PSNI officer suspended over incident at massacre commemoration.

political analyst · 06-02-2021 11:53pm #1

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0206/1195534-psni-apology/

A PSNI officer has been suspended following the controversial arrest of a Troubles survivor at a memorial event.

PSNI Chief Constable Simon Byrne said that another officer had been re-positioned, as he apologised to all those who were present or had been affected by what they had seen on social media.

Mark Sykes, who was shot several times in the loyalist massacre at a betting shop in Belfast in 1992, was later released after Friday's incident on the city's Ormeau Road.

Angry exchanges unfolded at the wreath-laying anniversary event for the five people killed in the Sean Graham bookmakers attack, when police intervened amid suspicions the gathering breached lockdown rules.

Has Simon Byrne thrown those officers under a bus, so to speak?

If Covid restrictions were not being adhered to then why should the officers not have intervened?

If the officers had good reason to arrest Mr Sykes then why has one of them been suspended and the other being re-assigned?

hatrickpatrick · 07-02-2021 7:34am

Because they took absolutely no action at an intimidation march by a bunch of masked loyalist scumbags just a few days prior.

The arrest itself isn't controversial, the double standard on display is.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/masked-gang-video-linked-to-uvf-has-done-us-no-favours-admits-psni-chief-byrne-40053769.html

Ulster Unionist MLA Mike Nesbitt asked Mr Byrne: "Can you imagine looking out your window on Tuesday afternoon and seeing 40 or 50 masked men from a named criminal gang, walking past your house, with police officers observing. What would you think of the police at that point?"
Mr Byrne replied: "I try and put myself in that position, because I don't want to try and pretend - the images in the public domain really are quite atrocious when you've got a whole group of thugs seen alongside police. My brief is that we had intervened and were herding that crowd away from where there was an immediate threat to a small number of people in the community centre.

No violent arrests there. That's the problem. If the police are going to use such tactics, it has to be equally applied to both sides. One was a funeral and one was a f*cking gang FFS, and the former is the one in which a person is violently arrested? F*ck that.

EDIT: https://twitter.com/trishdevlin/status/1356664673031114752

rapul · 07-02-2021 7:49am

Good, poor man being arrested, disgraceful behaviour. Double standards.

Green Peter · 07-02-2021 7:50am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Because they took absolutely no action at an intimidation march by a bunch of masked loyalist scumbags just a few days prior.

The arrest itself isn't controversial, the double standard on display is.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/masked-gang-video-linked-to-uvf-has-done-us-no-favours-admits-psni-chief-byrne-40053769.html

No violent arrests there. That's the problem. If the police are going to use such tactics, it has to be equally applied to both sides. One was a funeral and one was a f*cking gang FFS, and the former is the one in which a person is violently arrested? F*ck that.

EDIT: https://twitter.com/trishdevlin/status/1356664673031114752

So Two wrongs make a right, the officer who made the arrest is unlikely to have been working at the previous event. Sounds like they've been thrown under the bus alright. Any responsibility on the event organisers during this lockdown / pandemic. Typical police situation, dammed if you do dammed if you don't. Easy see how the police chief got to where he is.

hatrickpatrick · 07-02-2021 11:47am

Green Peter wrote: »

So Two wrongs make a right, the officer who made the arrest is unlikely to have been working at the previous event. Sounds like they've been thrown under the bus alright. Any responsibility on the event organisers during this lockdown / pandemic. Typical police situation, dammed if you do dammed if you don't. Easy see how the police chief got to where he is.

I haven't been able to watch the video of the arrest itself so I'm not going to say whether the officer should or shouldn't have been suspended - as far as I'm concerned as someone with an immune compromised family member, throw the f*cking book at those who are violating COVID restrictions, even if it is for an understandable compassionate reason - I for one would like us to get out of this situation as soon as possible before we all fall apart from lack of social contact so I have little sympathy for those caught breaking the rules and dealt with accordingly.

However, in the context of a conflict such as that which Northern Ireland has been through and is to some extent still going through, the police as an organisation should be well aware of how utterly asinine and downright dangerous it is for flagrant double standards such as this to be on display - and indeed, the police chief seems to be acknowledging this very issue. When you have a police force which was documented to be essentially a law enforcement wing of one side in the conflict for many decades and which has only been reformed comparatively recently, everybody making these calls needs to be acutely aware of optics. Knowing that they were being condemned in the manner they were for standing by and allowing the loyalist intimidation march to go ahead, it could be argued that it was extremely short sighted and tone deaf to make such an arrest in this manner at this particular event.

