All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship (Liam McCarthy Cup) 2021

External Association · 19-07-2021 4:34pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633207#Comment_117633207

3 players who never played senior inter county. Also it's a bit hollow saying here's 3 natural players out of a pop of 1.38 million when I can name 3 from my county out of 80,000 pop (15,000 commuters from Dublin) who are playing football and would be an addition to our hurlers.

By the way Con is excellent, Costello probably, but Ciaran Kilkenny, and i saw 3 of his minor games in 2011 was big, strong and 'functional' not a top notch hurler, but would fit into a county team. But every dual county has those. And with fractions of your population. You should be able to deal with it. The Cuala and Kilmacud facilities are better than most counties.

In my opinion, and many commentators who won't say on radio and tv, Dublin hurlers, often lack finesse. That is why out of 8 counties left you are rank outsiders at 66/1 to win Liam. Clare next 25/1.

Ye got a bad blow with Covid Saturday. But you lack the hurlers to consistently beat the bigger teams. Time for all your hurling men and women to work on the skills from under age up.

External Association · 19-07-2021 4:42pm

Is there anything else hurling wise we can talk about Dubh Gorm?

Who will win between Cork v Clare?

gormdubhgorm · 19-07-2021 4:47pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633293#Comment_117633293

My point is that you said/implied Dublin don't produce 'natural' hurlers they clearly do. Also your point on the media saying they never say Dublin lack finesse. They nearly always imply the opposite, normally those watching from a distance then they are surprised when Dublin beat one of the big guns.

There are plenty of natural hurlers in Dublin both past and present who have played intercounty. Eoghan O'Donnell (who all counties rave about) , Liam Rushe (all stars), Paul Ryan, McCrabbe (all star), Trollier Dillion, McCrabbe (who got an all star) and Johnny McCaffrey.

The problem Dublin have is that they have natural hurlers, but they do not have enough of them particularly in the forwards. That is why Chris Crummey is played in the forwards square peg in a round hole. Horse of a man, fast, athletic but not a natural scorer.

Another problem Dublin have is the fellas that fall away from hurling and chose football instead. It is difficult to get their hurling sharpness back. A fella like Costello would be prime example. Would he be the same player at Senior intercounty hurling at this stage as he was at underage about a decade ago?

Also on population not all areas Dublin play GAA as you well know, for start. For various reasons. Competition with other sports large foreign population etc. Whole areas of Dublin have no serious GAA foothold. And even less play hurling.

PTH2009 · 19-07-2021 4:54pm

I'm assuming there will be 1000s permitted to the weekends qualifiers

Nowlan Park was grand the other day, very organised and relaxed. They had a few 'covid security stewards' walking around

External Association · 19-07-2021 4:59pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633362#Comment_117633362

Again you name 6 or 7 hurlers!! That's the point, not nearly enough. Imagine a Clare man typing out 6/7 natural hurlers over 12 years!!

'Another problem Dublin have is the fellas that fall away from hurling and chose football instead'. Are you deliberately being silly or has it to be pointed out several times most counties have this problem (Podge Collins and Gary Brennan Clare footballers) and it's amplified by their lack of resources compared to Dublin??

When your footballers were losing 1983-1995 and 1995-2011 hurling was still at the same level in Dublin. So it's nothing to do with recent football success. Throughout the association's history Dublin all-ireland winning teams were composed mostly of country men getting work in the capital. It's up to Dublin County Board to progress the game, no one else.

Could you do us up your 5/8 point plan for Dublin hurling please?

breezy1985 · 19-07-2021 5:00pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633214#Comment_117633214

Best thing about that goal is that by the letter of the law any foul on Hayes from anywhere between the goal and Limericks 45 is now a black card and a penalty : )

External Association · 19-07-2021 5:23pm

The best 2 native hurlers from the 1960s back were 2 north Dublin farmers, Lar and Des Foley.. is that coincidental.. Does it say something about the historical development of hurling in urban Dublin by the County Board...

gormdubhgorm · 19-07-2021 5:28pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633435#Comment_117633435

Again I bring you back to my original point which is why I was annoyed with you in the first place.

You said 'you can throw all sorts of money at it but Hurlers are born not manufactured'.

We know the implicatication - the first was related to issues well debated on other threads. The second was an implication that Dublin have no 'natural hurlers'. I pointed out the crew that chose Football over Hurling. I then pointed out lads from recent history. Suddenly this is 'not enough' for you.

Yet I mentioned Dublin's all-star recognition and that is 'not enough'.

I even forgot sutcliffe and Kelly by the way in a short period of years since 2009

In recent history once Dublin have started taking hurling seriously (before it used to be viewed as a game for culchies at best, or worst an afterthought)

Dublin have one National League 2011 (1)

Leinster Hurling Title 2013 (1)

A number of LF final appearances 2009, 2011, 2014, 2021 (4)

u21 Leinster 06 -10 - 11 -14 -16 (5)

Minor AI hurling runners up 2011, 2012 (2)

Leinster Minor winners 05, 07, 11, 12, 16, 18 (5)

It looks like Dublin are doing OK and must have some 'natural hurlers' otherwise the standard of hurling must have went to the dogs in 12 years?? Particularly at underage level in leinster?

--

I fail to see why I should lay out a Dublin 5 point plan they are doing trojan work or the game of hurling. And growing the game as evidenced in the success listed above. What I would like to see a scheme where dual players would be encouraged to switch codes. Even if just for 35 mins to strengthen the hurling squad. Similar to what Lee Chin of Wexford at different codes.

Oh and more respect from hurling people given to Dublin hurling. With less of the generalised lazy cliches. As evidenced by some in the media and some posters on boards.ie.

