Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 05-07-2021 5:00pm

Considering that Trump and some Republicans think the NHS is a price fixing cartel that is undermining US pharma export pricing, be careful about diving down that particular libertarian rabbit hole. One person’s cartel is another person’s society.

McGiver · 05-07-2021 5:24pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Indeed, wouldn't any type of club be protectionist in fact i.e. strongly favour the members and give them access to better conditions and facilities than anyone outside the club.

"Protectionist" means something completely different than what Trumpists & Johnsonists talk about. They intentionally apply a different word to a different concept.

Highly regulated is the correct word. Very high standards. Japan is similar to the EU actually, as opposed to say China or the US....

That's what the Brexit idiologues actually mean and that's what they try to attack by camouflage using an incorrect proxy word "protectionist". They don't mean tariffs, the mean standards & regulations which have nothing to do with "protectionism". They'd prefer as few regulations and as low standards as possible and as less international/suprnational oversight as possible. Back to the gunboat diplomacy selling opium and running Victorian sweatshops, I guess.

EDIT: Note that Russian/Kremlin, Trumpist, Orbanist as well as Johnsonist propaganda uses the same word "protectionist" when talking about the EU. Let that sink in, why so...

wexfordman2 · 05-07-2021 5:25pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I doubt leaving the EU means British shellfish will suddenly be unfit for consumption.
European customers have found new suppliers for products they previously got from the UK,it stands to reason UK vendors will look elsewhere to sell their products.

Yep, the frozen food section in Iceland, where they can compete with Indonesian shellfish.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 05-07-2021 5:43pm

Bear in mind it's not "the British" but rather a narrow section of the Tories who seem to be trying to sell the electorate some notion that they'll be better off with zero regulation and some form of absolute economic libertarianism.

The UK has never been that kind of place and I can't see this ending well. They're packaging a very harsh set of economic policies into a big Union Jack and conflating them with patriotism.

The UK has been a very successful example of modern post WWII European social democracy. It has expectations of solid public services and the social mobility that things like access to excellent third level education and so on have afforded people, particularly since the 1960s.

The fetishizing of a bygone Edwardian or even Victorian past can only end in a mess as they're throwing away the tools of a modern that made them competitive and successful after the fizzling out of Imperial Britain.

You can't live in a fantasy about a time that is being remembered through very heavily rose tinted glasses and that for most didn't exist, and certainly no longer exists.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-07-2021 6:04pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The UK was aware that were they to leave the EU SM and CU then such checks would be necessary, as they are for all third countries.

The UK promoted and got the EEC to adopt the Common Market thus transforming in into the EU.

From that point until Jan 1st this year the UK were imposing EU rules on all imports and exports. The rules hadn't changed.

But overnight the UK's role changed from enforcer to supplicant.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-07-2021 6:13pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Lizz Truss likes cheese so maybe that is also something they will benchmark for selling to China. They have already cornered the Japanese market for blue cheese

A reminder that existing EU cheese quota for Japan was 'split' between the EU and the UK. So the Japanese aren't allowing in any more cheese.

Also the EU27 get first dibs on the cheese quota, and then the UK gets what's left over.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 05-07-2021 6:22pm

The issue, as I see it anyway, is that a big element of the UK never really got past the days off empire.

If you look at the history, very large numbers of British subjects/citizens (and pre 1922 that included Ireland) left for better lives in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the USA.

They tend to frame it in language of empires and expats etc but in reality they were often economic migrants. Millions of Irish 'Britons' left that way and very large numbers of Scots and working class English did too, albeit under less extreme conditions than our 19th C.

Does that feature in the British sense of self? Absolutely not.

I just find the UK gets lost in exceptionalism and notions of superiority.

They could be and often were an important, useful, helpful and significant element of the EEC, EC and EU. They had a significant role in shaping its development, but being an ordinary member doesn't fit the national story of self or the ego.

So the notion of playing a team game as an equal party isn't one that an element of the aspect of the British psyche can tolerate. They must own the ball and the rulebook need only apply to others.