Personally, my condemnation would come from the opposite direction. Again having not seen the video, assuming excessive force wasn't used, I would argue that the cop who arrested this guy likely didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't be punished. However, everyone who was present at the aforementioned loyalist march and did not intervene should 100% be disciplined for that. It's the earlier march and the policing thereof which is the problem here, not the arrest at this event.

Again, this is coming from someone who hasn't been able to watch the video (Twitter videos won't play in my outdated version of Chrome so I'll have to look it up on my phone later) but that would be my stance. Throw the book at everyone - everyone - who violates COVID restrictions. Throwing it at Republicans and not Loyalists is f*cking moronic and assuming we give the PSNI the benefit of the doubt as a non-partisan police force, thereby assuming no intentional malice in the uneven application of force, somebody who's calling the shots needs to sharpen their political antenna a bit and get some sense of optics into their head for future reference.

And yes, before anyone asks, I did condemn the Storey funeral last year and Mary Lou, a politician who I admire and respect, for participating. It was idiotic and immoral and they absolutely should have been taken to task for it - in my view, to be honest, they weren't taken to task enough.

07-02-2021 2:47pm

id be suprised if sinn fein continue with their support of the psni

How anyone could look at the incidents this week and conclude the psni arent biased is beyond me

You'd imagine ex-ruc members,would want this to pass off quiet as possible,so as not shine a light on what happened here orginally

Normal One · 07-02-2021 3:11pm

Meanwhile...

https://twitter.com/trishdevlin/status/1358357820849197057?s=19

political analyst · 08-02-2021 8:29pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0208/1195819-psni-memorial-arrest/

A meeting between Sinn Féin and Northern Ireland's chief constable following a controversial operation at a commemoration of a loyalist atrocity has been described as "forthright" and "frank".

The party's vice president Michelle O'Neill said she told Simon Byrne of "unprecedented anger" over the arrest of Mark Sykes, a victim of the Sean Graham bookmakers shootings.

In regard to claims from some unionists that the move to suspend one officer and reposition another was pandering to Sinn Féin, he said: "This was an objective evidence-based decision, we looked very carefully at what we did.

"By no means was it a knee jerk, we're not in anyone's pocket but it was recognising this was a serious matter."

He denied scapegoating the two officers, who only joined the PSNI last July.

"We weren't influenced by anybody else, we weren't pandering to criticism or any other inferences," he said.

"I fully understand some of the accusations but we have to work within due process and actually look at the conduct regime that informs our decisions, sometimes they are not popular but this isn't about scapegoating, there's a process that will now take place, we don't presume what the outcome is."

downcow · 09-02-2021 9:08pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

id be suprised if sinn fein continue with their support of the psni

How anyone could look at the incidents this week and conclude the psni arent biased is beyond me

You'd imagine ex-ruc members,would want this to pass off quiet as possible,so as not shine a light on what happened here orginally

Do you realise that it was a catholic officer from Roi who intervened and made the arrest?? This is typical of trying to paint everything in the north as orange

09-02-2021 9:11pm

downcow wrote: »

Do you realise that it was a catholic officer from Roi who intervened and made the arrest?? This is typical of trying to paint everything in the north as orange

yes??

And this makes the psni less biased in their application of the law,how?

Should people blindy support the psni for whats gone here,because of who/where the officer is from??looks to me,they arent impartial anyway

Odhinn · 09-02-2021 9:29pm

downcow wrote: »

Do you realise that it was a catholic officer from Roi who intervened and made the arrest?? This is typical of trying to paint everything in the north as orange

Doesn't matter if he was.

McMurphy · 09-02-2021 9:43pm

downcow wrote: »

Do you realise that it was a catholic officer from Roi who intervened and made the arrest?? This is typical of trying to paint everything in the north as orange

The PSNI member was a Catholic from the 26 counties?

Relevance?

Surely you are not trying to imply that this officer being Roman Catholic, and from the Republic of Ireland means the PSNI, as a police force can't be deemed impartial on the back of that?

Judging the whole force by the religious persuasion, or where an officer is from is hardly a road you wish to travel now, is it?

downcow · 10-02-2021 8:40am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

yes??

And this makes the psni less biased in their application of the law,how?

Should people blindy support the psni for whats gone here,because of who/where the officer is from??looks to me,they arent impartial anyway

So tell me what the officers done wrong and what the guards might have done differently ?

