N11/N25 - Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour [route options published]

Silent Running · 25-01-2021 9:19am

Jayuu wrote: »

Just putting this here as I can't find another thread suitable. With the increase in freight traffic from Rosslare arising from Brexit and a number of new ferry crossings I wonder that there seems to be no plan on any improvements on the N25 between Wexford and New Ross to link this scheme with the New Ross bypass and then on past Waterford (as soon as the Glenmore link is complete).

I know the road is fairly decent for a WS2 but one would have thought that a potential bypass of Ballinaboola might be considered as it's the only village between Wexford and New Ross that the N25 goes through.

I also assume that this Oilgate/Rosslare road itself will be built to 2+2 standard now given how Rosslare may become more of a key port.

Barntown is every bit as tight and slow as Balinaboola. Otherwise the road is quite good with plenty of passing opportunities.

jd · 25-01-2021 10:26am

Silent Running wrote: »

Barntown is every bit as tight and slow as Balinaboola. Otherwise the road is quite good with plenty of passing opportunities.

It looks like Barntown may be by-passed as part of the scheme

Pete_Cavan · 25-01-2021 2:14pm

Jayuu wrote: »

I also assume that this Oilgate/Rosslare road itself will be built to 2+2 standard now given how Rosslare may become more of a key port.

No chance that it will be 2+2 all the way to Rosslare. AADT at Rosslare was less than 6k for 2019. Most likely we'll see new build north of Wexford, upgrade of Wexford bypass possibly to 2+2 and Existing Road Corridor "Management Option" south of Wexford.

KrisW1001 · 25-01-2021 3:09pm

2+2 would be useful from Rosslare only to deal with overtaking risks. Yes, even after the big increase due to Brexit, there's still not enough traffic to and from the port to justify this on capacity grounds, but a lot of the Rosslare traffic is HGVs, which does encourage car-drivers to do stupid things in an attempt to get ahead.

Sam Russell · 27-01-2021 3:31pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

2+2 would be useful from Rosslare only to deal with overtaking risks. Yes, even after the big increase due to Brexit, there's still not enough traffic to and from the port to justify this on capacity grounds, but a lot of the Rosslare traffic is HGVs, which does encourage car-drivers to do stupid things in an attempt to get ahead.

I think removing the roundabouts would be good idea. HGVs going round roundabouts is not a good idea.

jd · 27-01-2021 4:09pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think removing the roundabouts would be good idea. HGVs going round roundabouts is not a good idea.

Signalised junctions instead?

Sam Russell · 27-01-2021 7:06pm

jd wrote: »

Signalised junctions instead?

Maybe, but freeflow would be better. Bridges or underpasses would work.

marno21 · 27-01-2021 7:14pm

If I were to guess I would say M11 from Oilgate to the new N11/N25 junction. 2+2 new N25 for a few km west of here and 2+2 to Rosslare Harbour

Before I would’ve said SC from Wexford to Rosslare but between Brexit and future proofing and the Foynes link rejig from SC to 2+2 I think it’ll be DC all the way to the port

kneemos · 27-01-2021 7:19pm

Two more Rosslare routes announced.

https://wexfordtoday.com/2021/01/27/brittany-ferries-announce-new-rosslare-routes/

Pete_Cavan · 27-01-2021 8:15pm

kneemos wrote: »

Two more Rosslare routes announced.

https://wexfordtoday.com/2021/01/27/brittany-ferries-announce-new-rosslare-routes/

I assumed you meant for the road!

Vilnian · 27-01-2021 11:37pm

kneemos wrote: »

Two more Rosslare routes announced.

https://wexfordtoday.com/2021/01/27/brittany-ferries-announce-new-rosslare-routes/

Great news! Fingers crossed now that such things will amplify the the speed of the development for this road.

jd · 28-01-2021 12:11am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Maybe, but freeflow would be better. Bridges or underpasses would work.

Absolutely, but I was wondering should the roundabouts be amended/changed to TLs ahead of the road upgrade.

KrisW1001 · 28-01-2021 12:08pm

As long as the roundabouts are sufficiently big, they're not a problem for lorries. There's one small-ish roundabout just outside Rosslare itself that I've seen long vehicles struggling with, but the ones of the size of the junction with N25 (Blackhorse) are fine for any length of vehicle.

A 2+2 would use an even larger radius roundabout, so it shouldn't be an issue. Stop-go signals would be a bad idea, especially in Rosslare itself, as it would create queues of stationary HGVs in exactly the worst place to have diesel emissions.

Full grade separation is crazy overspending at the level of traffic we're talking about. Ferries take at most 500 vehicles. You'd need 20 sailings a day, all full, to meet the design capacity of a 2+2 road that used roundabouts. Rosslare doesn't handle container traffic, and it's possible that it won't, given that Cork and Waterford both have container facilities that can be used instead.

