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Coronavirus Part IV - 19 cases in ROI, 7 in NI (as of 7 March) *Read warnings in OP*

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Comments

  • #9152
    US2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Would that be via Reddit, Twitter, a bloke down the pub, your granny's fifth cousin or a credible official source? Think we heard yesterday that UCG was rife with it.

    Well this is a fact. And I'd nearly believe WhatsApp over the HSE at this stage as there is 100% 3 cases I know of that haven't been released.


  • #9153
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I think this thread shows that slowly more people are understanding that it is not a minor issue though.

    There are still a few but you don’t see as many “the common flue kills many more people than Covid 19 each year” type of comments anymore.


    SARS WAS A HOAX!

    No, it was a very dangerous disease that was stopped in its tracks, and you are mocking the efforts which halted that potential pandemic.


  • #9154
    john_doe.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭john_doe.


    daheff wrote: »
    France is catching up fast 230+ new cases yesterday. Germany with 163. Give it a week and we'll be talking about them as much as Italy

    https://news.qq.com/zt2020/page/feiyan.htm?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf#/global

    Hmm Italy as an outlier just doesn't make sense.
    It's same virus , and I don't think they messed up more than anyone else would or we would here.

    This would make more sense and it's purely timing. And if that is true then other countries are not learning from them and just putting it down as an exception.


  • #9155
    Pseudonym121
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 309 ✭✭Pseudonym121


    Not a post about the disease but more a political philosophy point.

    This illness will really clearly demarcated which countries have governments capable of making and enforcing strong decisions. China will use this to bolster the reputation of its model of government (moderate personal freedom with very limited political freedom), Russia will use it to show how much better it did than Western liberal democracies (they’ll be utterly ruthless with cases and lockdowns, they’re good at that) and the UK, Germany, the Benelux and Scandinavian countries will all do pretty well because of political and social characteristics.

    People in poliscience and social studies courses will be writing PhDs on the impact of government style and social interaction/phlegmatically for decades to come.

    Today’s crisis becomes tomorrow’s dissertation. That’s a surreal thought when you’re living in the crisis.


  • #9156
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    That's a stupid comment. Italy has the highest number of expat Chinese of any European country, Northern Italy in particular, according to their Irish Ambassador on Radio 1.

    What proof do you have to back up your daft statement?
    About as much proof that that your own claim holds water. Data will tell us in due course.


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  • #9157
    Seamai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Seamai


    john_doe. wrote: »
    Ya It has to be spreading in Cork. Can't explain where the guy got it from , which means there is someone most likely out there spreading it.

    Then factor in this guy was in hospital with doctors , nurses who move patients between wards.

    I'd imagine there are number infected in hospital itself , just not known yet.

    Well the most obvious explanation is that he was in contact with someone who had been in Italy (or somewhere else where cases had developed before here) and was a carrier / asymptomatic, possibly a member of staff or someone who was visiting him. Either someone is lying or someone is not doing their job properly.


  • #9158
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    That's a stupid comment. Italy has the highest number of expat Chinese of any European country, Northern Italy in particular, according to their Irish Ambassador on Radio 1.

    What proof do you have to back up your daft statement that they 'screwed up'?

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112754433&postcount=7220


  • #9159
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    US2 wrote: »
    Well this is a fact. And I'd nearly believe WhatsApp over the HSE at this stage as there is 100% 3 cases I know of that haven't been released.
    Ah so it's a conspiracy theory via WhatsApp. Fair enough.


  • #9160
    irishgeo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    US2 wrote: »
    Well this is a fact. And I'd nearly believe WhatsApp over the HSE at this stage as there is 100% 3 cases I know of that haven't been released.

    Show us the proof


  • #9161
    Away With The Fairies
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Away With The Fairies


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The only difference between Italy and the rest of Europe is we are behind a couple of weeks.

    We could be behind a couple of weeks but the Italians stopped flights from China the day they had two positive Chinese tourists. We have let hundreds of people back into the country from Italy. Numbers are going to go up very quickly here.


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  • #9162
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    OMD wrote: »
    John Crown may be a good oncologist but he has no specific training in Public Health or Epidemiology beyond what he learnt as a student 40 years ago and his opinion should carry very little weight.

