Mens Rights Thread

volchitsa · 24-05-2020 6:53pm

2u2me wrote: »

I can only speak for myself but I think the very idea of giving kids hormone blocking drugs is absolutey reprehensible, it amounts to abuse and perhaps torture. I haven't seen any MRAs express the opinion that they are in favour of puberty blocking drugs for kids.

It's strange that you would link "Puberty blocking hormone treatment for children" with "Trans rights". Do you think that should be included in the term 'trans-rights' because I don't.

I didn't say they supported it, I asked whether they as a group have a position on the issue, and if as it appears, they don't, why that should be, ie why they don't feel it's a question that they even need to take a stance on in the first place?

I'm not sure what you're saying in that second paragraph, or rather I don't see how it relates to my point. I wasn't saying that it should be included in that, just that it is, and asking a slightly different question, going on from that.

iptba · 24-05-2020 7:19pm

volchitsa wrote: »

I didn't say they supported it, I asked whether they as a group have a position on the issue

I am not an expert on all the different viewpoints that can be seen as feminist but there seem to plenty of issues where there are disagreements between different feminists on issues. It seems to be a double standard to expect men’s rights activists to “as a group have a position” on issues when this is not expected of feminists/feminism.

2u2me · 24-05-2020 7:30pm

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're saying in that second paragraph, or rather I don't see how it relates to my point. I wasn't saying that it should be included in that, just that it is, and asking a slightly different question, going on from that.

It may be 'seen more as a women's issue' because feminists have a louder voice when it comes to these issues. They receive a lot more funding. There are plenty of MRAs advocating against hormone blocking drugs.

In fact many MRAs complain because they are not allowed to speak truth to power on social media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39lwukNQqkg

24-05-2020 10:15pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Sounds like you should be arguing to ban divorce then TBF. And it's not really relevant, unless you mean that father get to pick and choose which parts of children's lives they are involved in.

My question is why is the issue of children being given puberty blockers apparently seen as an important issue for women's groups, but not for fathers' groups? Surely it must be of equal importance to both?

I have no idea how you linked my post to divorce... But then, I'm pretty confused about your points and your supporting paragraphs. Just seems odd to me.

volchitsa · 24-05-2020 11:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no idea how you linked my post to divorce... But then, I'm pretty confused about your points and your supporting paragraphs. Just seems odd to me.

And I find your opinion confusing too so there you go. You said children from single mothers had poorer outcomes - so shouldn't you be trying to stop that happening? Because from the child's point of view, whether single or divorced fathers have legal access to their children is not at all the same thing as growing up in a stable family, is it?

So I wonder why that one issue (access to children) seems to be the only thing that really matters to fathers' groups? Shouldn't all aspects of children's lives and well being be important to them? Which is also why I asked about the trans issues and why it seems to be seen as a women's issue. It shouldn't be, because it affects children's lives too.

volchitsa · 24-05-2020 11:52pm

iptba wrote: »

I am not an expert on all the different viewpoints that can be seen as feminist but there seem to plenty of issues where there are disagreements between different feminists on issues. It seems to be a double standard to expect men’s rights activists to “as a group have a position” on issues when this is not expected of feminists/feminism.

Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear there - I didn't mean that men's groups should have a single voice on the matter, still less that all men should. That's not what I mean, and not what I originally said either.

I'm asking why the whole issue is almost non existent to men's groups at all - including on this forum where it's been described as a women's issue even though there are significant parts of it that are related to child welfare. No threads about it in here, and on the thread on trans (about a kid in drag) that's quite active at the minute, the male posters there mostly seem to be discussing it as a woman's issue.

volchitsa · 24-05-2020 11:54pm

2u2me wrote: »

It may be 'seen more as a women's issue' because feminists have a louder voice when it comes to these issues. They receive a lot more funding. There are plenty of MRAs advocating against hormone blocking drugs.

In fact many MRAs complain because they are not allowed to speak truth to power on social media.

Not allowed by whom? Anyone can speak on social media, surely?

Also, which people or groups have been advocating against hormone blocking drugs?

24-05-2020 11:55pm

volchitsa wrote: »

And I find your opinion confusing too so there you go. You said children from single mothers had poorer outcomes - so shouldn't you be trying to stop that happening? Because from the child's point of view, whether single or divorced fathers have legal access to their children is not at all the same thing as growing up in a stable family, is it?

So I wonder why that one issue (access to children) seems to be the only thing that really matters to fathers' groups? Shouldn't all aspects of children's lives and well being be important to them? Which is also why I asked about the trans issues and why it seems to be seen as a women's issue. It shouldn't be, because it affects children's lives too.