You can see it in the inability to really federalise the UK too. They devolve powers, extremely reluctantly, to notional nations but there's always that elements of English supremacy. It's even present in things like the inability to have the UK Central Bank, it's the Bsnk of England etc etc

The Tories seem excruciatingly uncomfortable with modern, quasi federal systems like the Supreme Court of the UK, like Scottish or Welsh devolution etc etc.

I think that element of UK politics, mostly an English Tory phenomenon, sees the EU similarly. They couldn't understand why they weren't able to get the big countries - Germany mostly to just override the piffling small ones and deliver a more suitable result, ignoring irrelevant places like Ireland, because that's how they would do it.

They don't seem to be able to even comprehend the concept of subsidiary or members being equal.

Again this ain't a general British thing. I observe it more in the right leaning elements of English politics and very definitely in that entitled, upper crust of the Toires.

However, I don't think it's ever going to be resolved as it's deeply embedded in a culture, a national mythological and a sense of identity.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-07-2021 6:32pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

The British learned hard lessons from that conflict which has helped military readiness in the event of future conflict.

What lessons ?

They had sold off carriers to India and Australia before the war.

Today the UK still doesn't have fully operational carriers , having to rely on the US Marines to provide aircraft and air crew.

A while back all seven attack subs were out of service.

How many ships are still part of the merchant marine compared to back then ?

It's like Brexit in that the lessons of the past have been ignored.

How has Empire 2.0 gone ?

The UK was a founding member of EFTA and UK bands are free to play in Lichtenstein, slap some blue TIR plates on the trucks and go on tour.

RobMc59 · 05-07-2021 7:27pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

What lessons ?

They had sold off carriers to India and Australia before the war.

Today the UK still doesn't have fully operational carriers , having to rely on the US Marines to provide aircraft and air crew.

A while back all seven attack subs were out of service.

How many ships are still part of the merchant marine compared to back then ?

It's like Brexit in that the lessons of the past have been ignored.

How has Empire 2.0 gone ?

The UK was a founding member of EFTA and UK bands are free to play in Lichtenstein, slap some blue TIR plates on the trucks and go on tour.

Any information I can find about the British carriers is HMS Queen Elizabeth is leading a very large British battle capable fleet which includes French,Dutch and US vessels amongst others on tour to the far east,passing through the south china sea.
A helping hand from the US Marines highlights the oft downplayed cooperation between allies.

ArmaniJeanss · 05-07-2021 10:19pm

Panorama (Ended up being bumped down to BBC2 because of tennis so I missed the first few minutes).

Languistines fishing guy in Scotland
Lots of extra paperwork for EU sales, stressed, overworked. Talk of how he is re-focussing his business and looking to the UK and to the far east. Conveniently talking on the phone when order were coming in from Hong Kong and Singapore. Referred to an order for '200 guests' from the Hyatt in Taiwan.
Later on we saw him doing manifests and appears he is sending via airplane (mention of Heathrow/Manchester) which can't be cheap, but absolutely no discussion of profit margins etc. Would have liked to see the maths of it.

Guy&girl running vegan business from London
Lots of problems selling to EU, with Maltese customs in particular clearly having a good laugh consistently looking for 'animal hygiene certs' for their vegan products.
Stock for EU was tied up for months, lots of opening of pallets to individually label packages whilst the camera was rolling.
Expanding into Canada/USA - sales going great apparently. Nothing they couldn't have done anyway from within EU but seemed a get-up-and-go duo, wish them well.

Guy running huge truck hire company for music gigs
Huge operation, biggest supplier of gigs in Europe with 100 mega trucks. Lots of problems running it from UK so has spent £4M on a site in Holland to park his trucks. Then found out his UK drivers couldn't drive them. I didn't understand the next bit
but he apparently found a loophole to get around this, which involved sending 100 drivers to Ireland for a few weeks to get Irish truck licenses. Because "Ireland has a special rule". Can anyone explain?

Northern Ireland food distributor
Big operation (£150M turnover). Didn't have any huge horror stories to tell, small downturn in profits, just worried about the future when new rules come in in October, and thinks EU need less bureaucracy and UK ought to 'give a bit' as well, though didn't really define this.

