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Average V Median wage Ireland?

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    #422
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    If I owned a bar and there were 100 drinkers sitting in it who normally couldn't afford their bus-fare home. If Jeff Bezos steps in the odd time, the average customer becomes a millionaire.

    If I were to advertise "Come to my bar, the average customer is a millionaire" I'd be accused of misleading the public - while in fact I would be telling no lie!

    Get my drift?


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    #423
    Bif
    Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭Bif


    Vradkar continually mentioning the “median” wage in relation to living wage proposals he was explaining on media today.


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    #424
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Bif wrote: »
    Vradkar continually mentioning the “median” wage in relation to living wage proposals he was explaining on media today.

    Actually, I thought he used both 'average' and 'median'.


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    #425
    timeToLive
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭timeToLive


    Benedict wrote: »
    If I owned a bar and there were 100 drinkers sitting in it who normally couldn't afford their bus-fare home. If Jeff Bezos steps in the odd time, the average customer becomes a millionaire.

    If I were to advertise "Come to my bar, the average customer is a millionaire" I'd be accused of misleading the public - while in fact I would be telling no lie!

    Get my drift?


    it's a fair point


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    #426
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭purifol0


    The public sector has long enjoyed 30-40% average higher earnings than the private sector. That's why the average industrial wage looks so high.

    Try find average earnings for public and private sector on any dept.s website though...hint: they stopped publishing them ages ago.


    "The 2020 Q1 differential between public and private sector pay was 33%"
    https://isme.ie/isme-gives-a-qualified-welcome-to-the-government-decision-to-increase-public-sector-pay/


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    #427
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    timeToLive wrote: »
    Benedict wrote: »
    If I owned a bar and there were 100 drinkers sitting in it who normally couldn't afford their bus-fare home. If Jeff Bezos steps in the odd time, the average customer becomes a millionaire.

    If I were to advertise "Come to my bar, the average customer is a millionaire" I'd be accused of misleading the public - while in fact I would be telling no lie!

    Get my drift?

    it's a fair point

    No it is not. The average wealth of those in the bar would be over a million, but the average customer is not a millionaire. The 'average customer' is not measured by wealth.


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    #428
    timeToLive
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭timeToLive


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    No it is not. The average wealth of those in the bar would be over a million, but the average customer is not a millionaire. The 'average customer' is not measured by wealth.


    The average wealth of the customer is in the millions. Where is the lie here?


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    #429
    Buddy Bubs
    Registered Users Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    Where does 65,000 sit on the scales? Top 25 to 30%?


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    #430
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    purifol0 wrote: »
    The public sector has long enjoyed 30-40% average higher earnings than the private sector. That's why the average industrial wage looks so high.

    Try find average earnings for public and private sector on any dept.s website though...hint: they stopped publishing them ages ago.


    Mean PS earnings are still published.

    The PS wage premium has fallen, due to wage cuts.


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    #431
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Geuze wrote: »
    Mean PS earnings are still published.

    The PS wage premium has fallen, due to wage cuts.


    The public sector have not only enjoyed full pay over the pandemic, but also enjoyed all usual "increments", overtime and indeed several pay rises, as well as guaranteed rises for the next two years (cost to taxpayer will be an extra €0.91 Billion)



    The public sector /private sector pay divide is massive.


    Oh and if you could link to the average pay of the public sector and private sector that would be great!


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    #432
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

    CSO statistical release, 26 June 2020, 11am
    Earnings and Labour Costs Annual
    2019


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    #433
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    purifol0 wrote: »
    The public sector /private sector pay divide is massive.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/


    Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

    Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8. The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4.



    Would you call this a massive gap?

    -0.3% to 6.8%? Is that massive?


    We know that lower earning PS are paid more than their private sector counterparts, yes. The figure is a premium of 12.7% at the tenth percentile.

    We also know that higher earning PS earn less than their counterparts.

    The gap is -13.% below the private sector.


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    #434
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/mainresults/


    Key Findings (2015-2018)

    The trend shows that the pay differential between the public and private sector is steadily declining in the period 2015 to 2018.

    The scale of the pay differential in the public sector was higher for females than for males with the difference in pay differential between females and males in the public sector ranging from 12.9% to 17.3%.

    When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

    The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.


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    #435
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Geuze wrote: »

    We know that lower earning PS are paid more than their private sector counterparts, yes. The figure is a premium of 12.7% at the tenth percentile.

    We also know that higher earning PS earn less than their counterparts.

    That's the worse of both worlds. Paying pen-pushers who won't work a minute past 7.24 hours exactly - due to be even less in the next agreement - far more than necessary. Then limiting those with leadership and managerial talent leaves the PS struggling to recruit people with the right skills at the upper end.


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    #436
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    salonfire wrote: »
    That's the worse of both worlds. Paying pen-pushers who won't work a minute past 7.24 hours exactly - due to be even less in the next agreement - far more than necessary. Then limiting those with leadership and managerial talent leaves the PS struggling to recruit people with the right skills at the upper end.


    And not only managers, the PS needs good IT people and the like and specialists do not always get the premium they would in the private sector.


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    #437
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    There are definite advantages to having a permanent p/s job. One huge perq is the guaranteed pension. Another is job tenure. But by no means all p/s workers are earning good money! Talk to a junior clerk for example.


    And the highest paid job in the p/s is way lower than, for example, many presenters in the media which would be on private sector contracts or execs in financial institutions.


