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AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

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Comments

  • #62
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    It’s also common in Ireland to talk about how backward Ireland is compared to Western Europe on religion in school and hospitals etc etc etc etc etc. Well those countries who don’t have religious schools and hospitals actually have hijab bans, not just on the police.

    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Full-face_veils_ban_in_Europe.svg#mw-jump-to-license


  • #63
    jmreire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭jmreire


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Muslim women cant be alone with non male relatives, nor shake hands. Not exactly good for community policing.

    The non-hand shaking, only accompanied by a male member of the family Muslim Ladies will not even be applying for those jobs...But there are as many shades of Islam as there are Christians.( well, strictly speaking not quite as many numerically, but you get my drift.. not all Muslims are the same ) Go into any of the well known Dublin pubs on a weekend night, and you would be surprised just how many of the patrons , male and female, were in fact Muslim. So fifty shade's come's to mind...


  • #64
    Samuel Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭Samuel Vimes


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Didnt realise all Muslims were brown...
    *updates notes.

    Maybe some people just have an issue with any overt display of a fantasy by an official in a law reinforcement role, particularly where such an officer (might) see civil law as subordinate to a "higher" power.


    Jeez, the irony of wanting religon out of our schools and into the Gardai...
    there is a world of difference in wanting to end a specific religious ethos controlling and dominating state funded institutions and allowing freedom of religious expression for all, within limits, among those employed to deliver state services.


  • #65
    Yurt2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Catholicism bad
    other religions good

    Can't speak for anyone else, but any practitioner of religion seeking cultural hegemony I would object to - be they Catholic / Hindu / Protestant / whatever. Passive displays of religion, that are mandated by their faith (such as the turban), shouldn't in theory effect the quality of policing or the discharge of duties.

    There's no operational reason for banning beards also - the rule should go, and probably will go with this initiative. It's perfectly possible to be presentable with a beard. We have bearded Irish ambassadors around the world representing us in our diplomatic service, why shouldn't a Garda be allowed to wear a beard as long as he's presentable?


  • #66
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    If I am in bed at night and hear someone breaking in downstairs I dont care if the Gardai arrive wearing Crusty the Clown costumes as long as they arrive very quickly.
    Are these new changes just another cosmetic P.R. initiative or will it help to put more Guards on the streets.
    Raiders can go into rural towns like Kingscourt and Castleblayney with J.C.B.s or heavier equipment and rip A.T.M.s from the walls of the local bank without any Garda response.
    We have no evidence that the so called "new Irish" are unwilling to join the Gardai because of uniform issues but we have plenty evidence of people being absolutely fed up of poor Garda response and of the lack of uniforms on the street


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  • #67
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,999 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    So are beards allowed now as well

    I suppose we have to be inclusive when it comes to the marginalised Hipster community.


  • #68
    JonnyMarbles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭JonnyMarbles


    RayCun wrote: »
    You really don't know what you are talking about.

    I don't care if a doctor or nurse wears a crucifix.
    I care if the treatment I get in a hospital is determined by the beliefs of a particular religion.

    I don't care if a teacher wears a headscarf or a skullcap.
    I care if my kids are taught that a particular religion is true.

    I don't care if a garda wears a turban.
    I care if certain things are illegal because of the beliefs of a particular religion.

    I don't care what you believe.
    I care if your beliefs impinge on my freedoms.

    This is not ****ing complicated.

    Do you know what a uniform means? It means everyone dresses the same.

    Do you know guards literally can't have any facial hair?

    As for your bolded comments, can you trust these relgious people to adhere to the law and not their own religious laws considering they feel so strongly about their religions that they're not willing to join the guards if they can't wear their veils or turbans???


  • #69
    Samuel Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭Samuel Vimes


    Edgware wrote: »
    We have no evidence that the so called "new Irish" are unwilling to join the Gardai because of uniform issues

    Yes we do
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sikh-loses-challenge-to-refusal-by-garda-reserve-to-allow-turbans-on-duty-1.1412236

    A High Court judge has dismissed a challenge by a member of the Irish Sikh community to a refusal to allow those training for the Garda Reserve to wear a turban while on duty.

    Ravinder Singh Oberoi had completed the first three stages of training for the Garda Reserve when he was told he would have to wear a full Garda uniform and could not wear a turban.

    That decision meant he was unable to continue his training and become a member of the reserve, Mr Oberoi said.


  • #70
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    i dont care what a garda wears

    well actually i wish they would ditch their manky oversized hi-vis anoraks and smarten themselves up a bit to look like a professional force

    its just that at a time when religion is being chased out of public institutions (long overdue in some cases), that other religions are being invited in. its hard not to see this regressive (lauded as progressive) step for what it is.