Seth Brundle · 05-07-2021 10:50pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Guy running huge truck hire company for music gigs
Huge operation, biggest supplier of gigs in Europe with 100 mega trucks. Lots of problems running it from UK so has spent £4M on a site in Holland to park his trucks. Then found out his UK drivers couldn't drive them. I didn't understand the next bit
but he apparently found a loophole to get around this, which involved sending 100 drivers to Ireland for a few weeks to get Irish truck licenses. Because "Ireland has a special rule". Can anyone explain?

I think he is mistaken.
His British drivers need to show residency (for minimum of six months) in the RoI and surrender their UK licence
https://www.ndls.ie/licensed-driver/exchange-my-uk-ni-licence.html

Here is a summary of the main interviews for those that didn't see it (to be honest, IMO it looks like they carefully selected the interviews for a political purpose!)...

https://twitter.com/BBCPanorama/status/1412001891718995969?s=19

https://twitter.com/BBCPanorama/status/1412113214972870660?s=19

https://twitter.com/BBCPanorama/status/1411987856906653703?s=19

https://twitter.com/BBCPanorama/status/1412123027085660160?s=19

Peregrinus · 06-07-2021 2:07am

RobMc59 wrote: »

Any information I can find about the British carriers is HMS Queen Elizabeth is leading a very large British battle capable fleet which includes French,Dutch and US vessels amongst others on tour to the far east,passing through the south china sea.

If it includes French, Dutch and US vessels, then in what sense is is a "British battle fleet"? It's a multinational fleet, surely?

RobMc59 wrote: »

A helping hand from the US Marines highlights the oft downplayed cooperation between allies.

Providing the aircraft and the aircrew is not really "a helping hand" when it comes to operating an aircraft carrier, is it? It's the point of the whole thing. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the UK is providing a helping hand by making a mobile airbase available to US air assets?

BlitzKrieg · 06-07-2021 3:27am

I'm trying to follow the vegan one's problem, because of how it's edited I'm not sure who she means when she says she is getting conflicted reports on the Malta shipment. Is it from the british government telling her she doesnt need documentation or is it another branch of the EU?

Cause judging by the results being they needed to label every bar it sounds like the issue was the bars lacked improper labeling to identify themselves as a vegan product?

Was Malta their only EU costumer, or did other EU states not have issues?

I honestly have more questions after this then I did at the beginning.

rock22 · 06-07-2021 7:26am

RobMc59 wrote: »

Any information I can find about the British carriers is HMS Queen Elizabeth is leading a very large British battle capable fleet which includes French,Dutch and US vessels amongst others on tour to the far east,passing through the south china sea.
A helping hand from the US Marines highlights the oft downplayed cooperation between allies.

Is it really a proper carrier though?
They failed to modify it to take catapult assisted launch aircraft so it can only be used for VERTOL types . it looks very much like a big white elephant.

But being big is exactly what the UK want now as they will no doubt sail up the Pearl river and put down any nonsense the Chinese might have about sovereignty and not buying the British Opium in a new trade war. Or am I mixing up the 21st and the 19th Centuries?

rock22 · 06-07-2021 8:12am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Panorama (Ended up being bumped down to BBC2 because of tennis so I missed the first few minutes).

Languistines fishing guy in Scotland
Lots of extra paperwork for EU sales, stressed, overworked. Talk of how he is re-focussing his business and looking to the UK and to the far east. Conveniently talking on the phone when order were coming in from Hong Kong and Singapore. Referred to an order for '200 guests' from the Hyatt in Taiwan.
Later on we saw him doing manifests and appears he is sending via airplane (mention of Heathrow/Manchester) which can't be cheap, but absolutely no discussion of profit margins etc. Would have liked to see the maths of it.

Are we assume that the fisherman does not want to certify his fish as being clean, from an inspected environment and free from heavy metals etc?

Are we to assume that the Hyatt Hotel in Taiwan do not require any certification about the quality of the fish product they will serve their customers?

The fact that i am even asking the question makes me reluctant to eat any UK sourced food if the producer things such certification "is a waste of time and paper".

Peregrinus · 06-07-2021 8:20am

rock22 wrote: »

Are we assume that the fisherman does not want to certify his fish as being clean, from an inspected environment and free from heavy metals etc?

Are we to assume that the Hyatt Hotel in Taiwan do not require any certification about the quality of the fish product they will serve their customers?

