Would you buy a house in a new estate today?

Kermit.de.frog · 03-10-2020 07:17PM #1

Curious to hear opinions on this as I know a buyer in the market atm (and a couple of potential first time buyers) who just refuse to consider buying in new housing estates because of the social housing allocation laws.

I think it's 10%(?) of all new housing has to be social housing.

I'm not even sure that 10% bothers them quite as much though as the worry the council will come in on top of that and purchase even more separately. So 10% becomes a bigger percentage of the stock in an estate.

The worries focus on social problems, possible depreciation of the value of your own property and even the fear of not being able to move if things go really down hill. It's often been said it only take one or two dysfunctional out of control families to bring a sizeable estate down.

What do you think?

Or maybe you think the potential problems are overblown?

Either way it does appear to be something that people are thinking seriously about when buying.

I guess it's a risk proposition as opposed to buying in already built up areas and the weight given to that risk.

03-10-2020 07:20PM

I would consider it, but I'd want to know that it was detached, or very well soundproofed, and in a small section where I knew no more building would be going on

Otherwise, nope. The biggest investment of your life and hugely dependent on a lottery to become a misery and a chain around your neck.

The social housing allocation needs rethinking badly, but then the entire approach to social housing and housing in general does, of course

Mrs OBumble · 03-10-2020 07:25PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

... the worry the council will come in on top of that and purchase even more separately. So 10% becomes a bigger percentage of the stock in an estate.

This.

I've heard of scenarios where the council owns all but a few houses, so effectively controls the management company. Nightmare IMHO.

It can even happen in an existing estate where the developer or an investor owns a block of houses.

03-10-2020 07:47PM

I would, but I'd be cautious.

To the extent that I'd want to look at the layout of the estate, where my house was, where the other houses (social) were going to be, etc. There's a relatively new house estate near me, still being built, albeit mostly been 'finished' for the last few years.

A quick walk about and you know fine well which parts are private and which are social. Almost cartoonish the way the social street within the estate has chalk/crayon drawings on every road/path surface, there are a load of parents (mostly mothers) out in their pyjamas chain-smoking at 1pm, there is graffiti on the walls, scooters, buggies etc. just fired all over the place.

The other streets are noticeably cleaner, and although there are kids out playing, parents watching them generally seem capable of dressing themselves.

Looking at the estate in person, the social houses have a tarmac driveway, all the private ones have cobble-lock, and the roof materials used are different (from looking at Google Maps). I presume/hope the interiors are to a lower standard, too, but other than that the houses all look very much the same. The social 'street' just managed to make theirs the 'undesirable area' within a year or so. (Naturally, the Gardai raided a house on that street at one point last year, also).

I think social tenants should be 'graded'. If I keep my head down and get a job and get on with life, I should be a grade A tenant, and given a decent house in a decent area. If I'm a scumbag that constantly has the gardai and council onto me, I should be a grade D, and only allocated a house, when one appears in an area that's already troublesome or has a rough reputation.

Putting Scummy McNackerhead in beside normal people doesn't work. They drag the area down, instead of theory of them bringing themselves up to the standards of their surrounds.

I'd prefer a completely detached house, that's not anywhere near a house estate, but if i was living somewhere where it was house estate or move quite a distance away, and i needed to be close for work etc, I'd just make sure to be doing my homework on where the houses are located, and who's ultimately going where.

You ideally don't want an end/corner house, you don't want a green area in front of you. You want to be on the row of road-facing houses at the front of the estate with nowhere to play or hang out.

L1011 · 03-10-2020 08:25PM

If you buy in an older estate there is absolutely nothing to prevent the house next door going on sale and being bought by the council or a voluntary housing body the week after you move in.

There is absolutely nothing to prevent you having neighbours from hell in a standalone house either - unless you're sited in the middle of a multi hectare site with nothing around you.

03-10-2020 08:45PM

L1011 wrote: »

If you buy in an older estate there is absolutely nothing to prevent the house next door going on sale and being bought by the council or a voluntary housing body the week after you move in.

There is absolutely nothing to prevent you having neighbours from hell in a standalone house either - unless you're sited in the middle of a multi hectare site with nothing around you.

There's nothing preventing the council renting it, either.

But you can at least try to manage the odds

Epping Forest · 03-10-2020 08:56PM

L1011 wrote: »

If you buy in an older estate there is absolutely nothing to prevent the house next door going on sale and being bought by the council or a voluntary housing body the week after you move in.

There is absolutely nothing to prevent you having neighbours from hell in a standalone house either - unless you're sited in the middle of a multi hectare site with nothing around you.

