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School patronage

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    #5612
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Flourish sounds like an excellent programme. If I was a parent i would steery clear of any so called Catholic school who didnt teach it out of ideology.

    I have not looked at a lot of the content. What is excellent about it? Tell us about some of the content and what you think makes it "excellent". That is rather high praise compared to "Fit for purpose" for example. It Excels? How exactly?

    Some of the content I have looked at does not seem all that excellent to me. At least not when viewed under the light of being an education program about sex and sexual relationships. If I were viewing it as a religious program to teach the idea that their god is an integral part of sex and relationships.... then sure it certainly seems fit for THAT purpose.

    For example the "class by class" document which summarises the entire program breaks the agendas of the entire thing down into 32 bullet points. If memory serves 29 of that 32 mention god in some way.

    In terms of sexual and relationship content however I am not so confident. For example it mentions only opposite sex couples raising children and that they should be committed to staying together for the good of the child.

    Firstly that does not represent other forms of parenting such as same sex parenting or single parents or.... to ensure not to forget one of our boards posters..... situations where there is three or more people in a relationship and having/raising kids. Nor does it represent that fact that no one of those relationship configurations is in any way the "ideal" in terms of the well being and success of children raised within them.

    Secondly it does not acknowledge the fact that staying together is NOT always best for the child. And if relationships break down or go awry sometimes the parents splitting up, and even entering new relationships, is what is best for the kids involved in the long run.

    I saw it also mention in the content that "as part of the marriage vows" a couple is expected to have children. That is also not representative. Marriage represents the union of that relationship and nothing more. Procreation is OPTIONAL within that relationship and people can get married without it. Conversely marriage is OPTIONAL for procreation and no one is required to get married in order to have children.

    Finally by doing the usual thing we have seen before of having an "integrated curriculum" where religion, religious indoctrination, and religious dogma is permeated throughout a particular area of education..... it curtails the right and the ability to "opt out" of religious instruction by almost holding sex education to ransom. If you opt out of religious instruction due to conscience..... will the child then get their constitutional right to a sexual education in lieu of this? Or is it now a case of "opt out of one, opt out of the other"?

    As I said I have only quickly and cursorily looked over the content so I am not sure how any (if any) of the above concerns are addressed here. But it would be interesting to know. As since the course is not just passable but "excellent" am I to assume such concerns were addressed?


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    #5613
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    I saw it also mention in the content that "as part of the marriage vows" a couple is expected to have children.

    Worth pointing out that only a minority of marriages now taking place in Ireland take place in any kind of church at all, never mind a catholic one. So the above-mentioned guff is entirely irrelevant to the majority of married couples forming now, never mind unmarried.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5614
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Flourish sounds like an excellent programme. If I was a parent i would steery clear of any so called Catholic school who didnt teach it out of ideology.

    Personally, as a parent, I'd steer clear of any so-called Catholic school regardless. I imagine Flourish was also largely written by people who aren't parents either. It would seem more concerned with protecting aspects of a religious ethos that many find morally repugnant rather than looking after the best interests of children and their parents.


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    #5615
    Iscreamkone
    Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    The state should refuse to pay the portion of teacher’s salaries that they get for teaching religion.
    Let the churches cough up for the few hours a week that is spent indoctrinating children.
    That’d soften their cough.


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    #5616
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Iscreamkone wrote: »
    The state should refuse to pay the portion of teacher’s salaries that they get for teaching religion.
    Let the churches cough up for the few hours a week that is spent indoctrinating children.
    That’d soften their cough.

    This is impossible due to the integrated curriculum. Religion is incorporated into every single subject in religious schools.


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    #5617
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Traditionally teachers were not paid for the religious bit (which when National Schools were first established was originally supposed to be a time-specific, and optional, part of the school day.)

    I'm not sure if that is the case now or not but really does it matter? They are expected by the BOM to teach for X hours a week (including religious instruction) and the Dept of Education pays them Y. If (somehow) the BOM decided they were OK with a particular teacher not doing religious instruction, the Dept of Education would still pay them the same salary.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5618
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    smacl wrote: »
    I imagine Flourish was also largely written by people who aren't parents either.
    Indeed - can't see why anybody would bother with a book for children likely written by childless celibates working for an organization with the RCC's lamentable record in childcare.