Ahh... I understand now. This isn't a contribution to the Men's Rights thread. It's an attempt to derail it by taking us into controversial topics. Topics that have had threads with dozens of pages, and plenty of high emotional content. I know, because I contributed to many of them, and I saw each thread shut down/locked.

If you want to talk about men's rights and the right of the father regarding his children, fine. I get that... but it doesn't seem that you are.

volchitsa · 25-05-2020 12:05am

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh... I understand now. This isn't a contribution to the Men's Rights thread. It's an attempt to derail it by taking us into controversial topics. Topics that have had threads with dozens of pages, and plenty of high emotional content. I know, because I contributed to many of them, and I saw each thread shut down/locked.

If you want to talk about men's rights and the right of the father regarding his children, fine. I get that... but it doesn't seem that you are.

No, I absolutely agree that children need contact with their fathers.

And I'm certainly not trying to derail the thread, but then it isn't called "contact" or anything like that. I had a question to ask, something that occurred to me based on how the trans kid thread seemed to be all about how women should react to the issue and I found that very strange.

So I thought it made sense to ask posters who were already concerned with men's issues why that was. This looked like a general thread about men's rights, so I assumed it was, you know, a general thread about men and families and all the issues that that may involve. Was that wrong? Perhaps you'd prefer it on a separate thread? I didn't know if there was enough to discuss to make it worth setting up a thread, and TBH I'm not a big thread starter myself anyway.

2u2me · 25-05-2020 12:18am

volchitsa wrote: »

Not allowed by whom? Anyone can speak on social media, surely?

Also, which people or groups have been advocating against hormone blocking drugs?

Look at the great lengths Jeffrey Younger went to stop his son from being 'transitioned'.

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm asking why the whole issue is almost non existent to men's groups at all - including on this forum where it's been described as a women's issue even though there are significant parts of it that are related to child welfare. No threads about it in here, and on the thread on trans (about a kid in drag) that's quite active at the minute, the male posters there mostly seem to be discussing it as a woman's issue.

You're the only one calling it a woman's issue. Here's an entire forum devoted to it on reddit; go knock yourself out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/aiis0h/how_is_it_not_child_abuse_to_force_a_child_to_be/

iptba · 25-05-2020 12:33am

It seems that almost everything, or at least a huge variety of topics could be argued to affect either men and/or their children*.

I don't think a men's rights thread should feel the need to discuss all aspects of education, including special needs; all aspects of health provision; the environment; justice/law and order; transport; the economy; social affairs; all aspects of the working environment; etc.

*And of course nearly every man will have other relatives that they care about with myriads of issues affecting them.

volchitsa · 25-05-2020 12:35am

2u2me wrote: »

Look at the great lengths Jeffrey Younger went to stop his son from being 'transitioned'.

You're the only one calling it a woman's issue. Here's an entire forum devoted to it on reddit; go knock yourself out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/aiis0h/how_is_it_not_child_abuse_to_force_a_child_to_be/

Not sure why the hostility. I'm not on Reddit, so thanks for that, it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. I'll have a look tomorrow.

(As for calling it a woman's issue, I didn't. Because I don't think it should be. I was reflecting the way it was being treated on the thread I mentioned, and indeed on this one. I'll have a look at the reddit thread as I say.

volchitsa · 25-05-2020 12:42am

iptba wrote: »

It seems that almost everything, or at least a huge variety of topics could be argued to affect either men and/or their children*.

I don't think a men's rights thread should feel the need to discuss all aspects of education, including special needs; all aspects of health provision; the environment; justice/law and order; transport; the economy; social affairs; all aspects of the working environment; etc.

*And of course nearly every man will have other relatives that they care about with myriads of issues affecting them.

Well that's not quite what I was saying though. It wouldn't be fair IMO to complain that there should be the same percentage of posts or threads in "The Gentlemen's Club" forum just because - and I didn't say that.

It was actually the whole tone of discussion in the relevant thread that struck me, and not for the first time, which is why I decided to go to the horse's mouth and ask what posters in here thought of it.

I wouldn't actually mind starting a thread on it, if it seems like possibly derailing this one - I just wasn't too sure it would be preferable for a "non gentleman" to come in and start a discussion here rather than join in an existing thread.

2u2me · 25-05-2020 12:56am

volchitsa wrote: »

Not sure why the hostility. I'm not on Reddit, so thanks for that, it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. I'll have a look tomorrow.

It's just that you kept asking why men don't care; while I was trying to explain perhaps it's just that you haven't seen it. Mens groups don't get as much as a voice as feminists groups; surely you must agree. Sorry for the hostility.