    Your post indicates that we should trust him but not the hundreds of public health doctors in this country who are specifically trained to respond to situations like this.

    Do you believe we should let the parade go ahead and hit A&E with loads of drunks? Lots of commentary this week of virologists and other experts saying it should be cancelled. But I can’t say I trust the experts saying it should go ahead, it makes no sense to my mind. Why put pressure on the system that’s already under pressure, why risk a rise in infection rates too.


  • #9163
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Cork Boy 53 wrote: »
    All parades should be cancelled not just in Dublin but nationwide as organisers of some of them in my own county have done of their own accord.

    If it becomes safe enough at a future date for the cancelled parades to be held, I'm seriously tempted to travel to Youghal, Middleton, Cobh or Stepaside and watch theirs and spend my money in a town that prioritised public safety.


  • #9164
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Pseudonym121 wrote: »
    Not a post about the disease but more a political philosophy point.

    This illness will really clearly demarcated which countries have governments capable of making and enforcing strong decisions. China will use this to bolster the reputation of its model of government (moderate personal freedom with very limited political freedom), Russia will use it to show how much better it did than Western liberal democracies (they’ll be utterly ruthless with cases and lockdowns, they’re good at that) and the UK, Germany, the Benelux and Scandinavian countries will all do pretty well because of political and social characteristics.

    People in poliscience and social studies courses will be writing PhDs on the impact of government style and social interaction/phlegmatically for decades to come.

    Today’s crisis becomes tomorrow’s dissertation. That’s a surreal thought when you’re living in the crisis.

    once china accepts that this is their Chernobyl and that their choice of political system caused it or made it worse

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #9165
    US2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    irishgeo wrote: »
    Show us the proof

    You want me to get a sick cert off the hospital for you or something?


  • #9166
    daheff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭daheff


    Away With The Fairies wrote: »
    We could be behind a couple of weeks but the Italians stopped flights from China the day they had two positive Chinese tourists. We have let hundreds of people back into the country from Italy. Numbers are going to go up very quickly here.

    We couldn't stop Irish residents returning....but we should have stopped people going there or non Irish residents visiting.


  • #9167
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Yes we can all agree Italy made a mess out of this. But still if you take French daily figures and match them to Italian figures a week earlier, the charts do seem to look awfully similar.

    (I am taking France as an example as it is broadly a similar size and population, but I would put other European countries in the same basket)
    And I agree we should be looking at other countries. There is no evidence so far that they'll end up with an Italian scenario.


  • #9168
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    daheff wrote: »
    We couldn't stop Irish residents returning....but we should have stopped people going there or non Irish residents visiting.

    We could have tested those who came back!

    Take mouth swabs of all passengers, take their details, follow up in a week with a further round of tests. Really easy to manage, not very expensive. You literally know what gate of the airport they are going to be entering. And until you get the results back, have them in isolation.


  • #9169
    US2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    Mr.S wrote: »
    I'd love to know how you think a WhatsApp message from someone can mean it's 100% confirmed.

    I didn't get this from WhatsApp, I simply said I'd nearly believe WhatsApp over the hse as they havnt released some of the positive tests from Friday.


  • #9170
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Away With The Fairies wrote: »
    We could be behind a couple of weeks but the Italians stopped flights from China the day they had two positive Chinese tourists. We have let hundreds of people back into the country from Italy. Numbers are going to go up very quickly here.
    Well as they largely seem to be Irish we have to.


  • #9171
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,628 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    is_that_so wrote: »
    About as much proof that that your own claim holds water. Data will tell us in due course.
    Why, which ambassador, or source even, are you referencing? The AskMyArse search engine?


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  • #9172
    US2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    is_that_so wrote: »
    And I agree we should be looking at other countries. There is no evidence so far that they'll end up with an Italian scenario.

    Yes there is evidence, showing the exact same trajectory as italy 10-14 days ago


  • #9173
    OMD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    pc7 wrote: »
    Do you believe we should let the parade go ahead and hit A&E with loads of drunks? Lots of commentary this week of virologists and other experts saying it should be cancelled. But I can’t say I trust the experts saying it should go ahead, it makes no sense to my mind. Why put pressure on the system that’s already under pressure, why risk a rise in infection rates too.