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    #5619
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,268 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    The religoius barrier is thankfully removed from so called Catholic schools.

    Next step is phasing out of religious stuff like communions etc which are a waste of time.


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    #5620
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    lazygal wrote: »
    This is impossible due to the integrated curriculum. Religion is incorporated into every single subject in religious schools.

    I don't know what that means.

    How is it integrated into a subject like maths for example.


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    #5621
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    I don't know what that means.

    How is it integrated into a subject like maths for example.

    The primary curriculum works like a spiral. Everything is integrated. So a lesson on maths could involve measuring the space in a church, counting tht pews, estimating how many people can sit on each pew.


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    #5622
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    lazygal wrote: »
    The primary curriculum works like a spiral. Everything is integrated. So a lesson on maths could involve measuring the space in a church, counting tht pews, estimating how many people can sit on each pew.

    Any actual examples from a school book, or worksheet. I assume they are all standard school books


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    #5623
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    Any actual examples from a school book, or worksheet. I assume they are all standard school books

    Every school chooses its own textbooks and worksheets. Mine don't attend a religious controlled school but even their textbooks have religious references. St Brigit is dealt with as history, for example.


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    #5624
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    lazygal wrote: »
    Every school chooses its own textbooks and worksheets. Mine don't attend a religious controlled school but even their textbooks have religious references. St Brigit is dealt with as history, for example.

    I was looking for a specific example based on first hand experience of religion being inserted into unrelated subjects like maths. Then I could look up the book etc.


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    #5625
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    I was looking for a specific example based on first hand experience of religion being inserted into unrelated subjects like maths. Then I could look up the book etc.

    You won't find it in regular text books. Every now and again it crops up in training days (not run by the department). Last time it happened in our school (secondary) it was about 12 years ago and we all had to do a course on teaching through the ethos or somesuch. Every subject had to come up with a way to incorporate the faith.


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    #5626
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I got the impression from this thread that's it's systemic. But it's doesn't really seem to be.

    I'm just constantly surprised at how much involvement with schools with a heavy faith ethos and involvement people in this thread have.


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    #5627
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    I got the impression from this thread that's it's systemic. But it's doesn't really seem to be.

    I'm just constantly surprised at how much involvement with schools with a heavy faith ethos and involvement people in this thread have.

    It varies from school to school depending on the Principle and the board of management. It can also change with the change in Principle.

    Why are you surprised? Over 90% of the publicly funded National Schools in this country are controlled by the Catholic church - what are people's alternatives?
    Genuine ones - not "move" or "find another school" .

    Let me give you an example of how endemic RRC control over our education system is in the 21st century in the Irish republic.

    In Cork in 2011 there was a school established specifically for children aged 4-12, in the Southern HSE region, who are either on the Autism Spectrum or have intellectual disabilities.

    In 2015 a brand new campus was built - all funded by taxpayers.
    The RCC did not contribute one cent.
    They did not own the land the school was built on.

    Yet look it up on google maps and it's Cara Junior Catholic School.

    It does say it caters for all religions and none.
    What the actual does the ethos of the Roman Catholic Church have to do with teaching children with very special needs?

    How do they 'cater' - are some children removed from their safe bubble when religion is being taught?
    How is that explained to children with limited capacity to understand complex abstracts like "religion/no religion"?

    It is adding an unnecessary 'ethos' which is unneeded and potentially distressing for the children attending the school.

    There was absolutely no need for a new school, 100% funded by the Irish State to be placed under the patronage of the Roman Catholic Church.


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    #5628
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    I was looking for a specific example based on first hand experience of religion being inserted into unrelated subjects like maths. Then I could look up the book etc.

    Yeah right, you know that maths is the hardest subject for the god botherers to subvert :)

    God Maths:

    0 = infinity

    because god came from nowhere and wasn't created, yet is omnipresent and omnipotent :p


    oh and 1 = 3 :pac:

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5629
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Treppen wrote: »
    You won't find it in regular text books. Every now and again it crops up in training days (not run by the department). Last time it happened in our school (secondary) it was about 12 years ago and we all had to do a course on teaching through the ethos or somesuch. Every subject had to come up with a way to incorporate the faith.