Another reason that might explain less activity here than on a feminist forum is that more people in the men's movement seem in agreement, its harder to have a discussion if everyone thinks the same, do you see what I mean.

25-05-2020 1:19am

volchitsa wrote: »

No, I absolutely agree that children need contact with their fathers.

Except that I didn't say anything of the sort. Since it's obvious.

And I'm certainly not trying to derail the thread, but then it isn't called "contact" or anything like that. I had a question to ask, something that occurred to me based on how the trans kid thread seemed to be all about how women should react to the issue and I found that very strange.

So I thought it made sense to ask posters who were already concerned with men's issues why that was. This looked like a general thread about men's rights, so I assumed it was, you know, a general thread about men and families and all the issues that that may involve. Was that wrong? Perhaps you'd prefer it on a separate thread? I didn't know if there was enough to discuss to make it worth setting up a thread, and TBH I'm not a big thread starter myself anyway.

CA tends to be the go-to forum for trans debates... because the mods know that such debates generally go pear shaped quickly . I'd suggest doing a few searches and you'll find a variety of threads which will answer your questions.

For me, I've seen so many threads about men's issues shutdown so I'm a little protective of this thread. So few threads remain active for long... This is the exception. I'd like to see it continue.

25-05-2020 1:26am

volchitsa wrote: »

Not sure why the hostility..

My two cents... We've had posters come here before seeking to shut down threads. Those male feminists or feminists themselves who can't tolerate men having a relatively peaceful thread where most of us are in agreement. So, I (and I assume a few others) are a little suspicious when certain topics are linked to men's rights, since those topics lean heavily towards emotional outbursts and complaints.

I don't think you really got any hostility. You just didn't receive much in the way of responses... although IMHO, I'd say it's because you posed your questions with so little of your own contribution. I tend to be wary of posters asking leading questions when they haven't committed their own POV to the thread. There's a few posters who just ask questions, again and again, interjecting a single line in response... and it gets tedious dealing with that style of posting. Not accusing you of being that way... but I am very wary about certain topics being raised outside of CA.

iptba · 25-05-2020 2:43am

Bosses give underperforming female workers kinder but less truthful feedback than men, study reveals
Gender divide revealed in study by psychologists at Cornell University, New York
Found women were more likely to receive 'white lies' in feedback than men
This may be due to a desire to preserve relationships and avoid harming feelings
By LUKE ANDREWS FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 16:08, 24 May 2020 | UPDATED: 16:09, 24 May 2020

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8352451/Bosses-underperforming-female-workers-kinder-truthful-feedback-men-study-reveals.html

This is the sort of gender research that I think there needs to be more of: control for everything except gender and see what effect it has.

Interesting that it is only explicitly mentioned that women could lose out from the effects noted in the research.

The gender divide was revealed by psychologists at Cornell University, New York, who asked almost 66 volunteers, including 39 women, to mark essays before revealing the name of the author.

Participants were then asked to re-mark the work, by either 'Sarah' or 'Andrew', based on quality, writing criteria and willingness to recommend as exemplary.

The results, published in the journal Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, found 'Sarah' had her grades inflated by nearly a full letter and received more positive feedback than her colleague.

No mention of how this could lead to bias in education, for example.

One eyed Jack · 25-05-2020 5:26am

volchitsa wrote: »

Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear there - I didn't mean that men's groups should have a single voice on the matter, still less that all men should. That's not what I mean, and not what I originally said either.

I'm asking why the whole issue is almost non existent to men's groups at all - including on this forum where it's been described as a women's issue even though there are significant parts of it that are related to child welfare. No threads about it in here, and on the thread on trans (about a kid in drag) that's quite active at the minute, the male posters there mostly seem to be discussing it as a woman's issue.

There just isn’t as much heard about it because men aren’t coming under threat as it were from trans rights activists who are for the most part people who were born male. They’re not a threat to men’s rights advocates as such, which in my opinion exist solely as an antonym of feminism.

That’s why men’s rights activists are pretty much silent on the issue of trans rights, because trans activists too appear to want to undermine feminism - ‘enemy of mine enemy’ sort of thing going on. That’s why you’ll see some men’s rights activists rubbing feminists faces in it so to speak, because trans activists use the same language of social justice that feminists use in arguing for equality.

It’s entirely disingenuous on the part of trans rights activists, just like it’s entirely disingenuous on the part of men’s rights activists who are quite happy to stand by and watch feminists squirm uncomfortably - they don’t really see it as their problem, and that’s why they aren’t all that interested in being involved.

Pawwed Rig · 25-05-2020 5:55am

The perceived threat of hormone blockers in little children is virtually (if not actually) zero in this country which would explain why noone has discussed it as an issue.