    I think we should allow the people best trained in this field to make decisions based on best international evidence and ignore media hungry doctors with no actual scientific basis for their opinions.

    If John Crown and all other oncologists came out and detailed the best way to treat cancer should we trust them or should we ignore them and instead trust a media friendly GP with no actual cancer experience or indeed trust people commenting on social media over oncologists?


  • #9174
    otnomart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,065 ✭✭✭otnomart


    France had first 'local' case (not linked to China nor Italy) showing symptoms from 13 February and diagnosed only on the 25 February.
    Not testing as much as other Countries
    Nearly 1000 total cases yesterday.
    Official statements that epidemy is inevitable.

    Still no major measures, except: schools closed for two weeks in two epicentres only and nationwide ban of indoor events with over 5000 people.
    Local elections still coming up.

    Defence meeting todat at 18.00 so I don't expect any announcement till then.


    1298102-datacoronajpg.jpg?modified_at=1583414980&width=960


  • #9175
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Why, which ambassador, or source even, are you referencing? The AskMyArse search engine?

    I never mentioned any ambassador.:confused:


  • #9176
    CinemaGuy45
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭CinemaGuy45


    is_that_so wrote: »
    And I agree we should be looking at other countries. There is no evidence so far that they'll end up with an Italian scenario.

    This ship has taken on a bit of water fair enough but there is no evidence it's going to take on anymore or even sink.

    intro-1556313441.jpg


  • #9177
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,893 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Iran has stopped all flights to Europe


  • #9178
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    daheff wrote: »
    We couldn't stop Irish residents returning....but we should have stopped people going there or non Irish residents visiting.


    We could have controlled their return but nah, sure it's grand.


  • #9179
    Darc19
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    pc7 wrote: »
    Do you believe we should let the parade go ahead and hit A&E with loads of drunks? Lots of commentary this week of virologists and other experts saying it should be cancelled. But I can’t say I trust the experts saying it should go ahead, it makes no sense to my mind. Why put pressure on the system that’s already under pressure, why risk a rise in infection rates too.
    People don't get drunk watching a parade.

    Those who want to get drunk will do so whether or not there is a parade.

    With so few cases at present, it's premature to cancel anything.

    Obviously things can change. But at this moment there's simply too much hysteria


  • #9180
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    US2 wrote: »
    Yes there is evidence, showing the exact same trajectory as italy 10-14 days ago
    Past performance is no evidence of the future. Only actual data will tell us.


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  • #9181
    ChurchtownMan
    Site Banned Posts: 38 ✭ChurchtownMan


    harr wrote: »
    I was in kildare village shopping outlet yesterday and plenty of Chinese and Italians plus plenty of other nationalities knocking about. When I was leaving another bus load of Chinese tourists arrived. Business as usual It seems

    How do you know they were Chinese. Interviews ? Or do you speak Mandarin ?


  • #9182
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    An Ri rua wrote: »
    Why, which ambassador, or source even, are you referencing? The AskMyArse search engine?
    :D:D:D

    *Business Idea*


  • #9183
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    harr wrote: »
    I was in kildare village shopping outlet yesterday and plenty of Chinese and Italians plus plenty of other nationalities knocking about. When I was leaving another bus load of Chinese tourists arrived. Business as usual It seems

    It's up to governments to put controls in place to curb this. I know it sounds discriminatory but it is saddening to hear stories of Italians who are great people and friends being refused from Taxis. I have heard more than one story. Taxi drivers are caught between a rock and a hard place having to make such calls.

    Government formation should be scrapped for 6 months at a minimum and our leadership should be working on a cross party basis.

    It is a pity that some of the major parties have such an ego that they refuse to work with the others. Ego should be put to the side for once.

    We have a lame duck situation. Having a re election is not an option now.


  • #9184
    fits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,018 ✭✭✭✭fits


    harr wrote: »
    I was in kildare village shopping outlet yesterday and plenty of Chinese and Italians plus plenty of other nationalities knocking about. When I was leaving another bus load of Chinese tourists arrived. Business as usual It seems

    Kildare village was dead on Friday. Definitely not business as usual.