I told ya · 28-01-2021 1:11pm

I've posted about a year ago that the M11 should be extended to Rosslare Harbour as a priority as there was potential for a brexit bust up. The bust up has arrived and I feel it will only get worse when the 'grace period' expires in the summer. It's my understanding from reading various articles is that GB is not implementing the full checks yet. Sometime in the summer they have to implement full checks.

So checks at Holyhead/Fishguard and checks at Dover or wherever. An Irish truck could being checked four times on a return journey whereas no checks (or minimal) going Rosslare to EU and return.

Also, can't see the Irish trucks being let sail past and onto the ships with GB trucks queuing.

As a country we are heavily dependent on imports and exports, IMO it would be madness to use the landbridge to get to Europe.

Again, IMO the best course of action is to simply extend the M11. Build it once, build it right. Building DC, 2+2, roundabouts, upgrades, etc. whatever is simply false economy. The savings, if any, would be small change in terms of the value of trade, delays, etc.

loyatemu · 28-01-2021 1:19pm

I told ya wrote: »

I've posted about a year ago that the M11 should be extended to Rosslare Harbour as a priority as there was potential for a brexit bust up. The bust up has arrived and I feel it will only get worse when the 'grace period' expires in the summer. It's my understanding from reading various articles is that GB is not implementing the full checks yet. Sometime in the summer they have to implement full checks.

So checks at Holyhead/Fishguard and checks at Dover or wherever. An Irish truck could being checked four times on a return journey whereas no checks (or minimal) going Rosslare to EU and return.

Also, can't see the Irish trucks being let sail past and onto the ships with GB trucks queuing.

As a country we are heavily dependent on imports and exports, IMO it would be madness to use the landbridge to get to Europe.

Again, IMO the best course of action is to simply extend the M11. Build it once, build it right. Building DC, 2+2, roundabouts, upgrades, etc. whatever is simply false economy. The savings, if any, would be small change in terms of the value of trade, delays, etc.

the road out of Cherbourg is 2+2 and it's many times the size of Rosslare. 2+2 is more than sufficient, ships don't all arrive at the same time.

I told ya · 28-01-2021 1:39pm

loyatemu wrote: »

the road out of Cherbourg is 2+2 and it's many times the size of Rosslare. 2+2 is more than sufficient, ships don't all arrive at the same time.

It was 1994 that I last used Cherbourg so I can't offer any views.

But my point is build right, build once.

I don't want to go off topic but my wife's cousin was involved in the design of the M50 (private eng co) and I know a person who worked for the Dublin Corporation on the M50 (road eng side) and the stories they told me, independently, of the penny pinching that went on. The savings from changing Liffey Valley from GS to a roundabout junction was less that IR£250k. Granted it was late 1980's prices but total false economy given nearly 20 years of heartache for everyone and a €1bn+ upgrade, and it's still not, and will never be, fully free flowing at the major junctions. So please can we not talk about roundabouts and traffic lights and things that unnecessarily slow down traffic.

Pete_Cavan · 28-01-2021 2:39pm

I told ya wrote: »

But my point is build right, build once.

By this logic, we'd be building every N road in the country as motorway. It is entirely reasonable to build now to accommodate foreseeable needs, building to the maximum capacity just in case is a waste of scarce resources today. AADT at Rosslare was less than 6k for 2019, thats less than a third of the limit for 2+2 with GSJs, nevermind motorway.

I told ya · 28-01-2021 2:54pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

By this logic, we'd be building every N road in the country as motorway. It is entirely reasonable to build now to accommodate foreseeable needs, building to the maximum capacity just in case is a waste of scarce resources today. AADT at Rosslare was less than 6k for 2019, thats less than a third of the limit for 2+2 with GSJs, nevermind motorway.

I as referring specifically to extending the M11. No mention of upgrading any other N roads.

The importance of Rosslare Harbour to the national economy changed overnight. Although it was predictable.

It's simply my opinion that a proper road be built to RH.

Again off topic but I'm sure all sorts of figures were trotted out to justify the roundabout at the northern end of the JLT in Cork. Again, a dog's dinner from day one.

blindsider · 28-01-2021 3:14pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

By this logic, we'd be building every N road in the country as motorway. It is entirely reasonable to build now to accommodate foreseeable needs, building to the maximum capacity just in case is a waste of scarce resources today. AADT at Rosslare was less than 6k for 2019, thats less than a third of the limit for 2+2 with GSJs, nevermind motorway.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/rosslare-port-sees-freight-traffic-increase-by-500-in-first-half-of-january-1.4466401

I'm sure this was posted previously.

So, a 500% increase, 2 EXTRA routes, and more to come once the 'grace period' expires....

Whatever about Motorway, surely 2+2 makes sense from Rosslare to Oilgate.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much more motorway costs than 2+2 - just a ball park % would satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks.

Cookiemunster · 28-01-2021 3:20pm

I don't know the figure, but motorways have wider driving lanes, hard shoulders, grade separated junctions and higher design speeds. So land take for a motorway will be larger an junctions more expensive.

kneemos · 28-01-2021 3:41pm

They could nearly widen the existing road by a couple of metres if all they want is duel carriageway.