2u2me · 26-05-2020 1:27am

Another article from CNN with the same theme as before.

Coronavirus is killing more men. But the lockdown is disastrous for women and their rights

The novel coronavirus seems to be more deadly for men. But in many other ways, women are bearing the brunt of this pandemic.

From a spike in domestic violence and restricted access to family-planning services to disproportionate economic impact, the lockdown measures put in place to stop the outbreak are hurting women and their basic rights a lot more than men.

A CNN analysis earlier this year found that in the countries for which data was available, men were 50% more likely than women to die after being diagnosed with Covid-19. But experts say focusing purely on health data is dangerous.

"We think about this crisis in very narrow terms, only focusing on the health impacts, but we're missing the bigger picture," said Julia Smith, a researcher at the Simon Fraser University in Canada. Smith is working on a multi-year project looking at the wider impact of the pandemic.

"Men are having worse health outcomes if they become infected, but when we think about the secondary impacts, here we see that women are being disproportionately affected," she added.

"And unfortunately, women's rights are almost always an afterthought in any crisis situation," she said.

Women's rights are still forefront of thought in any crisis situation. Remember that plane that landed in the Hudson, women out first.

Where was all this talk of 'secondary impacts' when they were complaining about wage equality. Hypocrites.
I added the emphasis.

[fixed url]

CageWager · 26-05-2020 3:16am

iptba wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8352451/Bosses-underperforming-female-workers-kinder-truthful-feedback-men-study-reveals.html

This is the sort of gender research that I think there needs to be more of: control for everything except gender and see what effect it has.

Interesting that it is only explicitly mentioned that women could lose out from the effects noted in the research.

No mention of how this could lead to bias in education, for example.

The education system has been heavily tilted towards girls for a long time now. Year after year girls outperform boys in almost every subject in the state exams but all you’ll hear on the six one news is how boys did better in maths and how this is a function of an oppressive patriarchal tyranny and all men conspire to keep females from fulfilling their destiny as a software developer or #girlbossTM

Silentcorner · 26-05-2020 8:24am

2u2me wrote: »

Another article from CNN with the same theme as before.

Coronavirus is killing more men. But the lockdown is disastrous for women and their rights

Women's rights are still forefront of thought in any crisis situation. Remember that plane that landed in the Hudson, women out first.

Where was all this talk of 'secondary impacts' when they were complaining about wage equality. Hypocrites.
I added the emphasis.

It's amazing....we have been hearing about this epidemic of Domestic Violence since last Christmas at least long before the pandemic....in that time women have murdered men or children on 4 (7 people murdered in total) occasions in this country!

There is clearly an international effort to keep pumping out misleading information across the developed world.

Epidemic of Domestic Violence (which they never present evidence of )
The crisis is affecting women worse than men
Countries with female leaders are faring much better.

Women are an afterthought....they must think women are completely stupid altogether!!!

26-05-2020 10:05am

Silentcorner wrote: »

It's amazing....we have been hearing about this epidemic of Domestic Violence since last Christmas at least long before the pandemic....in that time women have murdered men or children on 4 (7 people murdered in total) occasions in this country!

There is clearly an international effort to keep pumping out misleading information across the developed world.

Epidemic of Domestic Violence (which they never present evidence of )
The crisis is affecting women worse than men
Countries with female leaders are faring much better.

Women are an afterthought....they must think women are completely stupid altogether!!!

Except that women benefit by extension by all of this... so they're not going to care. Nor will they complain about such a focus, because for many of them, it confirms elements of what they believe. They might not be accepting of everything, but we've all become rather adept at tuning out the mass media that hits us everyday, instead focusing on whats relevant to us. Throw enough **** against a wall, some of it is going to stick.

It's something I've noticed over the last decade. Many people will comment about how untrustworthy the media is, how much fake news is out there, or how the media fails to represent the reality for normal people... but they'll still use media reports to support their own opinions. They'll cherry-pick media reports, believing those that validate their stance, and dismiss the remainder. I'm not aiming this at women, but at most people of both genders.

I do believe there is a campaign being fought to marginalise men in society. We are being set up to take the fall for everything remotely negative that affects women... either we're the direct enemy, or women are victimized by association. By promoting and enforcing further rights/benefits/protections for women, men will be forced into a lesser status within society.

I don't believe in any kind of shadowy cabal, but I do feel that various groups can coordinate such efforts, or simply benefit from others actions without being directly associated. How many rocks independently falling down a mountain, before an avalanche occurs... ? We know there's no organised thought behind the avalanche, but the results speak for themselves.