    We are going ahead with our plan for St Patrick’s Day. Heading out west. I don’t think as a family we will change much of our plans unless told to. And we will of course be mindful of vulnerable folks.


  • #9185
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    CinemaGuy45 wrote: »
    This ship has taken on a bit of water fair enough but there is no evidence it's going to take on anymore or even sink.

    I've heard some hysterical individuals saying that they believe the ship will sink, but that's just scaremongering. Leave those lifeboats where they are!

    Next you'll have fools saying we shouldn't have hit the iceberg in the first place.

    Besides which, only old people have to fear the cold water. It has been well established that young healthy individuals can last a solid hour in these temperatures.


  • #9186
    Funsterdelux
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Funsterdelux


    Darc19 wrote: »
    People don't get drunk watching a parade.

    Those who want to get drunk will do so whether or not there is a parade.

    With so few cases at present, it's premature to cancel anything.

    Obviously things can change. But at this moment there's simply too much hysteria

    So lets be reactive instead of proactive!


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  • #9187
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,893 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The Czech Republic has broken ranks.

    They are calling on Italy to ban all foreign travel by Italian citizens.

    First country in Europe to openly call for that


  • #9188
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,781 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Darc19 wrote: »
    With so few cases at present, it's premature to cancel anything.

    That's the reason to cancel, to try and keep it that way.

    The risk is not from the confirmed cases.

    The risk is from the unconfirmed cases that are out there.


  • #9189
    Drumpot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    is_that_so wrote: »
    And I agree we should be looking at other countries. There is no evidence so far that they'll end up with an Italian scenario.

    Equally there is no evidence that proves we won’t end up like Italy. So what do we do? Wait for it to happen or take the measures they are taking a week or two in advance to slow down the spread?

    We are most likely only testing only some of the people who have the virus. How do I know this? Because our authority’s expect more cases so even they aren’t delusional enough to think they have thus under control.

    We are only testing people who have the most obvious symptoms and still haven’t even suggested people who were in Italy (who may not have symptoms and may never have symptoms but could spread it) quarantine themselves. We are preparing ourselves for the worst and doing little to nothing to try to mitigate the spread.

    In fact asides from getting ready for this to be awful, what exactly are we doing to slow down the disease now other then tell people to wash their hands?


  • #9190
    ChurchtownMan
    Site Banned Posts: 38 ✭ChurchtownMan


    john_doe. wrote: »
    Hmm Italy as an outlier just doesn't make sense.
    It's same virus , and I don't think they messed up more than anyone else would or we would here.

    This would make more sense and it's purely timing. And if that is true then other countries are not learning from them and just putting it down as an exception.

    No. Italy is not an outlier. It made no particular mistakes. It is balancing economics with health on a day by day basis. It is doint what every other European country has chosen to do, only it was first into the firing line. Other countries have little to learn - they simply have the benfit of more time.


  • #9191
    un5byh7sqpd2x0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭un5byh7sqpd2x0


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Yes we can all agree Italy made a mess out of this. But still if you take French daily figures and match them to Italian figures a week earlier, the charts do seem to look awfully similar.

    (I am taking France as an exemple as it is broadly a similar size and population, but I would put other European countries in the same basket)

    How exactly did Italy “screw up “ ? Seeing as you then go on to say France figures are exactly the same... Did France “screw up” too so?


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  • #9192
    irishgeo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    US2 wrote: »
    You want me to get a sick cert off the hospital for you or something?

    How do you know 100%?

    Or did you see it whatsapp or Facebook, like the rest of the rubbish. 6 different places for the case in the west a few days ago and none of them were right.


  • #9193
    circadian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,321 ✭✭✭circadian


    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Economically we'll be hit. The government had the choice between controlling it by restricting movement and putting other measures in place or allowing the spread of illness control the economic hit. It seems that our government has gone for the second option for short term gain.


  • #9194
    CinemaGuy45
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭CinemaGuy45


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I've heard some hysterical individuals saying that they believe the ship will sink, but that's just scaremongering. Leave those lifeboats where they are!

    Next you'll have fools saying we shouldn't have hit the iceberg in the first place.

    Besides which, only old people have to fear the cold water. It has been well established that young healthy individuals can last a solid hour in these temperatures.