  • #71
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    Yes we do
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sikh-loses-challenge-to-refusal-by-garda-reserve-to-allow-turbans-on-duty-1.1412236

    A High Court judge has dismissed a challenge by a member of the Irish Sikh community to a refusal to allow those training for the Garda Reserve to wear a turban while on duty.

    Ravinder Singh Oberoi had completed the first three stages of training for the Garda Reserve when he was told he would have to wear a full Garda uniform and could not wear a turban.

    That decision meant he was unable to continue his training and become a member of the reserve, Mr Oberoi said.

    Garda Reserve?


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  • #72
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,999 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Some rubbish spouted from usual sources in online commentary, lads who can't tell the difference between a hijab and a burqua, "taking our jobs".. likely from those who wouldn't be within a donkey's roar of qualifying as a security guard let alone passing a Garda entrance exam.


  • #73
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    LoonyLovegood wrote: »
    If it helps bring more recruits in, and makes people more comfortable dealing with the Guards, then what's the problem? It's not like a hijab or a turban is going to stop them from doing their jobs.

    Gardai never had a shortage of recruits


  • #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Just heard this on Morning Ireland. This is a staggeringly regressive and utterly myopic move and the relevant political minister should intervene to protect An Garda Síochána as a secular force. It's so incredibly short-sighted. There are problems with AGS, but maintaining a secular uniform is not one of them. Back in 2007 AGS and the relevant minister, Briain Lenihan Jr, had the sense to reject pressure to desecularise AGS.

    This notion that we must go back to the Middle Ages to accommodate people with ineffably backward beliefs is only going to make things much worse, and allow all the wrong people to make scapegoats of good members of minority communities. Keep AGS as a secular force for Irish society. If people can't respect our values, and the very valid historical reasons why we have become secular, they can find a society more suitable to their beliefs.

    Definition: Secular, adjective, not connected with religious or spiritual matters.


  • #75
    Yurt2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    JonnyMarbles wrote: »

    Do you know guards literally can't have any facial hair?

    They can wear mustache, but not a beard.

    The mustache was viewed as distinguished once upon a time, and not the sex-offender red-flag it is now.


  • #76
    Samuel Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭Samuel Vimes


    Edgware wrote: »
    Garda Reserve?

    Your point?


  • #77
    JonnyMarbles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭JonnyMarbles


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    Yes we do
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sikh-loses-challenge-to-refusal-by-garda-reserve-to-allow-turbans-on-duty-1.1412236

    A High Court judge has dismissed a challenge by a member of the Irish Sikh community to a refusal to allow those training for the Garda Reserve to wear a turban while on duty.

    Ravinder Singh Oberoi had completed the first three stages of training for the Garda Reserve when he was told he would have to wear a full Garda uniform and could not wear a turban.

    That decision meant he was unable to continue his training and become a member of the reserve, Mr Oberoi said.

    You mean he decided he didn't want to continue.


  • #78
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    JonnyMarbles wrote: »
    Do you know what a uniform means? It means everyone dresses the same.

    Did you know that female gardai have a choice between wearing trousers and skirts. OMFG, they aren't dressing the same!
    JonnyMarbles wrote: »
    Do you know guards literally can't have any facial hair?

    Yes, and I think that rule should be changed
    JonnyMarbles wrote: »
    As for your bolded comments, can you trust these relgious people to adhere to the law and not their own religious laws considering they feel so strongly about their religions that they're not willing to join the guards if they can't wear their veils or turbans???

    If a garda doesn't enforce the law for whatever reason that is a problem.
    There is no reason to believe that someone who would rather be able to wear a turban on duty is for that reason incapable of enforcing the laws of the state.

    Except racism. Racism makes people believe all kinds of stupid ****.


  • #79
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    it feels like a virtue signal by an institution perpetually rocked by scandal.

    and a lazy, cack-handed virtue signal at that.


  • #80
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Police and Military selection processes are designed to weed out unsuitable candidates as quickly as possibly. If you can't even fit in with the Garda uniform, then you failed at the first hurdle, it's **** off Mr Chips time for ye.

    **** this accommodating nonsense. We accommodated one bunch of religious clowns on this Island and look where it got us. You want to live according to some medieval belief system this ain't the place to do it.


  • #81
    JonnyMarbles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭JonnyMarbles


    RayCun wrote: »
    Did you know that female gardai have a choice between wearing trousers and skirts. OMFG, they aren't dressing the same!



    Yes, and I think that rule should be changed



    If a garda doesn't enforce the law for whatever reason that is a problem.
    There is no reason to believe that someone who would rather be able to wear a turban on duty is for that reason incapable of enforcing the laws of the state.

    Except racism. Racism makes people believe all kinds of stupid ****.

    I mean, they feel so strongly about their religion they'll happily refuse to join the guards so they can wear their garments...doesn't really bode well does it?


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  • #82
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    I think this is a regressive step but I can appreciate the bind that the Gardai are in.