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    #438
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    George Orwell described political language as "designed to make lies sound truthful" (Politics & the Eng. Lang. 1946). A good example is the constant blurring of the distinction between "average/mean" earnings in Ireland and "median" earnings.
    During the '20 election, Leo proudly proclaimed that the "average person" earned 47k per annum.
    Interesting that -not just an ordinary professional nurse but a Senior Nurse in terms of salary would not even have reached the lofty status of "average".

    The terms "average" and "mean" should come with an Orwellian truth warning!


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    #439
    hots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,200 ✭✭✭hots


    Benedict wrote: »
    George Orwell described political language as "designed to make lies sound truthful" (Politics & the Eng. Lang. 1946). A good example is the constant blurring of the distinction between "average/mean" earnings in Ireland and "median" earnings.
    During the '20 election, Leo proudly proclaimed that the "average person" earned 47k per annum.
    Interesting that -not just an ordinary professional nurse but a Senior Nurse in terms of salary would not even have reached the lofty status of "average".

    The terms "average" and "mean" should come with an Orwellian truth warning!

    Or a dictionary definition perhaps :rolleyes:


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    #440
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    hots wrote: »
    Or a dictionary definition perhaps :rolleyes:


    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.


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    #441
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,620 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Benedict wrote: »
    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.

    Senior nurse not on 47k ? I call shenanigans fella.


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    #442
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,808 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    salonfire wrote: »
    That's the worse of both worlds. Paying pen-pushers who won't work a minute past 7.24 hours exactly - due to be even less in the next agreement - far more than necessary. Then limiting those with leadership and managerial talent leaves the PS struggling to recruit people with the right skills at the upper end.

    As a some-time contractor of services to various arms of the public service, I can say with all honesty that some of the most able and strategic people I've collaborated with have been in the public service. They are straight-jacketed by increasingly onerous and more time sapping legislation, in many sectors, that limits innovation and ability to be reactive.


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    #443
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Benedict wrote: »
    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.


    In regards to the junior nurse, you can inform them they have guaranteed increments, across-the board raises, shift allowance, possible location allowances. Just in case they did not know.

    There you go. You just brightened up some nurse's day.


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    #444
    hots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,200 ✭✭✭hots


    Benedict wrote: »
    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.

    pretty strange examples, someone starting their career being on half of the average wage doesn't sound insane? You could have used accountant, engineer or IT consultant either btw.


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    #445
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,373 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Benedict wrote: »
    Yeah okay! But what about the f/t office receptionist or a junior nurse or the countless others earning 30k or less? How do you think they must feel being told they're earning not much more than half what the "average" f/t worker is earning?


    By the way, the "average person" is now supposedly earning almost 50k.


    Numbers dont lie.
    I'm on a lot more than that but there are others in my field and elsewhere earning a heck of a lot more than me. There's others too earning less. I can't get "upset" about "how I feel" if someone is on double my salary. They obviously negotiated better or had better credentials or some other plethora of reasons.


    The mean average is just under 50k so if someone is earning 30k then factually speaking they are 20k under the mean.


    I suspect the median FT earnings would be lower but still above 30k. 30k is quite a low salary for anyone with a qualification or experience tbh.


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    #446
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    it's seems like some folk have made it their mission to turn every discussion on wages into a public sector bashing exercise to derail it.
    Ask them their own job , pay, pension though....


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    #447
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    Of course people shouldn't think that the "average" ft wage is what most people are getting - but that is the perception. And Leo compounded that error by referring to the "average person" (whatever that is).

    The "median" ft wage is what we need to know - and it's not available.

    People guess that it's about 10/12k lower than the "average" ft wage - but we don't know.

    Even the CSO has not published the median ft wage.


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    #448
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,373 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Benedict wrote: »
    Of course people shouldn't think that the "average" ft wage is what most people are getting - but that is the perception. And Leo compounded that error by referring to the "average person" (whatever that is).

    The "median" ft wage is what we need to know - and it's not available.

    People guess that it's about 10/12k lower than the "average" ft wage - but we don't know.

    Even the CSO has not published the median ft wage.


    CSO doesnt have the data to publish it as most companies - especially larger ones - only report average/mean.
    The only people that could publish this would be revenue.


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    #449
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Treppen wrote: »
    it's seems like some folk have made it their mission to turn every discussion on wages into a public sector bashing exercise

    You're 100% right.

    Why do people just refer to the salaries of the junior nurse or the junior garda as a stick to bash the public sector as an Employer with? It simply isn't fair. The PS is a much better employer than that and does not deserve the constant bashing leveled towards it.

    Maybe these people could start referring to the salaries of the experienced nurse or CNMs to give a much clearer picture instead.


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    #450
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,073 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Benedict wrote: »
    Of course people shouldn't think that the "average" ft wage is what most people are getting - but that is the perception. And Leo compounded that error by referring to the "average person" (whatever that is).

    The "median" ft wage is what we need to know - and it's not available.

    Median earnings are published by the CSO.

    See here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/structuralearnings/

    Specifically, see this:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/


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    #451
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,373 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Geuze wrote: »
    Median earnings are published by the CSO.

    See here:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/structuralearnings/

    Specifically, see this:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/


    That's a model though not accurate. Most large companies report mean average earnings so even if CSO publish a "median" there's already some "mean" in there.


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