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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Semi Auto Rifles contd

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    #32
    JP22
    Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭JP22


    Cass wrote: »
    Nothing in the Commissioner's guidelines has any legal standing, realistically. .... The Garda Commissioner does not legislate.

    Correct, however, coming from a H&S/Risk Management background (CMIOSH) with lots of legislation, anytime an approved Guideline/Code of Practice/Best Practice or similar such document is used and accepted, it get quasi legal standing.

    Its not legislation per-se under the eyes of the law, nor should it be but by being accepted and used, it becomes a semi legal stick to ensure compliance.

    If such document is used incorrectly and abused and with everyone interpreting it differently, them mayhem will occur.


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    #33
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Cass wrote: »
    At least 5 others on this thread have restricted licenses/firearms. Multiple licenses if you count them either simultaneously or consecutively over the years.

    That is not this thread.

    And you'd know this from the how many restricted firearms you've owned/licensed. After all that is what you are claiming! An argument from authority. In other words the higher the number of licenses/firearms the more knowledge and respect that person should receive? So based on that principle i'll ask again, how many have you that you can make the claim that jb88 has every right to?

    As have at least 5 others on this thread.

    Absolutely they should find it and read it. Its good information. By the way here is a link for anyone looking for that thread.

    They are in the context of this thread. I don't care how many restricted licenses/firearms he has applied for or gotten. Its simply not germane to the topic. The topic has mutated from those using one to the ability to apply, not the amount of times or even the process.

    Not accusing, stating. To accuse someone is to level a claim of wrongdoing. Patting yourself on the back is not a maleficence, but for the purpose of this thread irrelevant.

    To use your word of the day, irrelevant.

    Actually, utterly irrelevant.

    This is a forum for discussion, it's for all to contribute if they so wish.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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    #34
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Correct, however, coming from a H&S/Risk Management background (CMIOSH) with lots of legislation, anytime an approved Guideline/Code of Practice/Best Practice or similar such document is used and accepted, it get quasi legal standing.

    Its not legislation per-se under the eyes of the law, nor should it be but by being accepted and used, it becomes a semi legal stick to ensure compliance.

    If such document is used incorrectly and abused and with everyone interpreting it differently, them mayhem will occur.

    Absolutely.
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    #35
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    To use your word of the day, irrelevant.

    Actually, utterly irrelevant.
    Brilliant.

    You quote my "extension" of your reply/point and label it irrelevant. You do realise you've just called your own point irrelevant? Utterly irrelevant, actually.
    This is a forum for discussion, it's for all to contribute if they so wish.
    Correct and right.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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    #36
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    tonysopprano wrote: »
    .
    Issuing persons and applicants alike should be mindful that, on 18th September 2015, the
    Minister for Justice and Equality announced that any new restricted firearm certificates
    for centre fire semi-automatic rifles, granted between that date and the enactment of
    proposed legislation banning the future licensing of these types of firearms, shall stand
    revoked.

    https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/commissioner-s-guidelines-2018.pdf


    While people correctly state that this doesn't have any legal standing, its a pretty good insight into the way the PTB, gardai/doj/minister are or were thinking about Semi-cf's. With the cf pistols, all i heard was "Oh they've learned their lesson with the Brophy case, they'll never do anything now, Pistols are safe". One poor git in Limerick getting shot, and even though it was nothing to do with us, it was used as a stick to beat us with and Cf pistols were gone. The sword of Damocles hangs over all our heads.


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    #37
    smmember20
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    tudderone wrote: »
    Yes there was, the chief super said if i wanted it, go to court for it. As you might remember back in 08, there was a crash and loads of people lost their jobs, i was one of them. Spending thousands on a court case, made as much sense back then as putting a deposit on a new Rolls Royce.

    So I don't get it, did you have a certificte before 2008 or not, was it that you applied and they turned you down, the only point I am making is that if you had a certificate before 2008 you can make application today under the current legislation and 95% you will be granted it as long as you fulfil the restricted firearms criteria the most important one being you had it before 2008.

    From you post it seems like you lost the Sig to the value of 3K?


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    #38
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    tudderone wrote: »
    I know where it is, i could apply for it again, but the less contact i have with Gardai, the better.

    Your business is your business but it costs nothing to put in an application. Just sayin.


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    #39
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    JP22 wrote: »
    Correct, however, coming from a H&S/Risk Management background (CMIOSH) with lots of legislation, anytime an approved Guideline/Code of Practice/Best Practice or similar such document is used and accepted, it get quasi legal standing.

    Its not legislation per-se under the eyes of the law, nor should it be but by being accepted and used, it becomes a semi legal stick to ensure compliance.

    If such document is used incorrectly and abused and with everyone interpreting it differently, them mayhem will occur.