That may be true, but they aren't going to buy 10% (min) up to 50/60% (in extreme examples) of the estate. Also if your house is in an expensive area, it's unlikely the council will buy the house next door. They look for value. In some parts of Dublin 15 for example, a 4 bed semi-D can either cost €300k or €600k within a few km of each other.

Thelonious Monk · 03-10-2020 09:05PM

Yes I would, well I did. I would say up to half of the houses in my estate are social housing and you can usually hear a pin drop at night. It's also pretty easy to buy drugs!

Edgware · 03-10-2020 09:05PM

I've heard too many stories of hard working people buying homes including under the affordable scheme only to find Jason and Jacinta moving in next door. The chances ofthis happening in a long established estate are far less than in the new estate.
You break your bollix to buy and then the local toerags are landed in beside you on nominal rent which they wont pay anyway

rom · 03-10-2020 09:08PM

If a estate is too expensive for the council then the builder puts money into a fund instead. You might be able to get a list of this from the council.

Thelonious Monk · 03-10-2020 09:08PM

Pretty sure any house can be rented by HAP these days anyway

Paul_Mc1988 · 03-10-2020 09:16PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Pretty sure any house can be rented by HAP these days anyway

Yeah but the hap cant rent houses for rent around the 2-2.5k mark which is what desirable areas cost

suicide_circus · 03-10-2020 09:16PM

Its not like there's a lot of choice if you're looking to buy in an urban area. What are you gonna do? Spend another few years paying someone else's mortgage via exorbitant rents hoping the perfect home comes along or do you bend over, bite the bullet and roll the dice?

Colonel Claptrap · 03-10-2020 09:17PM

A friend of mine paid 420k for a beautiful house in a new estate.

Cluid moved Scummy McNackerhead in next door and he made their life a living hell. There were threats made to my friend and his family, abuse roared at them every time they went outside, cigarette butts flicked into the front and back gardens, gardai called on 3 occasions etc.

After less than a year they had enough and put the house up for sale. Covid didn't help and it sold for 40k less than they paid for it.
They're now renting and looking to buy another, cheaper home - but have vowed not to buy in a new estate again.

Also, Cluid ignored their emails and didn't take their complaints or garda reports seriously.

Kermit.de.frog · 03-10-2020 09:22PM

Seems like a game of Russian Roulette with these rules.

I wonder also is the issues for the locals at St Annes park in Dublin, for example, more to do with the prospective social housing block that will be built as part of those 600 apartments and less to do with the geese!

Thelonious Monk · 03-10-2020 09:33PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Seems like a game of Russian Roulette with these rules.

I wonder also is the issues for the locals at St Annes park in Dublin, for example, more to do with the prospective social housing block that will be built as part of those 600 apartments and less to do with the geese!

I'm from around there, all of the houses beside that development were council houses and some still are. I think they try and put locals into social housing and for the most part there aren't really any scumbags around here these days so I'm sure they'll be fine.

Epping Forest · 03-10-2020 09:45PM

A lot of private sales of new builds use the help to buy scheme also so if I'm not mistaken they can't sell the house for 5 years. A long time to wait if the "social" house next door contains neighbours from hell. So to answer the question I wouldn't buy in a new development. Go for an older more settled estate and factor in retrofitting cost when buying.

Mr_Muffin · 03-10-2020 09:48PM

It only takes one scummy family to ruin an entire estate, and I've to many horror stories. I wouldn't rule it totally out, but I'd be wary.

Kermit.de.frog · 04-10-2020 02:32AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Its not like there's a lot of choice if you're looking to buy in an urban area. What are you gonna do? Spend another few years paying someone else's mortgage via exorbitant rents hoping the perfect home comes along or do you bend over, bite the bullet and roll the dice?

Yes.

But I suppose the question is more should people have to roll the dice in relation to this?

It's a policy issue.

I suppose the question is - is it fair?

I don't think it is myself. I don't see why people who work hard to support their families, have very little themselves, should have to "roll the dice" when buying a home or their first home, on having nightmare tenants of the council next door as a matter of government policy.

iebamm2580 · 04-10-2020 07:24AM

doesnt only happen in dublin either, a little village estate in west tipperary, emly, has been ruined after moved scum from limerick city were relocated out there.

PsychoPete · 04-10-2020 07:30AM

There isn't a hope I'd buy a house in an estate, I'm way to used to the peace and quiet in the countryside and not having next door neighbour

Pkiernan · 04-10-2020 07:49AM

Theres a reason why people who can so so, build one off houses in more rural areas.

