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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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    #5762
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    senordingdong wrote: »
    I'm dying to know how many lives have been saved by erecting those pathetic saloon doors to the alcohol Isles.
    We won't know that for a while. Apparently the genius behind them is that little Timmy will see the doors, and have no idea what's behind them.
    He will go through life until he is 18 before he is aware he can enter the never never, but by that stage, the message will have got through loud and clear. Sectioned off area = BAD.
    He will never enter, nor ever want to drink.
    Job done.


    To be honest, I have no real problem with them, it just seems that the idea behind them is daft. MUP however, being introduced into a country with some of the most expensive alcohol prices in Europe, to curb drinking, is stupid. And it's illegal.


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    #5763
    senordingdong
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭senordingdong


    Suckit wrote: »

    To be honest, I have no real problem with them, it just seems that the idea behind them is daft. MUP however, being introduced into a country with some of the most expensive alcohol prices in Europe, to curb drinking, is stupid. And it's illegal.

    I agree, they are as stupid as the day is long.


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    #5764
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,594 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Suckit wrote: »
    We won't know that for a while. Apparently the genius behind them is that lit
    To be honest, I have no real problem with them, it just seems that the idea behind them is daft. MUP however, being introduced into a country with some of the most expensive alcohol prices in Europe, to curb drinking, is stupid. And it's illegal.

    How is it illegal?


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    #5765
    FileNotFound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭FileNotFound


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    How is it illegal?

    Not sure it's illegal but when scotland did it the EU courts did acknowledge it did not align with free market concept (basically price fixing) but at the same time they didn't want to be involved and left it to the scottish courts to give final say.

    Doesn't matter now - it's coming


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    #5766
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Minimum alcohol pricing has been coming for a long time.

    Given its popularity, I doubt any politician wants to be seen to be too closely aligned with it.


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    #5767
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,558 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    How is it illegal?

    Was there not some EU restriction that MUP is illegal if the same effect can be delivered by taxation instead? Surely increasing excise would have been the more appropriate option?


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    #5768
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Padraig Mor wrote:
    Was there not some EU restriction that MUP is illegal if the same effect can be delivered by taxation instead? Surely increasing excise would have been the more appropriate option?

    The problem with excise is that it impacts the pubs as well


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    #5769
    the beer revolu
    Registered Users Posts: 16,962 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Was there not some EU restriction that MUP is illegal if the same effect can be delivered by taxation instead? Surely increasing excise would have been the more appropriate option?

    Let's be honest.
    If it was a duty increase which would increase the price of every single alcoholic purchase people , despite what they say, would be even more incensed than they are about the mup.

    I am against the mup but I'd be even more against a duty increase.


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    #5770
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    How is it illegal?
    I think when Scotland contested it, the EU saw no point in continuing it and told them to deal with it locally, as Brexit was going to be happening soon enough and any decision that they may have made would have been irrelevant by then.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/heard-the-one-about-eu-law-and-irish-minimum-alcohol-prices-1.2522678
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30712743.html
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/23/minimum-alcohol-price-in-scotland-could-breach-eu-law-court-rules
    https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2015/12/eu-court-rules-that-mup-breaches-trade-laws/


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    #5771
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,297 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    senordingdong wrote: »
    I'm dying to know how many lives have been saved by erecting those pathetic saloon doors to the alcohol Isles.

    Precisely....Somebody who wants alcohol will get it...doors or any other deterrent won’t dissuade..

    Hiking the price means say an alcoholic or regular drinker, spends 150 euros a week on alcohol which is give or take 550 a month on average say.

    Is now spending almost say 700 euros a month..

    The extra money isn’t a deterrent, because alcoholism is a disease and habitual regular drinkers have a psychological requirement for it, his / her body and mind are craving this chemical..this experience, this feeling..

    So the extra money is money that they don’t spend or may not spend of family, health, wellbeing......


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    #5772
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,594 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Suckit wrote: »
    I think when Scotland contested it, the EU saw no point in continuing it and told them to deal with it locally, as Brexit was going to be happening soon enough and any decision that they may have made would have been irrelevant by then.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/heard-the-one-about-eu-law-and-irish-minimum-alcohol-prices-1.2522678
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30712743.html
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/23/minimum-alcohol-price-in-scotland-could-breach-eu-law-court-rules
    https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2015/12/eu-court-rules-that-mup-breaches-trade-laws/

    Right, so it isn't illegal then.


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    #5773
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Right, so it isn't illegal then.


    Well it is, as there are alternatives, and it is only considered to not be illegal if there aren't any that are as or more effective.
    Also, MUP in itself is deemed illegal when it is pricing a product out of range of the less well off section of society, or any section.
    It would be up to the EU to decide conclusively, but as it stands, it is believed to be illegal.


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    #5774
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,594 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Suckit wrote: »
    Well it is, as there are alternatives, and it is only considered to not be illegal if there aren't any that are as or more effective.
    Also, MUP in itself is deemed illegal when it is pricing a product out of range of the less well off section of society, or any section.
    It would be up to the EU to decide conclusively, but as it stands, it is believed to be illegal.

    Believed to be illegal? It either is or it isn't. The EU did not rule that it was illegal. It does violate competition rules but the 'greater good' is an accepted norm and as such it is able to circumvent the rules. Thus it has not been found to be illegal.

    It is currently in operation in Scotland, so it cannot be illegal under EU law.


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    #5775
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Believed to be illegal? It either is or it isn't. The EU did not rule that it was illegal. It does violate competition rules but the 'greater good' is an accepted norm and as such it is able to circumvent the rules. Thus it has not been found to be illegal.