Green Peter · 10-02-2021 8:44am

McMurphy wrote: »

The PSNI member was a Catholic from the 26 counties?

Relevance?

Surely you are not trying to imply that this officer being Roman Catholic, and from the Republic of Ireland means the PSNI, as a police force can't be deemed impartial on the back of that?

Judging the whole force by the religious persuasion, or where an officer is from is hardly a road you wish to travel now, is it?

It's very relevant. He was from a nationalist background. He should be commended for being prepared to take action. The problem was the inaction at the previous event. This is actually proof that the police force is becoming more reflective of society and the changes Patten sought have happened to a large degree. Sinn fein will never be happy.

downcow · 10-02-2021 8:48am

Green Peter wrote: »

It's very relevant. He was from a nationalist background. He should be commended for being prepared to take action. The problem was the inaction at the previous event.

Agreed

Peregrinus · 10-02-2021 8:56am

In the NI context, there will undoubtedly be instructions and/or guidance to police officers on the enforcement of Covid restrictions at events like this. All police forces wil have policies and protocols in place for enforcement of Covid restrictions, and in the NI context they will cover this rather sensitive policy intersection.

At first glance, the fact that an officer has been suspended suggests to me that his has failed to follow instructions on this matter, or that he has interpreted the instruction in a way/made a judgement that is so egregious that it's hard to take it as a good faith, competent, professional implementation of the instructions. Hence, suspension followed by disciplinary action of some kind.

Police forces don't impose all laws to the maximum extent, at all times, in all circumstances. Life would be pretty much impossible if they did. And, while a good deal is left to the judgment of the indvidual officer, there are also collective judgments about enforcement, embodied in orders, instructions, policies, protocols, which individual officers are expected to observe. We don't know a great deal at this stage, but I'm thinking that's what's at the bottom of this.

Green Peter · 10-02-2021 9:03am

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the NI context, there will undoubtedly be instructions and/or guidance to police officers on the enforcement of Covid restrictions at events like this. All police forces wil have policies and protocols in place for enforcement of Covid restrictions, and in the NI context they will cover this rather sensitive policy intersection.

At first glance, the fact that an officer has been suspended suggests to me that his has failed to follow instructions on this matter, or that he has interpreted the instruction in a way/made a judgement that is so egregious that it's hard to take it as a good faith, competent, professional implementation of the instructions. Hence, suspension followed by disciplinary action of some kind.

Police forces don't impose all laws to the maximum extent, at all times, in all circumstances. Life would be pretty much impossible if they did. And, while a good deal is left to the judgment of the indvidual officer, there are also collective judgments about enforcement, embodied in orders, instructions, policies, protocols, which individual officers are expected to observe. We don't know a great deal at this stage, but I'm thinking that's what's at the bottom of this.

He made the arrest based on his judgement at the time reacting to an ongoing incident in real time. He was actually correct and within his powers. He was forced into it by people who probably were delighted for it to happen. The police chief is trying to save his own neck. There is still an element of paramilitary at these events on both sides and they try to undermine the police who have to thread a fine line to try and be politically correct. The fact that the officer was a catholic from the ROI is a real credit to him and the force and shows how far we have come.

Peregrinus · 10-02-2021 9:08am

Green Peter wrote: »

He made the arrest based on his judgement at the time reacting to an ongoing incident in real time. He was actually correct and within his powers.

All of this may be true, but what we don't know is how consistent his judgment and his actions were with his orders and his instructions. Until we know the answer to that question, I don't think we can make claims like "the police chief is trying to save his own neck"; he may have a much better reason for acting as he has done.

downcow · 10-02-2021 9:09am

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the NI context, there will undoubtedly be instructions and/or guidance to police officers on the enforcement of Covid restrictions at events like this. All police forces wil have policies and protocols in place for enforcement of Covid restrictions, and in the NI context they will cover this rather sensitive policy intersection.

At first glance, the fact that an officer has been suspended suggests to me that his has failed to follow instructions on this matter, or that he has interpreted the instruction in a way/made a judgement that is so egregious that it's hard to take it as a good faith, competent, professional implementation of the instructions. Hence, suspension followed by disciplinary action of some kind.

Police forces don't impose all laws to the maximum extent, at all times, in all circumstances. Life would be pretty much impossible if they did. And, while a good deal is left to the judgment of the indvidual officer, there are also collective judgments about enforcement, embodied in orders, instructions, policies, protocols, which individual officers are expected to observe. We don't know a great deal at this stage, but I'm thinking that's what's at the bottom of this.