And its not just to annoy the current generation of wokeflakes.

rn · 04-10-2020 08:45AM

Had a nice house in a nice estate in an urban area that I bought at height of boom. All privately owned houses. Had mortgage nearly paid off. Developers had gone belly up and had many a debate with council to get estate taken over. Anyway in 2016 two houses that were under some sort of bank control and were auctioned. Both were bought by council. They weren't in bad condition, but were gutted and upgraded. Loads of new insulation added, new laminate floors to many rooms. Stoves fitted and all professionally cleaned. Looked like new houses really and defo higher standard than the existing residents. Anyway after the social housing dice were cast we ended up with a huge traveller family in one and an older couple in other. The older couple are grand and have kept place well, even started a garden. The travellers have been a challenging, although the parents have tried to be good. Silly stuff really like 15 kids monopolising green area when their cousins call over. There's 7 kids in the family with 6 boys under 8. The kids play with any toys left out, so all ours have to come inside. The traveller kids pee behind trees on green areas. There's been no fighting or crime thankfully, but what's clear is parents can't control them and you could easily see that coming in next 10 years. All the small things add up unfortunately.

Anyway solved the problem by selling up at a loss and started the mortgage journey again and bought a house on 3/4 an acre. Currently lovely neighbours and even if that changes which is unlikely in the country, there's plenty of mature hedging and solid fencing to keep people out.

My advice is don't buy a starter home as an investment. Buy your forever home or be prepared to walk away if gamble fails. Renting is not dead money if it prevents you making an expensive mistake

TexasTornado · 04-10-2020 08:50AM

Most social tenants are fine OP. Buy the house and get on with your life.

chosen1 · 04-10-2020 09:17AM

I wouldn't buy in a new estate but social housing wouldn't be my main concern.

My own estate now is a large estate built between 30 and 40 years. There's a really good mix of newer people with young families like myself along with grown up families and older people. There are some social and HAP tenants but they are greatly outnumbered by home owners or long term renters so there is rarely any issues with them.

There are estates down the road built in celtic tiger era and when you go into them there are throngs of teenagers hanging around playgrounds and green areas. They are generally no major problem but other areas nearby have had problems with antisocial behaviour from gangs their age.

I'd be broadly in favour of having more mixed estates rather than large blocks of social housing but antisocial tenants need to be dealt with. I liked the idea the Amsterdam mayor had years ago of creating 'scum villages'. Problem families would be confined to managed compounds until they changed their ways. Don’t think it ever came to fruition and can't see it happening here with our governments inability to offend anyone.

ParkRunner · 04-10-2020 09:21AM

I had a long post written but Boards is acting up. In summary though it depends on individual circumstances - family, savings, employment, personal preferences for location, hobbies.

A house in an estate with a large social housing element might be the only option for those starting off their careers/family but as circumstances change, the need for different housing options and the ability to get same will probably change. I have left a high density social housing estate in Dublin for a house in the country but I didn’t have the option of that ten years ago.

roofer1988 · 04-10-2020 09:25AM

Dont see why there should be any social housing for scumbags quick search to check their criminal record and if they have leave them off. Wat a stupid country where being lazy or a scumbag is considered a disability. A few food vouchers be plenty for them, even that is debatable. They dont work so cant be too hungry couple of scraps of bread be plenty for them, wat ever the stray dogs and cats dont eat be good enough for them

Car99 · 04-10-2020 09:41AM

iebamm2580 wrote: »

doesnt only happen in dublin either, a little village estate in west tipperary, emly, has been ruined after moved scum from limerick city were relocated out there.

How bad is it in that Emly estate now? Are all the houses occupied or have families had to move out because of trouble?

Biker79 · 04-10-2020 10:13AM

The real issue here is not social housing - its why there is so much cultural dysfunction among people who avail of social housing.

Where does all of this come from? Its making Dublin unliveable for a lot of people.

GarIT · 04-10-2020 10:30AM

TexasTornado wrote: »

Most social tenants are fine OP. Buy the house and get on with your life.

Do you have statistical proof of this ridiculous claim?

jrosen · 04-10-2020 10:34AM

Im always really torn on this issue.

Many moons ago I bought my first home via the affordable housing scheme with the LA. There were 4 units that went to the council and all 4 sold to normal working people who simply didnt earn alot of money. So in theory I dont have issue with social housing. This part of social housing I would like to see more of.

The problem with new developments isn't always the partV which allocates 10% to social housing, its the housing agencies who are on the hunt for a minimum of 20 homes.
So you may buy a home in a development of 100 houses, knowing and accepting 10 of them are going to social housing. A housing agency comes in and suddenly the 10 social houses become 30 social houses.