    It is currently in operation in Scotland, so it cannot be illegal under EU law.
    It is not as black and white as you like to think, if it was, it wouldn't have had to go through the EU courts to be told to go to Scottish courts for them to decide.
    "The case will now continue to the Scottish courts, and we look forward to a hearing in the new year to determine the outcome in this case."


    David Frost, SWA chief executive, said: "The SWA always said European Union law issues were central to this case, and so it has proved. This settles EU law issues once and for all.


    "The court has confirmed that minimum unit pricing is a restriction on trade, and that it is illegal to choose MUP [minimum unit pricing] where there are less restrictive ways of achieving the same end.


    "The Scottish courts will now reflect on the implications of the ruling and all the evidence, before issuing a final judgement."



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    #5776
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,594 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Suckit wrote: »
    It is not as black and white as you like to think, if it was, it wouldn't have had to go through the EU courts to be told to go to Scottish courts for them to decide.

    I'm not saying it is. But something is not illegal until it is. It hasn't been deemed to be illegal, and as such it isn't.

    That may change in the future, but as of now it is has been found to be illegal.


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    #5777
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,883 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I think we can safely discount the Scottish example following Brexit.

    MUP may well be illegal but that won't be decided until it is tested in court.

    It is clear that it is not in the interests of either the on premises or off sales drinks trade to take a case.

    That leaves it up to a consumer challenge which appears very unlikely.


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    #5778
    Mr. teddywinkles
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117490371#Comment_117490371

    Speaking of scotland. Drug related deaths are up drastically the last 2 years. Any correlation there at all.



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    #5779
    macraignil
    Registered Users Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭macraignil


    I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683564#Comment_117683564

    Just saw the figures on the BBC news there with 1339 deaths (a new record) linked to drugs for 2020 in Scotland and this is the place that advocates of minimum alcolol unit pricing in Ireland are saying is an example we should be following. Just goes to show how much thought these so called advocates for public health have put into a policy that is so prejudiced against people on lower incomes. Minimum alcohol pricing will have no effect on people with good incomes and force those on low incomes to try other substances or cocktails of chemicals to get their fix. It's a disgrace that politicians on incomes such that this legislation has no effect on them can bring in such discrimination against those on low incomes. I have zero confidence a higher price for the cheapest alcohol will have any effect on alcoholics other than leaving them with less money to spend on other things they need to live. I could see some I know more likely to go without food at times rather than having a few cheap cans and a meal as they might have done if this legislation was not introduced.



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    #5780
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,673 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117683564#Comment_117683564
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/30/drugs-deaths-in-scotland-soar-to-record-level

    Oops.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #5781
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Young people will turn to drugs over alcohol. Alcohol Action Ireland and the likes think they'll be doing Saturday Fun Runs and attending mental health workshops.

    You'd have to wonder what's next for Alcohol Action Ireland. Once they get this through, they'll need a new issue to keep them going. They'll have to justify that government/lotto money and the 250k spent on wages for 3 employees.



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    #5782
    Wilmol
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Wilmol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117731566#Comment_117731566

    Reduce alcohol sale hours, this has been done in other countries. Something along the lines of no sale on Sundays and reduced hours such as 12PM to 8PM



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    #5783
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 82,341 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740567#Comment_117740567

    Or just sell it between 7pm and 8pm on the first Monday of each month and watch sales of illegal drugs rocket while no drink can be bought.



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    #5784
    Wilmol
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Wilmol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740600#Comment_117740600

    Yes, yes, but we're saving lives from alcohol and we need to do something! Just shows that the world is unfair when these individuals get paid 6 digit salaries.



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    #5785
    ShamNNspace
    Registered Users Posts: 4,715 ✭✭✭ShamNNspace


    More bull https://www.thejournal.ie/retailers-move-to-selling-smaller-units-of-alcohol-ahead-of-minimum-pricing-charity-claims-5524149-Aug2021/



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    #5786
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    Eunan McKinney on RTE going on about how cheap it is to drink here..


    Always love how RTE never ask him about us being amongst the most expensive in Europe for alcohol



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    #5787
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    This ridiculous survey what put out by these AAI zealots. I don't know why they are given so much air time.



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    #5788
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    Exactly

    The same basket of drink would be significantly cheaper in the vast majority of EU countries not to mind what it will be like after January with MUP

    RTE couldn't point that out though

    Wouldn't be on message

    Eunan McKinney was even going on about ICU beds being taken up with alcohol issues that are needed more than ever with Covid



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    #5789
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,594 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766614#Comment_117766614

    Well, on the last point he has a point. The amount of time, money and effort that is required to be spent by the state is massive in relation to alcohol and its effects. Be it crime, anti-social behaviour, domestic abuse, domestic issues, drink driving, injuries etc.

    I don't for a second believe that MUP is the answer to any of that, would much prefer a 'levy' be placed on each unit such that regardless of price, there is a collection for the overall socital cost of alcohol. Of course, we actually already have that given we have excise duties which just disappear into the great tax bucket, but it would make far more sense to create a standalone levy and that targeted and properly funded projects are set up to help those that suffer from alcohol addiction or it effects.



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    #5790
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    My parents were in England recently

    They brought me a few craft beers back

    €1.28 for a 5% lager when converted back to €

    Going to be €1.97 minimum here in January

    53.91% increase for the same strength beer



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    #5791
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766655#Comment_117766655

    True overall but yes MUP won't have any effect on those areas

    I wouldn't be surprised to see crime increase to pay for the extra money needed under MUP

    The strange thing with MUP is that the increase will mainly go to the retailers not the exchequer

    "it would make far more sense to create a standalone levy and that targeted and properly funded projects are set up to help those that suffer from alcohol addiction or it effects."

    That's a proper health argument

    As opposed to the FG rationale for supporting the pubs that is dressed up as health issue for MUP



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