United Ireland Poll - please vote

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 12:01pm

Whatcar212 wrote: »

So you are insulted on behalf of all unionists or are you just assuming you know what all unionists think?

I know many unionists (pretty much all my unionists friends actually) who don't give a crap about the flag or the anthem or any of that.
Those are token issues for those with extreme views.

The normal people of NI are only concerned about their quality of life and how that is affect. The rest is just tokenism.

One post comparing unionist to KKK, next trying to say you have unionist friends

Whatcar212 wrote: »

Why do people assume the needs of a minority must be catered to and given even keel to the majority.
This doesn't happen anywhere else, yet for some reason hardline unionists need to be catered to... I'm not buying into that crap. They can keep their parades but have them restricted to their own areas.

What next? A KKK march down O'Connell Street to cater to the minority of racists in the country?

This mindset of the catering to keep a unionist minority happy is a joke

A United ireland should be for everyone, not just the people who think they know what everyone else wants. That’s the bit people are struggling with here and making up stories ain’t going to change that

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 12:06pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

One post comparing unionist to KKK, next trying to say you have unionist friends

A United ireland should be for everyone, not just the people who think they know what everyone else wants. That’s the bit people are struggling with here and making up stories ain’t going to change that

A UI is for those who want it, just like the country now.

If you don't want it, nobody is going to force you, but you have to accept the democratic wishes of the majority. There is really no alternative to that, if there is, please outline what you think the alternative is.

That is what moderate Unionism and nationalism and the south signed up to in the GFA.

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 12:14pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A UI is for those who want it, just like the country now.

If you don't want it, nobody is going to force you, but you have to accept the democratic wishes of the majority. There is really no alternative to that, if there is, please outline what you think the alternative is.

That is what moderate Unionism and nationalism and the south signed up to in the GFA.

What’s the plan? Stick people in camps who don’t agree with you?

The hint is in the name “United Ireland”, it is for everyone

In this new Ireland are LGTBQ community allowed? Do you have an entrance exam of questionnaire to full out?

Whatcar212 · 01-07-2021 12:16pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

One post comparing unionist to KKK, next trying to say you have unionist friends

A United ireland should be for everyone, not just the people who think they know what everyone else wants. That’s the bit people are struggling with here and making up stories ain’t going to change that

I'm born and raised in derry (before moving to the south). of course I have unionist friends. all small u unionist and normal people. Capital U unionists are extremists and have no place being accommodated anywhere. Not in NI, the south, or in a UI. Same goes for those with extreme nationalist views.

Not a single normal person in NI has ever threatened to march down O'connell street. Because they are not nut jobs.

Too many on here have an awful habit of lumping normal unionists in with the extreme ones and pretending these extreme views are held by the majority

Also: KKK reference is an analogy not a comparison. You should try politics, you are good at twisting other peoples words.

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 12:19pm

Whatcar212 wrote: »

I'm born and raised in derry (before moving to the south). of course I have unionist friends. all small u unionist and normal people. Capital U unionists are extremists and have no place being accommodated anywhere. Not in NI, the south, or in a UI. Same goes for those with extreme nationalist views.

Not a single normal person in NI has ever threatened to march down O'connell street. Because they are not nut jobs.

Too many on here have an awful habit of lumping normal unionists in with the extreme ones and pretending these extreme views are held by the majority

Gemma and her lot walk down O Connell street, in this new United Ireland are you banning them?

Sounds like we are ending up with a fairly s**ty country with people having no freedom.

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 12:21pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So why are you not lobbying to get rid of it now.

If it is 'irredeemable', that is your logic.

No need to mention the UJ, deal with your position on the flag.

You really love to misrepresent others.

I didn't use the word 'irredeemable', yet you place it in quotations to imply that I did.
I didn't bring up the UJ, that was introduced as a whataboutery item by another poster.
I never said I wanted to get rid of the flag.
I referenced clearly its use in Northern Ireland by SF/IRA as the problem which creates a context where it could not be used in a united Ireland context

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 12:24pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

What’s the plan? Stick people in camps who don’t agree with you?

The hint is in the name “United Ireland”, it is for everyone

In this new Ireland are LGTBQ community allowed? Do you have an entrance exam of questionnaire to full out?

No, I don't see internment as a solution. EVERYONE is free to decide if they wish to engage or not. SAME as happens in any democratic country, same as what happens here now (it didn't under the early decades of the power swap). We call it a 'modern inclusive society' for a reason (even though politically we have a way to go)

What will happen is the same thing that happened with the GFA and to those who didn't sign up to it - the world will swiftly move on and they will diminish in strength and the ability to destabilse - again, as we have seen.

You still haven't outlined your alternative for dealing with those who don't want to engage with the state.

Will it be pointless asking you to answer that? Just say so and we'll move on without back and forth.

Whatcar212 · 01-07-2021 12:27pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

Gemma and her lot walk down O Connell street, in this new United Ireland are you banning them?

