M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have to say, watching the progression of the first bypass through the processes and now the ring road that its truly astounding to see how much attitudes have changed in relation to this road, sustainable travel in Galway, climate change and alternative ways of achieving similar results.

Originally I was an ardent supporter of the original bypass and initially the ring road too (you'll find lots of posts on here from me supporting it) but as I educated myself more on planning, infrastructure, sustainable travel, active travel, etc I came to realise that this ring road could be a 6 lane both-ways motorway and would still not solve Galway's traffic problems.

None so zealous as the converted

DrSerious3 wrote: »

None so zealous as the converted

The fervour and conviction reminds of the born-again Christians I met years ago in the States. Same energy, except they're preaching the green Gospel to us heathens.

Deleted User wrote: »

So the claim goes, for the last few decades and yet here we are. The reason this has not been done is because there are limitations on what roadblocks can be put in place to stop objections due to the Aarhus Convention.

Any attempt to thwart this will lose in the courts

We ratified it in 2012, and it's only been since then that environmental objections have started to go bananas. If it becomes a serious obstacle to development in this country I would expect a sensible government to repeal the most onerous and over-reaching parts, keeping things out of the courts. We'll give it a while for now though and see whether people are reasonable.

Deleted User wrote: »

Asked and answered

And always immediately followed by another statement considering the bypass in isolation, pretending no PT will be provided. It's tiresome.

Deleted User wrote: »

Cost? A lot less than the ring road

As for the rest, evidence from all over the world where similar measures have been carried out e.g. Amsterdam, Paris, London etc

Actual figures would be very helpful. Given the amount of inanity going on in this thread over the price tag of the bypass, it seems a bit much to present "unlimited deluxe PT+++" as an alternative without providing some sort of objective cost estimate. If you can't, it would suggest you haven't really considered your plan in any significant detail.

Separately, I've been to Amsterdam, Paris, and London, and they're as crowded and slow-moving as any city I've ever been in. You either sit stuck in traffic or you sit jammed in public transport. Is that your vision for Galway?

I'm not necessarily on board with the environmental concerns around the proposed bypass. My main concern is value for money.

Is it a good idea to spend a billion euro on a bypass to nowhere for what is essentially a medium sized town? Is there really a pressing need to connect rural, sparsely populated West/North Co. Galway to the Motorway network? Is it the best use of public monies to facilitate people who choose to live in rural one-offs to commute long distances into the Galway urban area?

To an impartial observer, the answers to the above questions are all clear and obvious no's. There are multiple road and PT projects nationally where a billion euro could be better spent including, it seems, within the Galway urban area itself (bus connects/gluas).

Perhaps one way to address the cost concerns is to put a tolling system in place on the bypass - just like there is in Dublin, Waterford and the Limerick tunnel. If Galway locals really want it, then they can pay for it, rather than putting taxpayers (primarily in the east of the country) on the hook to pay for it. It's in the east where that billion euro of public money would achieve far better value for money if spent on PT projects.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Good question. The healthcare service clearly doesn't have enough capacity, and the more healthcare services we provide, the more people seem to be using them. No matter how many operating rooms we build, no matter how big the A&Es are, no matter how many beds we open, there never seems to be enough. Patient numbers keep rising to take account of expansions in service. If this isn't induced demand, how does it meaningfully differ?

So, do we leave people languishing in waiting rooms and on waiting lists? Or do we invest in expanding infrastructure along with more public health measures? What are your thoughts on this?

People don't get sick because hospitals are built but they do buy and use cars in response to new roads.

Anyway, this is your conjecture so you have to prove it exists and not just ask people to prove it's doesn't. Throw up some links that discuss induced demand in healthcare and then there might be grounds for a discussion.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Almost certainly. Most planning applications cost a few million - peanuts in the overall picture, if we're casually talking about spending several hundred million on light rail for Galway. Same with your other objections about scarcity of resources. Of course we are dealing with scarce resources. That's why we're even talking about this.

You're acknowledging that there's limitations in resources but you're still just talking about "do it all" and haven't given any kind of figures or explanation on how you'd get around bottleneck issues.

Covidhaveago wrote: »

I'm not necessarily on board with the environmental concerns around the proposed bypass. My main concern is value for money.

Is it a good idea to spend a billion euro on a bypass to nowhere for what is essentially a medium sized town? Is there really a pressing need to connect rural, sparsely populated West/North Co. Galway to the Motorway network? Is it the best use of public monies to facilitate people who choose to live in rural one-offs to commute long distances into the Galway urban area?

To an impartial observer, the answers to the above questions are all clear and obvious no's. There are multiple road and PT projects nationally where a billion euro could be better spent including, it seems, within the Galway urban area itself (bus connects/gluas).

Perhaps one way to address the cost concerns is to put a tolling system in place on the bypass - just like there is in Dublin, Waterford and the Limerick tunnel. If Galway locals really want it, then they can pay for it, rather than putting taxpayers (primarily in the east of the country) on the hook to pay for it. It's in the east where that billion euro of public money would achieve far better value for money if spent on PT projects.

I'm on a similar page to yourself. I'd be against the environmental impact on a personal level but if I thought it would fix traffic issues then I'd accept it. But nothing I've seen points towards it helping.