    The Commissioner's guidelines isn't viewed as having quasi-legal standing by the courts in the same fashion as H&S Guidelines/Codes of Practice you mentioned above so I guess we can be thankful for that.


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    #40
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    The Commissioner's guidelines isn't viewed as having quasi-legal standing by the courts in the same fashion as H&S Guidelines/Codes of Practice you mentioned above so I guess we can be thankful for that.

    Indeed, they are instead interpreted as gospel when it suits the S/CS, and a guideline otherwise. :P

    Case in point, the CS said the 1000 rounds for target shooting was - a guideline I can choose not to follow.
    Few minutes later, still the CS - the commissioners guidelines are what I go by, no exceptions. :rolleyes:

    Sometimes it is comic to hear them, but I really wish those interviews were recorded. :P

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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    #41
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    smmember20 wrote: »
    So I don't get it, did you have a certificte before 2008 or not, was it that you applied and they turned you down, the only point I am making is that if you had a certificate before 2008 you can make application today under the current legislation and 95% you will be granted it as long as you fulfil the restricted firearms criteria the most important one being you had it before 2008.

    From you post it seems like you lost the Sig to the value of 3K?

    Yes.


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    #42
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Indeed, they are instead interpreted as gospel when it suits the S/CS, and a guideline otherwise. :P

    Case in point, the CS said the 1000 rounds for target shooting was - a guideline I can choose not to follow.
    Few minutes later, still the CS - the commissioners guidelines are what I go by, no exceptions. :rolleyes:

    Sometimes it is comic to hear them, but I really wish those interviews were recorded. :P

    The fact that we have a postcode lottery when it comes to firearms licencing means that the guidelines aren't taken as gospel. Some Gardai interpret it differently, and sometimes incorrectly.


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    #43
    jb88
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭jb88


    It seems when objective views on topics by some more experienced than others are not allowed they are pulled.

    No one learns anything, we are back to the same merry go round.

    Constructive discourse and knowledge based information seem to be very few and far between in these forums.


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    #44
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    The fact that we have a postcode lottery when it comes to firearms licencing means that the guidelines aren't taken as gospel. Some Gardai interpret it differently, and sometimes incorrectly.

    Indeed.
    I do wonder whether the licencing system will ever be centralised, like was talked about years ago.

    Not that that would necessarily make it better that is, but presumably more consistent at the very least. :rolleyes:

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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    #45
    jb88
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭jb88


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    The fact that we have a postcode lottery when it comes to firearms licencing means that the guidelines aren't taken as gospel. Some Gardai interpret it differently, and sometimes incorrectly.

    The case for firearms need to be presented as if you are attending court in my cases, have it written in an email and have lots of relevant information, the more information you send into AGS with as much detail as possible and know the laws and how to interpret them all this helps.

    State facts not interpretation or fiction, and reply back when questions are asked with comprehensive answers.


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    #46
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Indeed.
    I do wonder whether the licencing system will ever be centralised, like was talked about years ago.

    Not that that would necessarily make it better that is, but presumably more consistent at the very least. :rolleyes:

    It would be much better if it was centralised.

    Even as is, the current system could be improved through the use of technology.

    Renewals and non-first time applications should be done online. This would save the Gardai having to type what we have written into the computer and it would also be a record of the application having been made.

    It would also mean that it's much less likely for an application going missing in the post/behind the filing cabinet etc.


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    #47
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    jb88 wrote: »
    It seems when objective views on topics by some more experienced than others are not allowed they are pulled.
    Which posts were pulled?

    In the original thread I left a mod note directing people to this thread where the discussion can continue. As you continue to post in the original thread in target forum I have also moved this post into this thread.

    So read back and tell me which posts were removed.
    Constructive discourse and knowledge based information seem to be very few and far between in these forums.
    "Its rubbish".

    That is the sum of your "knowledge based information" and/or "constructive discourse".
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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    #48
    jb88
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭jb88


    Its swapping shells around CASS.
    Confusion abounds and no one is any the wiser.. I get it.


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    #49
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Any way you need to justify it to yourself is fine by me.

    I think everyone and their Mother has had enough of this by now, so I'll leave it at that too.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #50
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It would be much better if it was centralised.

    Even as is, the current system could be improved through the use of technology.

    Renewals and non-first time applications should be done online. This would save the Gardai having to type what we have written into the computer and it would also be a record of the application having been made.

    It would also mean that it's much less likely for an application going missing in the post/behind the filing cabinet etc.

    Yes, as with much else we can learn much from abroad. I believe in many European countries, Germany for instance, the police provide a background check and thats it. The application is processed by a centralised office, staffed by civilians and is all far more efficient. The trouble is here, the guards don't want to do licencing, but they don't want anyone else to do it either.