    It's broadly accepted that a diverse force is necessary to ensure good relations with all communities (an aim that the Gardai take seriously through their community outreach IME) and therefore they feel a need to relax uniform requirements if that's what it takes to ensure sufficiently diverse recruitment.


  • #83
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    JonnyMarbles wrote: »
    I mean, they feel so strongly about their religion they'll happily refuse to join the guards so they can wear their garments...doesn't really bode well does it?

    Are they trying to make everyone else wear headscarves?

    No?

    Who is trying to determine what people wear in their day-to-day life?

    Oh, that'd be you.


  • #84
    Samuel Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭Samuel Vimes


    Bambi wrote: »
    . You want to live according to some medieval belief system this ain't the place to do it.
    Unless you're a Roman catholic eh!
    Sikhism and Islam are no more Medieval than Christianity-Its not like they are asking for their call to prayer to played twice daily by the National Broadcaster, like say, The Angelus.
    They are asking for limited freedom of religious expression-akin to a Garda wearing ashes on Ash Wednesday.


  • #85
    JonnyMarbles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭JonnyMarbles


    RayCun wrote: »
    Are they trying to make everyone else wear headscarves?

    No?

    Who is trying to determine what people wear in their day-to-day life?

    Oh, that'd be you.

    Working is not day to day life. Just like I have to wear a hi vis vest on a construction site.


  • #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just heard this on Morning Ireland. This is a staggeringly regressive and utterly myopic move and the relevant political minister should intervene to protect An Garda Síochána as a secular force. It's so incredibly short-sighted. There are problems with AGS, but maintaining a secular uniform is not one of them. Back in 2007 AGS and the relevant minister, Briain Lenihan Jr, had the sense to reject pressure to desecularise AGS.

    This notion that we must go back to the Middle Ages to accommodate people with ineffably backward beliefs is only going to make things much worse, and allow all the wrong people to make scapegoats of good members of minority communities. Keep AGS as a secular force for Irish society. If people can't respect our values, and the very valid historical reasons why we have become secular, they can find a society more suitable to their beliefs.

    Definition: Secular, adjective, not connected with religious or spiritual matters.

    surely a secular force recognises that people of any religion, or none, can join?

    Equality is about removing unnecessary barriers not treating everyone the same. You don't tell employees they can have a management role, but all management roles are on the tenth floor accessed solely by twenty flights of stairs, you make it so everyone can get to the top floor whether or not they can climb the stairs.

    Similarly, of there is an obstacle to joining AGS which forces someone to choose between their religion or their chosen career, if it is reasonable, then remove that obstacle. Can a Sikh join? no, they may chose to wear a turban and can't wear the regulation cap. Can a hat be created that suits the operational requirements of AGS and meets the religious requirements of a Sikh? yes it can. Bingo, remove the barrier to the Sikh joining the Gards.

    Seems perfectly sensible to me.


  • #87
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    JonnyMarbles wrote: »
    Working is not day to day life. Just like I have to wear a hi vis vest on a construction site.

    So really you're concerned that a turban is not as safe as a garda cap.
    It's for their own good!


  • #88
    JonnyMarbles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 30 ✭JonnyMarbles


    RayCun wrote: »
    So really you're concerned that a turban is not as safe as a garda cap.
    It's for their own good!

    If not allowing a turban at work is "forcing someone what to wear in daily life" then forcing someone to wear a hi vis at work is "forcing someone what to wear in daily life".


  • #89
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    I suppose it's not really about what anyone wears but about what goes with what they wear. Small example, when my eldest started school about ten years ago the child he clicked with above all the others was a little muslim girl. They were just the best of friends and even though over time they made other friends, still their friendship with each other was constant and genuine. Until one day in fourth class, this little girl arrived into school wearing a hijab and told my son they could no longer be friends. I know it's a small example but I'm just making the point that it's not like the clothes are just style, there is a whole religious ideology that goes with it and that rather than the clothes might be the problem in AGS.


  • #90
    RayCun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    JonnyMarbles wrote: »
    If not allowing a turban at work is "forcing someone what to wear in daily life" then forcing someone to wear a hi vis at work is "forcing someone what to wear in daily life".

    High-vis jackets are required for safety reasons on site. Not because some control freak has a thing for yellow.

    Why should people be required to wear a cap instead of a turban? What purpose does it serve?


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  • #91
    Yurt2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    JonnyMarbles wrote: »
    Working is not day to day life. Just like I have to wear a hi vis vest on a construction site.


    Hi-vis vests provide for your safety and the safety of others. If one wears (or doesn't wear) a hijab or turban, it doesn't hinder the individual's ability to police effectively, nor does it place the public at risk.


    For operational reasons, Sikhs (for instance) can't at present, serve in the special forces in the UK - though I understand a kevlar turban is under development. Probably the case for mounted units too. A hijab would not hinder an individual from joining any unit within the police force.


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