    And besides the rescue ship will be along any minute now.


  • #9195
    Thewife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 402 ✭✭Thewife


    Apologies if this has already been asked and answered . How will this lockdown in Italy work ? No flights in or out ? What about the Italians then might be elsewhere on holidays , will they be allowed back in ? And has the lockdown already been put in place ?
    Wuhan alert the people that it was going to be put on lockdown at a certain day and time and supposedly up to 5 million people got out quickly before the lockdown started so I’m wondering if this could be the same situation in Italy .


  • #9196
    ChurchtownMan
    Site Banned Posts: 38 ✭ChurchtownMan


    pc7 wrote: »
    Yeah DS it’s a starting point for sure, Italy shows how it can go wrong. We’ve had Wuhan, now Italy, If that doesn’t show them what happens when it goes wrong you may through your hat at it.

    Italy has done nothing wrong. Just because the outcome is bad on one level, does not mean they have made a mistake. They have done nothing that any other European country would have done. And in fact, will be doing over the coming months. Lombardy alone expects 18000 infections in 2 weeks.


  • #9197
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    is_that_so wrote: »
    And I agree we should be looking at other countries. There is no evidence so far that they'll end up with an Italian scenario.

    I guess technically you never get absolute evidence of what the future will be.

    But we can look at strong clues: the virus has set foot in ireland and is starting to spread locally. We are probably where Italy was a few was a few weeks ago (although we would have a better picture if we were tested more suspected cases).

    Now we cant predict if we will end up like Italy as it depends on how we react (and to a smaller extend it depends on luck and local circumstances like the fact that we are a smaller country on an island). But currently I am not sure we are doing things very differently from what Italy was doing a few weeks ago ...


  • #9198
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Darc19 wrote: »
    With so few cases at present, it's premature to cancel anything.
    Because of people thinking like this the virus managed to spread all the way from China to my hometown :(


  • #9199
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    circadian wrote: »
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Economically we'll be hit. The government had the choice between controlling it by restricting movement and putting other measures in place or allowing the spread of illness control the economic hit. It seems that our government has gone for the second option for short term gain.

    This. It is saddening to see medical professionals screaming at the Government to cancel and their calls falling on deaf ears.


  • #9200
    Pseudonym121
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 309 ✭✭Pseudonym121


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Great article, A while back I posted re a village in the UK way back in plague times. Eyam , in Derbyshire. When the Plague hit in the 1660s, they opted to cut themselves off totally to avoid spreading it further. Heroic.

    Spearheaded by the local clergy who. like most of the village, died of the plague when they could have left and risked others.

    See BBC programme " Eyam; Village of the Damned"


    People wonder what healthcare workers will do. I amnt going to be addressing COVID19 rates etc directly anymore. The public narrative is catching up to what I said and was attacked for So there’s no need to keep ringing the alarm. With that said this was an interesting post and here’s some interesting reading of what happened within living memory ( thankfully this isn’t as lethal as SARS or MERS etc so there won’t have to be quite as drastic self-sacrifice).

    Sars: The people who risked their lives to stop the virus http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23710697

    And here’s a few sobering insights regarding how doctors and nurses die at higher rates than the public with this sort of thing From the Irish Times
    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/noble-tradition-of-healthcare-workers-placing-themselves-in-danger-lives-on-1.4165486

    When SARS and swine flu hit I was still an NCHD and my colleagues and I had to decide what to do on a personal level knowing these sorts of outcomes. I’m glad to say everyone I worked with kept coming in and several of us agreed amongst ourselves to move into the hospitals and live there ( and if necessary did there) until it passed. Thankfully they never got as bad as this is going to get in Ireland but I remember those discussions very vividly.

    If necessary doctors and nurses worldwide will make the big play if it is necessary for society. Not all of them but enough.


  • #9201
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    CinemaGuy45 wrote: »
    This ship has taken on a bit of water fair enough but there is no evidence it's going to take on anymore or even sink.

    intro-1556313441.jpg
    That's a poor example as that ship is clearly sinking! I'm not sold as some seem to be on the shut down the country approach. As Boris said, quoting his own medical people, there are lots of tools available and we should not be using them all at once. That time may come but it's not now.


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