That was exactly my thought until the facts started to seep out.
Too many to type but
Chief con went on live nolan show to apologise, but was completely unclear, when pushed, what he was apologising for. He has been running scarred of the shinners all year, evidenced at Story funeral etc.
He blamed the officers.
The officers were just out of training college this year. They arrived upon a group of 30-40 breaking the regulations. They phone in to their commanding officers for advice. They received advice on how to deal with it sensitively. They followed this advice when memorial was over.
The crowd became difficult. One officer was assaulted. The officers were swore at by one individual in particular and that individual was warned that if he swore at them again he would be arrested. He did and they arrested him.
Very quickly the chief con panicked, arranged for the release of the person and apologised, and suspended one young officer and moved to other to office duties.

Personally I would prefer the arrest had not been made, but it seems like a legitimate arrest and if it had not been a shinner there would not have been a word about it.

Those attending originally told press there were 5 or 6 people. . Yesterday they changed that to 15 or 16. The officers said 30 to 40 and the psni have said those figures accurate - and they have body cams.

So the way some present this on here should demonstrate what we are up against in ni.

Green Peter · 10-02-2021 9:15am

Peregrinus wrote: »

All of this may be true, but what we don't know is how consistent his judgment and his actions were with his orders and his instructions. Until we know the answer to that question, I don't think we can make claims like "the police chief is trying to save his own neck"; he may have a much better reason for acting as he has done.

We know the police officers actions and we know the police chiefs actions. The police chief would be more in line to suspend the police officers who failed to act at the first event. I suspect a lack of resources to deal with the numbers involved may have been a factor in the policing of that event.

Peregrinus · 10-02-2021 9:23am

Yeah, this is a difficult area. I don't doubt that the arrest was a "legitimate arrest" in the sense that it wasn't unlawful. But the police force expects a bit more of its officers than that their behaviour be not actually illegal. In particular officers are supposed to de-escalate confrontational situations. if were able to wait until the memorial was over, that looks like a point at which we might hope the group would disperse, and the regulation-infringing behaviour cease. So, if things have gone that far, maybe the professional judgment would be not to intervene, or at the very least to give it a bit more time, till more of the crowd would have dispersed, and then intervene if there were continuing breaches. From what you say they were told to handle the matter sensitively, but the way they actually handled it resulted in assaults, swearing, warnings and eventually an arrest. That's not how sensitive handling normally plays out, to be fair. So I can see that the more senior officers might be very ticked off about this.

Part of the problem, again from what you say, may have been the relative inexperience of the officers on the ground; de-escalation is a skill that improves with experience and example; maybe they hadn't had enough of that. And if they are being punished for being inexperienced, yeah, that would be unfair.

downcow · 10-02-2021 9:44am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, this is a difficult area. I don't doubt that the arrest was a "legitimate arrest" in the sense that it wasn't unlawful. But the police force expects a bit more of its officers than that their behaviour be not actually illegal. In particular officers are supposed to de-escalate confrontational situations. if were able to wait until the memorial was over, that looks like a point at which we might hope the group would disperse, and the regulation-infringing behaviour cease. So, if things have gone that far, maybe the professional judgment would be not to intervene, or at the very least to give it a bit more time, till more of the crowd would have dispersed, and then intervene if there were continuing breaches. From what you say they were told to handle the matter sensitively, but the way they actually handled it resulted in assaults, swearing, warnings and eventually an arrest. That's not how sensitive handling normally plays out, to be fair. So I can see that the more senior officers might be very ticked off about this.

Part of the problem, again from what you say, may have been the relative inexperience of the officers on the ground; de-escalation is a skill that improves with experience and example; maybe they hadn't had enough of that. And if they are being punished for being inexperienced, yeah, that would be unfair.

I don’t disagree with you, but a factor, raised by an earlier poster, is that these memorial events have a sinister paramilitary element often in attendance. Shinners see these as oppunities to put their boot in the state. Look how quick Michelle etc were on it. SF still will not conform or deny that they organised the illegal gathering.

The only way, unfortunately, to avoid escalating with some of these types is to walk away and let them do what they like. And you are right sometimes that is the only course to prevent them using the situation to their advantage.