    By secondary most kids have seen through the big lie

    Primary school is the bone of contention. A shade under 90% of primary schools remain under RCC control, even if one accepts the census figure of 78% catholic that is way off (and of course many of that 78% are no longer parents of children of school-going age)

    The most relevant stat, according to me :) , is that fewer than half of marriages in Ireland now take place in any church at all (never mind an RCC one) and it's hard to imagine that couples who actively choose a non-catholic marriage would desire a catholic education for their kids.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5630
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Yeah right, you know that maths is the hardest subject for the god botherers to subvert :)

    God Maths:

    0 = infinity

    because god came from nowhere and wasn't created, yet is omnipresent and omnipotent :p

    I did not know. Someone said it's integrated throughout the curriculum, I thought that was interesting, and could someone give an example in a book that I could look up.

    I wished I'd not shown any interest tbh.


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    #5631
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    I'm just constantly surprised at how much involvement with schools with a heavy faith ethos and involvement people in this thread have.

    In Ireland, if you're a parent then you have no choice in most cases but to get "involved" with a faith ethos school. Educate Together schools are less than 5% of primary schools.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5632
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Treppen wrote: »
    You won't find it in regular text books. Every now and again it crops up in training days (not run by the department). Last time it happened in our school (secondary) it was about 12 years ago and we all had to do a course on teaching through the ethos or somesuch. Every subject had to come up with a way to incorporate the faith.

    Interesting. Does this take place on a school day, is attendance compulsory, and how do they enforce that?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5633
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    ....
    Why are you surprised? ....

    I'm surprised because without trying all of the schools I've (and anyone I know) have experience of have very little religious influence. Religion as a subject never been taken seriously.

    Yet many in this thread, (who I have assume would tried it) seem to managed to find schools with a level of religious fanaticism that wouldn't be out of place 70 yrs ago.

    That's what's surprising.


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    #5634
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    In Ireland, if you're a parent then you have no choice in most cases but to get "involved" with a faith ethos school. Educate Together schools are less than 5% of primary schools.

    It's not that they are involved in faith schools. It's that they've managed to find really, really religious schools.


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    #5635
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Well every day's a school day, Flinty. Got kids yourself and what type of school do they go to?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5636
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Flinty997 wrote: »
    It's not that they are involved in faith schools. It's that they've managed to find really, really religious schools.

    About 95% of Irish primary schools are "really, really religious" so I don't know why you'd think a school controlled by a church would not push religion onto kids.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #5637
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Interesting. Does this take place on a school day, is attendance compulsory, and how do they enforce that?

    I was wondering the same thing. Also if it's every 12yrs it can't have much influence. I must ask the teachers I know have any had a similar experience.


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    #5638
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    About 95% of Irish primary schools are "really, really religious" so I don't know why you'd think a school controlled by a church would not push religion onto kids.

    Not been my experience, even in the CBS.

    Why. Because mostly the staff aren't interested. The church simply doesn't have enough bodies on the ground anymore. Didn't even in my day.


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    #5639
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Well every day's a school day, Flinty. Got kids yourself and what type of school do they go to?

    Sure a bunch. I generally go through their books if not for homework, when disposing them end of each year due to the horrifying book (and work books) churn. Save the best of their work etc. I think if it was riddled with fire and brimstone I might have noticed.


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    #5640
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 11,597 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I will say that as the church fades in Ireland. Those that are left are the most devoted. Fanatical even. The church in another open mouth change foot has decided to become very strict. All this has done is alienate more people quicker.

    I suspect it's these remaining lay groups we are seeing trying to exert control in some schools and parishes. It's pointless. All is doing hastening the point at which the govt will be forced to strip patronage from schools.


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    #5641
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,268 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    About 95% of Irish primary schools are "really, really religious" .

    Not sure about that. Any national teacher I know in a so called Catholic school has no faith whatsoever. They are literally teaching something they think themselves think is make believe. You couldn't make it up!

    The horse has bolted with the baptism barrier gone. Its slow moving, but communion and conformations will be eventually moved to out of hours, and become an opt-in part of a child's upbringing. Then watch communions and confirmations fall off a cliff.


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