I dont agree with some of the housing policies. But what has become evident to me through personal experience is that the Local Authorities aim is to house as many people as they can and they will take any opportunity to do so.
I would be very wary of buying in any new development. Im not saying dont, but you would want your wits about you and do your homework.

04-10-2020 10:43AM

Waste of time worrying about it. Old estate or new build.

I live in a 30 year old settled estate where the council has snapped up every available house that has come up for sale, at least 5 houses on my road.

You've no say in who buys next door to you, whether council or private owner.

So buy where you want to live.

Kivaro · 04-10-2020 10:53AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Waste of time worrying about it. Old estate or new build.

I live in a 30 year old settled estate where the council has snapped up every available house that has come up for sale, at least 5 houses on my road.

And that's very unfair to young people trying to buy homes, as they cannot compete against the unlimited resources of the council and homeless "charities". I've seen it in a nearby town where young couples with families are forced out of their home town due to the lack of affordable homes into rural areas, only to be replaced by non-EU nationals (refugees etc.) and Irish non-workers getting houses bought up by the council. The working couples then have to drive into town for employment and to bring the children to their schools.
Not only is this environmentally unsound, but it also plain and simple unfair.

04-10-2020 11:08AM

Many people in social housing work.

Kivaro · 04-10-2020 11:11AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Many people in social housing work.

Of course they do. Never said that they did not.

GarIT · 04-10-2020 11:12AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Many people in social housing work.

That's a myth. and if they do work they don't work enough or don't declare it to Revenue. and if they are part of the small % that actually do work then they should be housing themselves so are actually more scum then those not working while in social housing.

TexasTornado · 04-10-2020 11:15AM

GarIT wrote: »

Do you have statistical proof of this ridiculous claim?

Not statistical no but personal. Living in a social affordable estate and never a problem bar one or two families. I'm all for integration as coming from the US iv'e seen how large scale social housing projects work and it's an utter disaster.

Wildly Boaring · 04-10-2020 11:20AM

GarIT wrote: »

That's a myth. and if they do work they don't work enough or don't declare it to Revenue. and if they are part of the small % that actually do work then they should be housing themselves so are actually more scum then those not working while in social housing.

Sweeping statement there.
There's a council to our back right.
Parents and 3 late teens.
4 working.
Although the 1 has her own child already

nullzero · 04-10-2020 11:22AM

I think another issue worthy of consideration is that of car parking.

I've heard of some developments allocating 1.25 spaces per housing unit, meaning you're fighting with four other households for the use of a shared space forever.

JohnnyFlash · 04-10-2020 11:22AM

Absolutely not. I'm sure most people in social housing are the finest, but you don't want a half-a-million euro gamble to find out. And all it takes is one or two families in an estate to bring everything down to their level. It's an uncomfortable discussion that polite society don't want to have.

My own two young lads are in their late teens, so a good few years away from buying a house just yet. I'll do everything in my power to bribe and beg them to purchase in a mature part of east Dublin, preferably on the Dart line, and close to a good fee-paying school.

GarIT · 04-10-2020 11:28AM

TexasTornado wrote: »

Not statistical no but personal. Living in a social affordable estate and never a problem bar one or two families. I'm all for integration as coming from the US iv'e seen how large scale social housing projects work and it's an utter disaster.

Anecdotal evidence isn't really revlevant. It's not about problem families. You say they are fine, they are relying on social housing therefore they are scum, what amazing contruibutions have they made to the country to elevate them from scum to fine.

04-10-2020 11:29AM

GarIT wrote: »

That's a myth. and if they do work they don't work enough or don't declare it to Revenue. and if they are part of the small % that actually do work then they should be housing themselves so are actually more scum then those not working while in social housing.

Not a myth.

The basic truth is that not everyone who works will command a salary large enough to be able to save for a deposit or qualify for a mortgage - and even if they did, they would not qualify for a mortgage high enough to buy at today's prices.

This does not mean they do not "work enough" or make them "scum" Stupid statement.

GarIT · 04-10-2020 11:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a myth.

The basic truth is that not everyone who works will command a salary large enough to be able to save for a deposit or qualify for a mortgage - and even if they did, they would not qualify for a mortgage high enough to buy at today's prices.

This does not mean they do not "work enough". Stupid statement.

They can rent.

Maybe they are working parttime is what I meant by not working enough.