The fact that i am even asking the question makes me reluctant to eat any UK sourced food if the producer things such certification "is a waste of time and paper".

You can safely eat UK produce if it has been imported into the EU, since in that case it will have been certified.

CelticRambler · 06-07-2021 8:39am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I think he is mistaken.
His British drivers need to show residency (for minimum of six months) in the RoI and surrender their UK licence
https://www.ndls.ie/licensed-driver/exchange-my-uk-ni-licence.html

https://twitter.com/BBCPanorama/status/1411987856906653703?s=19

Yeah, something in all of that doesn't make sense. I'd be wondering if he's interpreted RoI-NI arrangements as Ireland's "special rules" and not realised that they don't extend to continental Europe.

In any case, his British drivers are still British people, and will still be limited to 90 days presence in the EU in any rolling six month period. That'll add an extra challenge and effectively require him to employ and scheduled twice the number of drivers compared to previously. Or employ Europeans and avoid the hassle.

Quite a nice summary of how intricately the EU was woven into ordinary British life - but we knew that ... :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 06-07-2021 8:50am

It's a perfect storm regarding drivers, the Brexit factor and the British driver (at the moment anyhow) won't do the work as the pay and conditions are atrocious. They took in Polish, who have gotten wise and left as have the Romanians.
A driver was telling me that bigger companies are paying upwards of 50 pounds an hour + bonuses to agencies and only £25 approx is filtering down to drivers (a rise) but also paying their own in house drivers terribly.
The result is an increasingly fluid and diminishing workforce as more and more move around looking for better wages and many leaving the job altogether. In excess of 50,000 drivers are registered and legal to drive but don't, apparently.
It is costing companies huge money at the minute so it's hard to see what the fix is.

rock22 · 06-07-2021 9:00am

Peregrinus wrote: »

You can safely eat UK produce if it has been imported into the EU, since in that case it will have been certified.

It will be certified by UK authorities. In the same way that the Indian made Astra Zeneca vaccine is being certified as British?

Do we still trust those certificates when a producer is saying he does not want to do the paperwork to certify his product, . After all , Brexit is about breaking away from the EU standards and bureaucracy.

As a consumer, I would have thought that a producer would be happy and proud to certify his/her product as of the highest quality. What i hear from that fisherman is that it is too much trouble.

timetogo1 · 06-07-2021 9:42am

rock22 wrote: »

Are we assume that the fisherman does not want to certify his fish as being clean, from an inspected environment and free from heavy metals etc?

Are we to assume that the Hyatt Hotel in Taiwan do not require any certification about the quality of the fish product they will serve their customers?

The fact that i am even asking the question makes me reluctant to eat any UK sourced food if the producer things such certification "is a waste of time and paper".

Ha same. I was thinking I don't want to eat food in the Hyatt hotel when watching that. Their certification seemed to be a photo of the product. Yummmm.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2021 10:13am

British products would not even need any certification a number of months ago, and no one was rabidly avoiding them then. That is presumably the source of the producer's comments. For him nothing has changed except suddenly he requires paperwork.

The EU is, for now, happy to extend grace periods because the UK has not actually in any significant way yet departed from the EU regulatory framework. The reason they won't grant any kind of equivalence is because the UK refuse to commit to that staying the same in the future. Avoiding UK products at the moment is kind of hysterical.

The Raging Bile Duct · 06-07-2021 10:26am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Avoiding UK products at the moment is kind of hysterical.

If you're in a business that need a regular and stable supply chain, I'd imagine looking to Europe would make more sense than continuing to source it from the UK when you don't know what could change in the coming months or years. It's hardly hysterical, it's just contingency planning.

ambro25 · 06-07-2021 10:32am

Podge_irl wrote: »

British products would not even need any certification a number of months ago, and no one was rabidly avoiding them then. That is presumably the source of the producer's comments. For him nothing has changed except suddenly he requires paperwork.

The EU is, for now, happy to extend grace periods because the UK has not actually in any significant way yet departed from the EU regulatory framework. The reason they won't grant any kind of equivalence is because the UK refuse to commit to that staying the same in the future. Avoiding UK products at the moment is kind of hysterical.

For many Continent-based consumers, it’s already an enforced choice.