Sounds like we are ending up with a fairly s**ty country with people having no freedom.

Again totally avoiding the point because you know you don't have a legitimate argument to make.

What are you trying to achieve with this post? Do you believe what you have just written, or is it pure fallacy in order to drum up a response so you can change the topic?

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 12:28pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You really love to misrepresent others.
I didn't use the word 'irredeemable', yet you place it in quotations to imply that I did.

I was just shortening what you meant. You said the 'flag' had been misappropriated. How has this been fixed here?
If it hasn't been fixed, how can you still hold it as YOUR flag. Never mind Unionists.
How do you reconcile that?

[*]I referenced clearly its use in Northern Ireland by SF/IRA as the problem which creates a context where it could not be used in a united Ireland context

So you are now taking the position that IRA 'terrorism' only affected the north?

This is gas...logic and past arguments all over the shop.

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 12:32pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I was just shortening what you meant.

No, you were misrepresenting what I posted, and by putting it in quotation marks, were attempting to paint it as my actual words.

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 12:35pm

blanch152 wrote: »

No, you were misrepresenting what I posted, and by putting it in quotation marks, were attempting to paint it as my actual words.

Escape hatch deployed.

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 12:44pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I don't see internment as a solution. EVERYONE is free to decide if they wish to engage or not. SAME as happens in any democratic country, same as what happens here now (it didn't under the early decades of the power swap). We call it a 'modern inclusive society' for a reason (even though politically we have a way to go)

What will happen is the same thing that happened with the GFA and to those who didn't sign up to it - the world will swiftly move on and they will diminish in strength and the ability to destabilse - again, as we have seen.

You still haven't outlined your alternative for dealing with those who don't want to engage with the state.

Will it be pointless asking you to answer that? Just say so and we'll move on without back and forth.

Who said they don’t want to engage in the discussion would be first question I would have?

Nothing about your points is democratic. It’s about trying to put people into groups and then telling them they have no say in the future. Now it’s unionist you are singling out. Who is it tomorrow? you decide they think LGBTQ is wrong, will we need to single them out? Who is next after that? Traveller? Etc etc

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 12:54pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

Who said they don’t want to engage in the discussion would be first question I would have?

Nothing about your points is democratic. It’s about trying to put people into groups and then telling them they have no say in the future. Now it’s unionist you are singling out. Who is it tomorrow? you decide they think LGBTQ is wrong, will we need to single them out? Who is next after that? Traveller? Etc etc

What are you on about?

Another poster who will NOT enter genuine debate and go off in tangents or deploy escape hatches when challenged.

The DUP and it's support will not engage in discussions on a UI nor countenance it happening. They even accused our TD's of breaking the GFA for expressing their desire to see a UI.

What is your alternative for dealing with those who refuse to engage with the state or accept the democratic will of the people?

In the instance of LGBTQ rights - what is your solution to deal with those still denying them rights even though their parliament and executive have gien those rights.

Time you answered some questions instead of diverting.

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 1:31pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What are you on about?

Another poster who will NOT enter genuine debate and go off in tangents or deploy escape hatches when challenged.

The DUP and it's support will not engage in discussions on a UI nor countenance it happening. They even accused our TD's of breaking the GFA for expressing their desire to see a UI.

What is your alternative for dealing with those who refuse to engage with the state or accept the democratic will of the people?

In the instance of LGBTQ rights - what is your solution to deal with those still denying them rights even though their parliament and executive have gien those rights.

Time you answered some questions instead of diverting.

The DUP have already engaged in a debate on a United Ireland. So that is a lie.

Not sure why you think you can make demands to other posters.

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 1:41pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

The DUP have already engaged in a debate on a United Ireland. So that is a lie. It's a lot more than some parties have done.

Not sure why you think you can make demands to other posters.

We are all debating. The issue is engaging in discussions on creating a UI and accepting the will of the people. How are they doing on that score at the minute?

Alright, you should have just said you had no intention of answering the question when you were asked. I knew this would be the escape hatch you would use.

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 1:51pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are all debating. The issue is engaging in discussions on creating a UI and accepting the will of the people. How are they doing on that score at the minute?

Alright, you should have just said you had no intention of answering the question when you were asked. I knew this would be the escape hatch you would use.

So you admit you lied and the DUP are in fact engage in a United Ireland discussion.

So I go back to my original question, who has said they won’t engage in a discussion?

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 2:01pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

So you admit you lied and the DUP are in fact engage in a United Ireland discussion.

So I go back to my original question, who has said they won’t engage in a discussion?

Pedantry now. OK I'll clarify:

The DUP will not engage in a discussion about setting up a UI.

If that is wrong, show me where.

p.s. Arlene Foster rubbished any debate/discussion on a UI as recently as April, after a poll showed a majority on both sides of the border thought that NI would leave the UK within 25 years.

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 2:57pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Pedantry now. OK I'll clarify:

The DUP will not engage in a discussion about setting up a UI.