I also think the toll is a good idea. It would be interesting to see how many people are still in favor of it if there was going to be a toll

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is - put bus lanes down Bothar na Dtreabh along with cycle lanes, and put free flow junctions at the various junctions that are pinch points. From Terryland, put a new bridge across the Corrib to Newcastle and improve the Western Distributor Road, so traffic can actually flow along it.

so put two bridges beside each other? what would that serve? still traffic jams all the way up to the QB and it's new sibling.
everyone from barna west needs to drive as far as the amazing PnR, get out of their cars, hop into a bus, and carry on their journeys. Do you think that will happen? and what if their journey requires them to go further than the other end of the PnR? or they are tourists/business deliveries etc?
Galway city needs to be bypassed, so that those who DO NOT WANT TO GO INTO THE CITY can get around it. If this bypass had no exits during it's course, but allowed people to get on in the west, and get off in the east (and vice versa), I would be happy.
ps when i lived in Galway city, i cycled every day. every single day, every place. Galway is a joke for cycling, dangerous, f all proper cycle lanes, crazy (not as crazy as dublin) drivers (and some stupid cyclists I might add). i cannot see where cycle lanes will fit in the city centre along with bus lanes. My favourite cycle lane in the country is the quays in dublin, some craic sharing them with Dublin bus.

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

It seems that many here hate cars. But of those who are against the bypass, can I ask you to tell us if you own a car or not?
What difference does this make I hear you ask?
No difference, but I would like to know if you put your money where your mouth is and as you hate cars so much, have decided not to own one or use one.
Full disclosure, I have a car and 6 bikes.

Don't own one. Got rid of it because it was more hassle than it was worth. I am lucky enough to be on a couple of peoples insurance so can probably use one any time I need to. Don't generally need it but every now and then it would be hard to do without. GoCar is always an option too.



But I don't hate cars. Thinking anyone that disagrees with the ring road is anti-car is a massive, massive misunderstanding of the issues.

Cars have revolutionised travel and mobility, but they're incredibly inefficient at moving large volumes of people around; particularly for things like work where you have thousands of people coming from roughly the same area and going to roughly the same area at the same times, every day. I'm against the continuous prioritisation of private car usage over all other forms of transport. It should go walking->PT->cycling and similar->private cars. I'd personally chose cycling as my main means of commuting. It's quick, efficient, fun and free exercise/good for the head. But I appreciate it's not for everyone and PT should be prioritised ahead of it. Walking is on top since that's what we are born to do, all age groups do it and it's where we're most vulnerable. I'm also including people with mobility issues in this group and all infrastructure should be designed with them in mind. Private cars are at the bottom since they're so inefficient and clog up the transport infrastructure.



TLDR: I don't hate cars. I hate waste and ineffective planning.

Apologies for equating being anti ring road/ineffective planning with hating cars, that was a silly jump.
I would love to not need a car, but unfortunately due to where I live, I need one.
If that changes, I would gladly get rid and just cycle everywhere, including bringing kids on bikes to school/creche etc (all weather).
ps the road out west is not exactly safe for bicycles as I am sure many on this thread are well aware.

timmyntc wrote: »

I have a car, drive to work outside the city (buses arent frequent enough) but I recognise that space in city roads is at a premium, and that cars are very inefficient use of space.

Even if you build more roads, cars will quickly swallow all that extra capacity and you will be at worse gridlock than before. You need density on the roads, buses/trams/trains etc.

The ring road* will just take some commuter traffic off QCB and onto ring road, there will still be congestion at all junctions and especially turning off to Ballybrit/Parkmore. It simply isn't the silver bullet people think it is, and for €1 billion is not value for money.

*Its officially designated as Galway City Ring Road, not a bypass.

Question, would you use the Galway City Ring Road if it was built, i.e. is it on your route to work?

Would proposed improvements to PT in Galway city improve your commute? Would you use an improved PT system for getting to work?

The city is strangled by traffic and poor planning, the only way to grow is density. Density in developments (apartments etc) and density in transport (buses/trains for commuters). Another big road straddling the city boundary is not density, or good planning.

The evidence on the ground suggests that people do not want to live in these "high density dwellings". Evidence, drive up any side road or boreen in Co. Galway. Galway’s development is proof of the law of unintended consequences, the higher the density of new housing developments the less dense the county becomes overall, as people opt for one off developments in the county. In the 90's Salthill Knockcarra were a football powerhouse, then it moved to Corrofin. Look at the up and coming U10 and U12 football teams if you want to know where the housing development happened in the last 10 years. It’s not in the city.

A high density core for students and people who want apartment living, a medium density layer with lower density suburbs, may encourage people to stay close to the city.
Otherwise it will be just more one off development east of the city. Lots of houses will be concentrated in rural areas within 5 mile of junctions on m6,m17,m18. Corrofin/Turloughmore, Athenry, Ardrahan, and a couple of miles around Tuam and Gort.

spacetweek wrote: »

You know there's such a thing as a happy medium, right? I own a car but I don't like excessive car use.
Galway has car usage levels way above everywhere else in Ireland according to international observers and indeed above many other parts of the world too. The city effectively has no public transport since bus lanes are so rare and frequency so low. Rainy cities in Scandinavia and the Netherlands have high levels of cycling (and great infrastructure). Let's overhaul Galway transport.

Other cities in Scandinavia and Netherlands are much more densely built, with city centre apartment living rather than urban sprawl like Galway, which makes public transport viable. They also planned ahead for public transport 50 or 100 years ago. Galway didn't.


I am sick and tired of certain Irish people pretending our cities are built like on the continent. They're not. They're built more like LA. Cannot turn back the clock. We should accept Irish cities are largely car dependent, and therefore make them more car friendly, not less. If you want to do your virtue signalling on the environment then get electric car.