British food sections, of which there was one in just about every local supermarket (Auchan, Cactus, Delhaize, Smatch) and each very well stocked (Heinz, Cadbury’s, Sharwood, Hellman’s, etc) have simply vanished here in Lux. Everywhere.

Even La Provençale (which is to Lux, what eg Billingsgate is to London and Rungis is to Paris) is long out of such staple GB stuff. And if *they* don’t have it, online is your last resort.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2021 10:36am

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

If you're in a business that need a regular and stable supply chain, I'd imagine looking to Europe would make more sense than continuing to source it from the UK when you don't know what could change in the coming months or years. It's hardly hysterical, it's just contingency planning.

Refusing to eat British food that has made its way into the EU is hysterical. I would have thought that clear from the context of what I was replying to.

Peregrinus · 06-07-2021 10:37am

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

If you're in a business that need a regular and stable supply chain, I'd imagine looking to Europe would make more sense than continuing to source it from the UK when you don't know what could change in the coming months or years. It's hardly hysterical, it's just contingency planning.

If the UK-sourced products are offered for sale in the EU, they're safe. They have the required certification. You don't need to avoid buying them just because other UK products are being offered in Taiwan, which requires less certification.

If the products are not being offered for sale in the EU, then you don't have to make any choice about whether to avoid buying them. If they're not for sale, they can't be bought.

ambro25 · 06-07-2021 10:43am

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

If you're in a business that need a regular and stable supply chain, I'd imagine looking to Europe would make more sense than continuing to source it from the UK when you don't know what could change in the coming months or years. It's hardly hysterical, it's just contingency planning.

I mentioned the below once or twice before, since January:

Home from Home, a specialty store in Luxembourg, says its customers are “very happy" with the switch to Irish goods.

Owner John Heffernan said he is getting sausages, black pudding and bacon from Crowe’s Farm.

“Our customer base is very, very happy with the products from Crowe’s, and they’re finding it’s better quality meat."

He said he would be looking at other suppliers in Ireland to help fill the shelves in the store.

“Our shelves are half empty as well, and we can’t get nothing over [sic]. So we will be switching over.”

(source).

BlitzKrieg · 06-07-2021 10:44am

Saw this on the UK reddit: https://nation.cymru/news/boris-johnson-would-like-to-reverse-devolution-but-wouldnt-dare-says-cummings/

And was trying to remember the exact details but I recall a chunk of the Brexit legislation Boris etc passed took away a bunch of devolution powers in the process.

It's kind of makes you see how brexit has in many ways been warped into the tool for the conservatives to fight all their ongoing political battles domestically as much as it's a problem internationally.

RobMc59 · 06-07-2021 11:00am

Peregrinus wrote: »

If it includes French, Dutch and US vessels, then in what sense is is a "British battle fleet"? It's a multinational fleet, surely?

Providing the aircraft and the aircrew is not really "a helping hand" when it comes to operating an aircraft carrier, is it? It's the point of the whole thing. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the UK is providing a helping hand by making a mobile airbase available to US air assets?

I'm not sure of your nationality but Britain and British people have always realised things like NATO or WW2 was a joint effort by many nations.
Admittedly,that might be incomprehensible if you country wasn't part of those moments in history.

Seth Brundle · 06-07-2021 11:05am

Podge_irl wrote: »

The reason they won't grant any kind of equivalence is because the UK refuse to commit to that staying the same in the future. Avoiding UK products at the moment is kind of hysterical.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Refusing to eat British food that has made its way into the EU is hysterical. I would have thought that clear from the context of what I was replying to.

They may be refusing to eat it because of potentially different standards (which should not yet be the case) or they may simply be choosing to eat EU sourced food simply because they would rather that than food from a third country. Solidarity of sorts.
In terms of non-food items, if buying online, I've changed to using EU based sources - usually cheaper and as efficient.

Podge_irl · 06-07-2021 11:06am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not sure of your nationality but Britain and British people have always realised things like NATO or WW2 was a joint effort by many nations.
Admittedly,that might be incomprehensible if you country wasn't part of those moments in history.

I think the point is more that providing the aircraft and flight crew for an aircraft carrier is the difference between it being functional and a pointless metal tub. It is not a "helping hand".

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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