsel's gambit hit the mark.

On the face of it it does seem an unlikely reason, but then it must have been at the forefront of his mind or he would not have left final notes about it.

Edgware · 24-02-2019 3:09pm

Dante7 wrote: »

One of the top private security agencies in the world maintain that GSOC were being spied on.

And the master investigators didnt have the cop on to take the number of the van supposedly being used.

Edgware · 24-02-2019 3:12pm

paw patrol wrote: »

I think you've lost the run of yourself

That didnt happen today or yesterday

MrFresh · 24-02-2019 3:34pm

paw patrol wrote: »

I think you've lost the run of yourself

I'm not the one that's escaped from the CT forum.

odyssey06 wrote: »

If that was the unprecedented aspect, why did the DPP need 12 months to drop the case?
Fox isn't going to come back to life between February 2018 and February 2019.

What was unprecedented was something in the notes left by Fox, which related to the new information that defence counsel was seeking in the week before his death, information that the defence counsel was pointing to Garda collusion to pervert the course of justice. Such Garda activity would be exceptional, and perhaps this time the defence counsel's gambit hit the mark.

On the face of it it does seem an unlikely reason, but then it must have been at the forefront of his mind or he would not have left final notes about it.

By the same token, why would it take 12 months to analyse a suicide note? I think it's more likely they were working to save the case in that time as opposed to trying to figure out what the note said.

hatrickpatrick · 24-02-2019 4:14pm

MrFresh wrote: »

I'm not the one that's escaped from the CT forum.

By the same token, why would it take 12 months to analyse a suicide note? I think it's more likely they were working to save the case in that time as opposed to trying to figure out what the note said.

On foot of the note, GSOC went trawling through electronic devices, some of which they had to go to great lengths to gain access to and bypass encryption etc. Do you really think this kind of intensive forensic examination would have been pursued if the note hadn’t pointed to something more serious than being overworked? One of the devices generated “a significant amount of material” - are we to assume that this material was just piles of routine Garda work which proved that he was overly stressed?

The reports and statements from those involved point to the material being directly relevant to both the suicide and the trial.

Without all the facts it does require an amount of extrapolation, but everything about this case points to something in either the suicide bite or the subsequently analyses material having a direct effect on the case, as opposed to being merely tangential. If it was the case that the prosecution couldn’t proceed merely because they needed Fox to personally lead certain evidence, why would they have to wait for GSOC’s investigation to be complete, and why would GSOC’s report have to be studied for several weeks by both legal teams before they could figure out how to proceed?

If it was as simple as the death itself being the fatal blow to the prosecution, there would have been no need for all these delays. GSOC’s findings about the circumstances surrounding it wouldn’t have been relevant to the trial.

tigger123 · 24-02-2019 5:13pm

Has it been confirmed anywhere that the Superintendents suicide was in anyway as a result of the Hutch investigation?

Regency Hotel shooting trial collapses following Detective Superintendent's suicide

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