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    #51
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,023 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    Yes, as with much else we can learn much from abroad. I believe in many European countries, Germany for instance, the police provide a background check and thats it. The application is processed by a centralised office, staffed by civilians and is all far more efficient. The trouble is here, the guards don't want to do licencing, but they don't want anyone else to do it either.

    In some Federal states, they also do the movement/export certs as well.

    Thing is;if we got this by some miracle being done by a centralised authority,they would have to be 100% impartial to this, and not be an operation filled with "retired" senior ranking Gardai who are discussing this business over pints in the local, as is wont to happen around here.:rolleyes:
    Nor having it filled with some Jobsworth of civil servants who know nothing about guns apart from a Hollywood education is going to be helpful either.IOW we need to have input into this as well from the coalface. Chances of that of course are....

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #52
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,023 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    I no exceptions. :rolleyes:

    Sometimes it is comic to hear them, but I really wish those interviews were recorded. :P

    NOTHING stopping you from requesting such...As it is a formal interview and it is commonly accepted practise in the world of law and commerce to openly record business meetings, and you are doing it for the exact same reason AGS do it themselves down in the dungeon...Er ...interview rooms.
    So long as both /all parties consent, and if requested you provide a copy of the interview tape and /or transcript as well.

    It also keeps things civil and professional and people in mind their P's and Q's. So they cant try and badger you into a reaction,to say you are unsuitable to be licensed.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #53
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Don't mind tape recorders, i'd be turning up with a solicitor. The way i was treated more than once by the gits, its the tack i would take.


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    #54
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    NOTHING stopping you from requesting such...As it is a formal interview and it is commonly accepted practise in the world of law and commerce to openly record business meetings, and you are doing it for the exact same reason AGS do it themselves down in the dungeon...Er ...interview rooms.
    So long as both /all parties consent, and if requested you provide a copy of the interview tape and /or transcript as well.

    It also keeps things civil and professional and people in mind their P's and Q's. So they cant try and badger you into a reaction,to say you are unsuitable to be licensed.

    I know exactly how that would go.
    Suddenly I would not be interviewed, the application would be turned down with the nebulous "no good and sufficient reason" argument, and it'd be court.
    I'd been told as much last renewal. :mad:
    tudderone wrote: »
    Don't mind tape recorders, i'd be turning up with a solicitor. The way i was treated more than once by the gits, its the tack i would take.

    Strongly considered that after the last one...
    Not informing AGS beforehand, but just turning up with one.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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    #55
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,023 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Just looking at my renewal form here.Just ticking a box is not sufficient anymore. Big ol space there that needs filling in with their justification of refusal. Then of course you can also FOIA it.

    But if you have been treated like that, I would certainly pitch up with a legal eagle too. I'd also call their bluff on the court too,and go and file for a hearing if I was treated like that right after the interview.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #56
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Legal to do here or not ? You are not actually shooting while moving.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWrVU2DSJHU


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    #57
    BSA International
    Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭BSA International


    tudderone wrote: »
    Don't mind tape recorders, i'd be turning up with a solicitor. The way i was treated more than once by the gits, its the tack i would take.

    Been there myself.

    A buddy advised Super he was bringing a solicitor with him and Super refused to meet him. So he went alone. When buddy went in to the meeting there was the Super and a Sergeant on other side of table ......


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    #58
    BSA International
    Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭BSA International


    JB88, have a c/f pistol? Did you ever have one? Some have lost c/f pistols on strength of same announcement hanging over s/a rifles, I know of lads.

    Cass is right to advise people of possibility if losing them even if you don't think they will. When the c/f pistol ban was mooted there were many at the time saying much same as you are now. They were wrong.


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    #59
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    BSA International wrote: »
    Been there myself.

    A buddy advised Super he was bringing a solicitor with him and Super refused to meet him. So he went alone. When buddy went in to the meeting there was the Super and a Sergeant on other side of table ......

    Its a complete lack of professionalism on their behalf. They might not like licencing firearms, but its part of their duties. All they have to do is treat you with civility, and weigh up the merits of the application, and the applicant.

    Maybe its changed now, but the supers/chief's i met were all old duffers sitting it out for their pension. Part of the generation, who, like priests and bishops here, once they got the uniform on, thought they were the law.


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    #60
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    tudderone wrote: »
    Legal to do here or not ? You are not actually shooting while moving.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWrVU2DSJHU


    Cannot see the problem.
    Not vastly different from the PRS comps as far as movement goes.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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    #61
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 15,023 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Cannot see the problem.
    Not vastly different from the PRS comps as far as movement goes.

    Apart from needing a bunch of 10 round mags and needing to do mag changes as well.Can't see a problem with it.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



This discussion has been closed.
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