KrisW1001 · 28-01-2021 3:47pm

The largest Ro-Ro (Roll on, Roll off) ferry in service in Ireland (and one of the largest in the world for that matter) has a capacity of 8,000 lane-metres: that's about 500 40-foot articulated lorries with no cars, or 1,500 passenger cars with no lorries.

Give it a 50/50 mix of traffic, and you're looking at 1200 vehicles per ferry, if completely full. If a boat like that landed at Rosslare every 2 hours, took in 1200 vehicles and set down 1200 vehicles, that would be 14,400 vehicles a day.

14,400 is well within the capacity of a 2+2 road (AADT <22,000). Actually, it's only a little above the capacity of a single-carriageway road (AADT <13,500).

But let's catch ourselves on for a moment: there is nothing like that demand for road freight into Rosslare. Even if every single ferry using the land-bridge to Dublin Port shifted to using Rosslare instead, and every one was the biggest size afloat and fully laden, we're only talking about 6~7,000 vehicles a day.

There is zero need for a motorway for that amount of traffic (Motorway/Type 1 DC is only recommended for AADT of over 25,000). Even a 2+2 only makes the cut on the grounds of safety - not capacity.

blindsider wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much more motorway costs than 2+2 - just a ball park % would satisfy my curiosity.
Thanks.

The figure I heard was 2+2 is 60~75% of the cost of a Motorway (around €7m per km). It's not just savings on land-take: there are less stringent requirements on gradients and sight-lines that make construction cheaper as there's less need for cuttings or embankments or very-large radius curves.

I told ya · 28-01-2021 3:56pm

I fully accept that motorways are more expensive to build with lane widths, hard shoulders, junctions and of course ongoing maintenance.

We're only talking about 30/35 km here. Not a big distance by any stretch.

Here's a saving, how many junctions would be required? One for Wexford Town/N25 and one for Wexford Town south. Look at the M6, two junctions for Moate and two for Ballinasloe come to mind without looking at the map. I will accept that that's over spected. So there has to be some costs that can be avoided before it even reaches the drawing board.

Could the situation arise that where EU freight to/from NI goes through RH rather than GB to avoid EU/third country checks? Time will tell but I would suspect that NI businesses would use RH if they did their sums and felt it was the more efficient route. More pressure on the road network.

From reading the Brexit threads on Boards, a lot of posters are of the view that the UK will not be coming back to the EU in any meaningful way for a generation, if at all.

We just need to get on with it and do what's best for us.

Cookiemunster · 28-01-2021 4:15pm

We don't need to build a motorway. A 2+2 would be more than enough and very well future proofed. You're beginning to sound like that poster who wanted 8 lane motorways to everywhere because America had them.

And a word of advice. The politics forum is not the doyen of politics. Any number of things like the UK rejoining the customs unions or the single market or even joining something like EFTA could be done without rejoining the EU and would mitigate against quite a lot of the disruption. Just look at Switzerland, Norway and even Turkey.

I told ya · 28-01-2021 4:26pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

By this logic, we'd be building every N road in the country as motorway. It is entirely reasonable to build now to accommodate foreseeable needs, building to the maximum capacity just in case is a waste of scarce resources today. AADT at Rosslare was less than 6k for 2019, thats less than a third of the limit for 2+2 with GSJs, nevermind motorway.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

We don't need to build a motorway. A 2+2 would be more than enough and very well future proofed. You're beginning to sound like that poster who wanted 8 lane motorways to everywhere because America had them.

And a word of advice. The politics forum is not the doyen of politics. Any number of things like the UK rejoining the customs unions or the single market or even joining something like EFTA could be done without rejoining the EU and would mitigate against quite a lot of the disruption. Just look at Switzerland, Norway and even Turkey.

LOl, I'm gone from a 30 odd k stretch of two lane motorway to every N road in the country to 8 lane motorways. It's all opinions anyway, but thanks for the laugh.

And thanks for the advice.:pac:

Sam Russell · 28-01-2021 5:01pm

Mod: Can we stick with the N11/M11/N25 for Oilgate to Rosslare Europort/Harbour.

Politics for the politics forum. Eight carriageway motorways for the USA forum (if there is one).

Thank you.

marno21 · 10-02-2021 8:55pm

marno21 wrote: »

Tender out for LIDAR surveys for the project

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/177566/1/0

Contract awarded.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/177566/0/1?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

vicwatson · 13-02-2021 5:00pm

Any update on a date for the release of the route selection?

vicwatson · 09-03-2021 1:31am

By all accounts the preferred route decision has been pushed out to May/June apparently

marno21 · 09-03-2021 1:37am

vicwatson wrote: »

By all accounts the preferred route decision has been pushed out to May/June apparently

https://oilgate2rosslareharbour.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/N11_N25-Oilgate-to-Rosslare-Harbour-_Option-Selection-Newsletter_March-2021.pdf

Detailed information on that.

N11/N25 - Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour [route options published]

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