Think of all the media, comments, etc over the last decade, and it's easy enough to see the avalanche analogy having some merit.

2u2me · 26-05-2020 1:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't believe in any kind of shadowy cabal, but I do feel that various groups can coordinate such efforts, or simply benefit from others actions without being directly associated. How many rocks independently falling down a mountain, before an avalanche occurs... ? We know there's no organised thought behind the avalanche, but the results speak for themselves.

Think of all the media, comments, etc over the last decade, and it's easy enough to see the avalanche analogy having some merit.

I used to hear the word 'projection' all the time from feminists. Until I realized that's exactly what they were doing to me.

Now I hear the word 'dog-whistle' from them, eveytime I read one of those articles; I can now see exactly what they're trying to say. I believe that's how they rally their troops.

CageWager · 26-05-2020 2:40pm

2u2me wrote: »

I used to hear the word 'projection' all the time from feminists. Until I realized that's exactly what they were doing to me.

Now I hear the word 'dog-whistle' from them, eveytime I read one of those articles; I can now see exactly what they're trying to say. I believe that's how they rally their troops.

Feminists are masters at shutting down debate. No argument can be logical enough in the face of absolute refusal to even entertain a counter argument. The proliferation of shaming tactics to achieve this is particularly distasteful. The idea that because I disagree with something that I automatically “hate women”. Its just so sick.

Silentcorner · 26-05-2020 3:07pm

CageWager wrote: »

Feminists are masters at shutting down debate. No argument can be logical enough in the face of absolute refusal to even entertain a counter argument. The proliferation of shaming tactics to achieve this is particularly distasteful. The idea that because I disagree with something that I automatically “hate women”. Its just so sick.

Lets call it what it is....f##king infantile!!!

2u2me · 26-05-2020 3:17pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

Lets call it what it is....f##king infantile!!!

Or perhaps 'post-modern'

26-05-2020 3:38pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

Lets call it what it is....f##king infantile!!!

or effective?

It works. It's losing effectiveness these days, but it's worked well for over a decade, and I can see many instances where it will continue to work into the near future.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Feminism has changed society dramatically over the last three decades. (Yes, I'm separating the frst wave) There are many areas in society now where a woman can talk over a male, but not vice versa. At least not without being alienated.

iptba · 26-05-2020 5:04pm

Viral video shows white woman calling cops on black man because he asked her to leash her dog
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/central-park-karen-calls-cops-black-man-leash-dog/

One could look at this in 3 ways: false accusation by a woman against a man; racism; sexism.

iptba · 26-05-2020 7:09pm

Women need a new world of welfare and work
Covid-19 recovery plan must address supports for those not on live register

Orla O'Connor

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/women-need-a-new-world-of-welfare-and-work-1.4261997

Some comments underneath

SKI
"By almost every measure, the impact of Covid-19 has been felt most by women. "
Well I can think of ONE pretty big measure where men have done worse.......answer below please!
--
ArnoBelfry

Reply to @SKI: dead men don't talk.
--

TFSmith

Reply to @ArnoBelfry: Here's some Hillary Clinton logic that will explain SKI's conundrum: Men die more often than women after being affected with COVID-19. Therefore, women are losing husbands, sons, and brothers in disproportionate numbers. Therefore, women are the main victims of COVID-19. QED.

--

She writes: "it also tells us that there was a slower decline in the number of unemployed women than men during the economic recovery."

This is undoubtedly correct, but there was a much slower increase in female unemployment in the 2008-2012 downturn too!

Male unemployment peaked at more than 5 percentage points higher than female in 2012, and it took another five years for male and female unemployment rates to converge.

---

Must everything be reduced to this sort of selective, distorted generalisation?

Meanwhile, I’ve never read a single report or lobbyist in The Irish Times about all the young Irishmen (many from the building sector) who went through worlds of mental health issues after the last depression and who, because of “liberal” “free market” “We need cheap labour” government and Irish Times ideology, found their jobs most threatened by foreign labourers and tradesmen.

Is there a single state-funded organisation for those men? For any men? There’s not even a single centre for male victims of domestic abuse in this entire state. Not one. And no organisation to lobby for it. All those issues affecting young lads are ignored bar the occasional mention of the gender reality of suicide statistics - which the girls never bring up (or that women live longer than men, and so much else). Neither are statistics such as that most solicitors are now female (https://www.lawsociety.ie/News/Media/Press-Releases/Irish-solicitors-profession-reaches-major-landmark-in-gender-balance/)) mentioned. There is no victimisation of women - and, indeed, decidedly the contrary when it comes to that very, very dark place of family law in Ireland.

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