GarIT · 04-10-2020 11:31AM

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Sweeping statement there.
There's a council to our back right.
Parents and 3 late teens.
4 working.
Although the 1 has her own child already

Great 1 family out of 200,000

GarIT · 04-10-2020 11:32AM

This discussion is just annoying me, I want to enjoy my Sunday so I'm out. If you're not housing yourself by default you are scum that is my opion on the matter.

04-10-2020 11:36AM

GarIT wrote: »

They can rent.

Maybe they are working parttime is what I meant by not working enough.

Many people on low income work will rely on HAP to rent.

I am sure you think they are "scum" too.

04-10-2020 11:37AM

GarIT wrote: »

This discussion is just annoying me, I want to enjoy my Sunday so I'm out. If you're not housing yourself by default you are scum that is my opion on the matter.

Thanks for proving my last point.

Everlong1 · 04-10-2020 11:43AM

Biker79 wrote: »

The real issue here is not social housing - its why there is so much cultural dysfunction among people who avail of social housing.

Where does all of this come from? Its making Dublin unliveable for a lot of people.

Why? The growth of the welfare state. Instead of welfare being provided for decent people who've fallen on hard times, it's now an industry where you can opt to live the welfare lifestyle by choice. We reward people who have chosen to drop out of society. The inevitable result is generations of families who assume that the Government owes them a living.

Irish politicians - Fianna Fail in particular - have used the welfare system as a means to buy votes. Promising to increase welfare is a guaranteed vote getter. Fine Gael, to their credit, have made noises about the need to change this culture, with Leo Varadkar in particular making noises about welfare fraud and the by now infamous statement about rewarding people who get up early. Of course he and Fine Gael have been condemned for this by the usual lefty suspects as being right wing nutters determined to herd the unfortunate poor people into concentration camps. Meanwhile, career welfare lifestyle merchants are pissing themselves laughing at those who work for a living.

AndrewJRenko · 04-10-2020 11:44AM

On the broader issue, there is something special that happens when a bunch of young couples, mostly around the same stage of life, with small kids or about to have kids, move into a new estate when it is built. This creates friendships for life, with the kids running in and out of each other's houses, and the parents getting to share in these important stages of life.

rn wrote: »

Had a nice house in a nice estate in an urban area that I bought at height of boom. All privately owned houses. Had mortgage nearly paid off. Developers had gone belly up and had many a debate with council to get estate taken over. Anyway in 2016 two houses that were under some sort of bank control and were auctioned. Both were bought by council. They weren't in bad condition, but were gutted and upgraded. Loads of new insulation added, new laminate floors to many rooms. Stoves fitted and all professionally cleaned. Looked like new houses really and defo higher standard than the existing residents. Anyway after the social housing dice were cast we ended up with a huge traveller family in one and an older couple in other. The older couple are grand and have kept place well, even started a garden. The travellers have been a challenging, although the parents have tried to be good. Silly stuff really like 15 kids monopolising green area when their cousins call over. There's 7 kids in the family with 6 boys under 8. The kids play with any toys left out, so all ours have to come inside. The traveller kids pee behind trees on green areas. There's been no fighting or crime thankfully, but what's clear is parents can't control them and you could easily see that coming in next 10 years. All the small things add up unfortunately.

Honestly, if that's your definition of anti-social behaviour, you've lived a fairly sheltered, privileged life.

GarIT wrote: »

That's a myth. and if they do work they don't work enough or don't declare it to Revenue. and if they are part of the small % that actually do work then they should be housing themselves so are actually more scum then those not working while in social housing.

Do you have statistical proof of this ridiculous claim? Anecdotal evidence isn't really revlevant (sic).

GarIT wrote: »

This discussion is just annoying me, I want to enjoy my Sunday so I'm out. If you're not housing yourself by default you are scum that is my opion on the matter.

Where and how do you expect the minimum wage earners who mind your children and care for your parents, who clean your toilets and serve your coffee to live?

Wildly Boaring · 04-10-2020 11:45AM

GarIT wrote: »

This discussion is just annoying me, I want to enjoy my Sunday so I'm out. If you're not housing yourself by default you are scum that is my opion on the matter.

Well you're a person of reason

The disabled
The aged
The sick
The abandoned mothers
The abandoned fathers
The poor

Scum?

TexasTornado · 04-10-2020 11:49AM

GarIT wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence isn't really revlevant. It's not about problem families. You say they are fine, they are relying on social housing therefore they are scum, what amazing contruibutions have they made to the country to elevate them from scum to fine.

You seem very angry. I don't see why you view them as scum. Every developed nation has social housing to some extent. Are they all scum?

Not everyone can afford 400k for a house in Dublin for instance.

Would you buy a house in a new estate today?

Would you buy in a new estate? 241 votes

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