Nothing surprises me about what happened. My problem is with the chief con hanging a young catholic officer out to dry so as he doesn’t upset the shinners

Peregrinus · 10-02-2021 9:53am

downcow wrote: »

. . . My problem is with the chief con hanging a young catholic officer out to dry so as he doesn’t upset the shinners

You're overlooking the possiblity that, for the reasons you give yourself the CC's problem is that the officer didn't "walk away" and so "prevent them using the situation to their advantage", which would have been the correct policing decision (and, possibly, was what applicable protocols or instructions required him to do).

I don't know this to be the case, but it would explain the course of events. And it would also explain why, in an analogous situation last week involving the other shower, a different course of action was taken, and nobody was disciplined. So I have to think it's a very live possiblity.

Dyr · 10-02-2021 10:40am

Green Peter wrote: »

It's very relevant. He was from a nationalist background. He should be commended for being prepared to take action. The problem was the inaction at the previous event. This is actually proof that the police force is becoming more reflective of society and the changes Patten sought have happened to a large degree. Sinn fein will never be happy.

PSNI was about 70% protestant last time I checked. Also was revealed to have witheld significant information about the massacre in grahams bookies just a week before the commemoration, thats a force that more reflective of the RUC than society. The main change Patten brought in was reveresed (50-50 recruitment). Anything else you want to be corrected on?

He was a Catholic from the republic so therefore he was from a nationalist background? Interesting assumption.

From the video footage he deserved to be suspended. I assume you've seen the footage?

10-02-2021 10:43am

Is there any clarity available as to why this person was arrested

That would seem somewhat relevant like

Green Peter · 10-02-2021 12:57pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is there any clarity available as to why this person was arrested

That would seem somewhat relevant like

Likely Public Order, I'm sure they were emotionally upset and lost the cool but there comes a stage when people go to far and leave police with little option. The fact that it was a catholic officer from the ROI would mean there were little or no prejudiced actions in this case. They reacted to the situation as it developed. Some people use these situations to push the boat out, because they feel the police hands are tied. I'm sure the police officer involved will take legal advice as regards the actions taken against him and I can see him turning the tables on the chief constable in due course.

downcow · 10-02-2021 2:15pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're overlooking the possiblity that, for the reasons you give yourself the CC's problem is that the officer didn't "walk away" and so "prevent them using the situation to their advantage", which would have been the correct policing decision (and, possibly, was what applicable protocols or instructions required him to do).

I don't know this to be the case, but it would explain the course of events. And it would also explain why, in an analogous situation last week involving the other shower, a different course of action was taken, and nobody was disciplined. So I have to think it's a very live possibility.

He took advice from his sergeant and applied it. He was told to intervene after it was over, which he done

10-02-2021 2:19pm

downcow wrote: »

Do you realise that it was a catholic officer from Roi who intervened and made the arrest?? This is typical of trying to paint everything in the north as orange

It's amazing how many people can't grasp the simple logic here.

10-02-2021 2:26pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

All of this may be true, but what we don't know is how consistent his judgment and his actions were with his orders and his instructions. Until we know the answer to that question, I don't think we can make claims like "the police chief is trying to save his own neck"; he may have a much better reason for acting as he has done.

You cannot be ordered NOT to enforce a law if you are not being guided as the scene, by a senior officer.

As an example, the commissioner can suggest the 4 Es be utilized but if a Garda makes a decision to issue a fine then that's the decision made at scene. Once it's legal, it's legal. The commissioner can be annoyed all he wants, he can even rip up the fine but he can't discipline and correctly so. That's a tactic that directly impedes ethics and individual decision making based on the circumstances.

This decision is blatant abandoning of an officer for political reasons.

downcow · 10-02-2021 2:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there any clarity available as to why this person was arrested

That would seem somewhat relevant like

Mark Sykes was arrested.
Here he is opposing the GFA. SF and IRA had gone to soft for him and sold out
http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9804/19/nireland/

He has admitted swearing at the PSNI officer because the officer had taken his notebook out, and being told to not swear at him again or he would be arrested. He admits answering that request by swearing again.

He is still telling lies about the numbers, when the psni have confirmed that the officers estimate of 30-40 people is correct.

so there you go. Sykes was just a nice guy cooperating with the police!

riffmongous · 10-02-2021 8:51pm

An officer with such terrible judgement as to arrest the survivor of a massacre for swearing, shortly after the rest of his force chaperoned a terrorist show of force, shouldn't be allowed out on the street.

PSNI officer suspended over incident at massacre commemoration.

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