If that is wrong, show me where.

p.s. Arlene Foster rubbished any debate/discussion on a UI as recently as April, after a poll showed a majority on both sides of the border thought that NI would leave the UK within 25 years.

And you seriously expect them to engage in a discussion about setting up a UI? Are you deluded?

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 3:05pm

blanch152 wrote: »

And you seriously expect them to engage in a discussion about setting up a UI? Are you deluded?

No, I don't expect them to because of their stated position.

So, if a majority vote for a UI...how would you deal with those who do not want to engage with the negotiations.

If you are not going to answer this either, can you just say so now?

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 3:21pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I don't expect them to because of their stated position.

So, if a majority vote for a UI...how would you deal with those who do not want to engage with the negotiations.

If you are not going to answer this either, can you just say so now?

IF that ever happens, then I am sure that they will engage.

However, expecting them to do so now, or to even hint that they will do so in the event of a successful border poll, is delusional.

hometruths · 01-07-2021 3:26pm

blanch152 wrote: »

IF that ever happens, then I am sure that they will engage.

However, expecting them to do so now, or to even hint that they will do so in the event of a successful border poll, is delusional.

But if the DUP refuse to engage, and even refuse to even hint that they might be willing to engage prior to a border poll, surely they cannot expect to issuing demands after a YES vote.

In those circumstances the right attitude to take with them is, we've had the vote, respect the will of the majority.

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 3:26pm

blanch152 wrote: »

IF that ever happens, then I am sure that they will engage.

However, expecting them to do so now, or to even hint that they will do so in the event of a successful border poll, is delusional.

The question you sidestepped is: IF a majority voted for a UI and IF there were some who refused to engage, HOW would you propose to deal with them.

The question is not about what you think will happen.

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 4:24pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The question you sidestepped is: IF a majority voted for a UI and IF there were some who refused to engage, HOW would you propose to deal with them.

The question is not about what you think will happen.

I suppose that we would hope that a statesman of the stature of John Hume would step up to the plate and talk to them in the way that he brought the SF/IRA terrorists back from the cliff edge back in the day.

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 4:25pm

Just put up by FF

“A new Shared Island Unit has been set up to work with all communities and traditions on the island to build consensus around a shared future on the island underpinned by the Good Friday Agreement #CommunitiesFirst”

At least FF are thinking about all communities

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 4:26pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What are you on about?

Another poster who will NOT enter genuine debate and go off in tangents or deploy escape hatches when challenged.

It is always someone else's fault.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Time you answered some questions instead of diverting.

Sometime, you might take your own advice on some things.

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 4:27pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

Just put up by FF

“A new Shared Island Unit has been set up to work with all communities and traditions on the island to build consensus around a shared future on the island underpinned by the Good Friday Agreement #CommunitiesFirst”

At least FF are thinking about all communities

I think the wording around a shared future on the island is very important because of its inclusive nature, a united Ireland is only one possible option of a shared future.

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 4:31pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I suppose that we would hope that a statesman of the stature of John Hume would step up to the plate and talk to them in the way that he brought the SF/IRA terrorists back from the cliff edge back in the day.

DO you understand the word 'refuse'?

It means people who will not respond to an entreaties from anyone to engage. The 'John Hume's' have been rebuffed and all other options closed. They REFUSE to engage. Again, in light of that, are you prepared to answer the actual question or keep evading it?

IF a majority voted for a UI and IF there were some who refused to engage, HOW would you propose to deal with them.

*By the way, it was the same genepool who wrecked John's much vaunted Sunningdale Agreement. So maybe looking for someone of similar ilk might not be a great idea.

FrancieBrady · 01-07-2021 4:32pm

ineedeuro wrote: »

Just put up by FF

“A new Shared Island Unit has been set up to work with all communities and traditions on the island to build consensus around a shared future on the island underpinned by the Good Friday Agreement #CommunitiesFirst”

At least FF are thinking about all communities

A new one? What happened the one that was already working?

ineedeuro · 01-07-2021 4:33pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the wording around a shared future on the island is very important because of its inclusive nature, a united Ireland is only one possible option of a shared future.

Plenty of options, a stand-alone NI which is part of the EU could be an option as well

A NI which is part of UK but has its own government as well could be option

blanch152 · 01-07-2021 4:40pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

DO you understand the word 'refuse'?

It means people who will not respond to an entreaties from anyone to engage. The 'John Hume's' have been rebuffed and all other options closed. They REFUSE to engage. Again, in light of that, are you prepared to answer the actual question or keep evading it?

*By the way, it was the same genepool who wrecked John's much vaunted Sunningdale Agreement. So maybe looking for someone of similar ilk might not be a great idea.

The thing about the John Hume process is that it was mostly secretive. There were plenty of Shinners who didn't know the quiet surrender was underway. It will be the same if the scenario you paint ever comes to pass (and it is so far-fetched that the label hypotethical isn't deserved) as you will be fuming in public about unionist intransigence and the secret talks will be resolving it.

United Ireland Poll - please vote

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