Hurling people are missing out seeing great hurlers like Con O'Callaghan play inter county hurling, and a more competitive Dublin team means a more competitive hurling championship. It is only logical. Lots of untapped potential.

More people play and the game grows. Less people play and the game stagnates remains localised. No new exposure.

External Association · 19-07-2021 5:40pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633577#Comment_117633577

Great. All internal stuff. Leave us culchies in peace so. We reserve the right to express the opinion you don't produce enough natural hurlers per playing population. Even since ye started taking hurling seriously.

Very few want to engage with someone who thinks the game of hurling would be nowhere without Dublin as you stated. The oul 'parochial stuff' that fills stadia up and down the country, even 82,000 Croke Park, when there are no Dubs playing.

gormdubhgorm · 19-07-2021 5:49pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633636#Comment_117633636

You completely missing my point either deliberately or not I don't know? But you were the one who claimed either directly or indirectly that Dublin produce no 'natural hurlers'. I have given you as cogent an argument as I can to refute that remark which annoyed me.

In response you have backtracked a little bit saying it is not 'enough' natural hurlers, and asked me to lay out a five point plan (for some odd reason!).

I listed Dublin's recent hurling success and how the lazy cliches about Dublin hurling both in the media and on boards.ie annoy me.

And now your response is simply 'leave me in peace'. 😀 You had no further points at all in reply. Merely, more snide remarks.

I have also mentioned that I believe Dublin hurling is important to keep hurling alive and growing. A view a great hurling man like Brian Cody concurs with. Not that hurling would be 'nowhere' as you stated.

Also, regarding attendances hurling struggles to fill CP except mostly on AI final days, it is much easier to get a hurling ticket than a football one. That is just a fact of life. A successful Dublin hurling team will bring the crowds in once the culture had been created.

External Association · 19-07-2021 6:04pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633688#Comment_117633688

You listed titles won underage and the two adult titles won. Teams win through physique and other reasons in hurling.

Clare 1995-97 had a great defence but they were very average stickmen in their forwards. Fitness and organisation and brilliant backs were their strengths. Offaly 1990s, now they were class wristy, natural hurlers. Tipp 2010 and 2014-19. Cork teams are generally very natural. Kilkenny in their pomp. You can win a lot through organisation. Notice how your success chart tails off in senior inter county hurling? That physical advantage recedes. Also club success is well removed from county. Camross, Laois, were in the 1976 AI club final and Leinster champs in 1996. Mount Leinster Rangers, Carlow reached the 2013 AI final.

You didn't say alive and growing, you called hurling that parochial stuff without Dublin. Arrogance.

5 point plan because we're not allowed mention what you want to bring Dublin hurling to the next level on this thread. You want the game to be developed in Dublin at all costs due to myopic reasoning.

To conclude, in my opinion, per playing population, you don't produce as many natural hurlers as smaller counties with a fraction of the resources you have. Even Rushie is a big physical hurler, fine, loads of them everywhere, but he's not a Richie Power, John O'Dwyer, John McGrath, Joe Deane. More a Johnny Glynn Galway. You'd never hear Rush is a great stickman, John Fenton he ain't. Dotsy was a fine hurler. You have had them but not enough.

PTH2009 · 19-07-2021 6:11pm

Semple Stadium not the most successful place for Galway and hopefully that tradition counties next Saturday

God help Waterford if Galway do find form

External Association · 19-07-2021 6:14pm

P.s. If Brian Cody's KK beat Warwickshire 20-45 tomorrow he'd say it was a tough match and Warickshire really put them 'to the pin of their collar'.

SqueakyKneecap · 19-07-2021 6:16pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633775#Comment_117633775

Wouldn't go that far. They've won last last 4 championship games there with basically the currently panel bar a few names.

RMAOK · 19-07-2021 6:24pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633775#Comment_117633775

If Galway do find form, and that's a big if imo, they probably should win. But I feel, as a Galway man, it might just be a stay of execution. There's a lot of passengers in that squad that have had more than enough chances and yet haven't delivered consistently since 2017. It actually wouldn't surprise me if canning calls it a day after this year tbh.

A clear out, like what happened after 2011, is on the cards I feel.

gormdubhgorm · 19-07-2021 6:27pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633752#Comment_117633752

You mention physique which goes with your lazy stereotyping of Dublin hurlers, before where you implied that they had no 'natural hurlers'. But at least you went from no natural hurlers to some natural hurlers. At least you softened on that a bit.

Fair point about organisation, that is a point well made in fairness.

The senior county success at Dublin receded because there were a number of dual stars who jumped ship to football simple as that. Also the cycle of that group got old that did play senior level, they had a number of 'imports' who were not replaced with more imports.

Dublin hurling does not have the same depth of playing pool. The playing population for Dublin hurling is not going to big once the cream (normally dual stars) jump ship to football. Plus you don't really understand how those who stick with hurling are in a very niche small group in Dublin. It is not like elsewhere Ireland.

It is a cultural thing - a lack of hurling culture - that is improving slowly.

In reference to me using the term 'paroachical' I said that of the Munster championship. Because it is it is the heartbeat and crown jewel of the AI championship. That is beyond question surely? The paraochical element is played up. That is a cultural thing. - built over many generations.

I don't want Dublin to succeed at all costs with some myopic view as you imply. I want hurling to grow and be competitive. It just happens that Dublin have the largest untapped potential, as you yourself seem to agree on. That Dublin do not produce enough 'hurlers'. But I have have stated the reasons why.

External Association · 19-07-2021 8:37pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633844#Comment_117633844

Why not develop hurling in Meath, a fine traditional area as a base, sizeable population, same with Kildare. Also further development in Belfast?

Dublin are in a good position, regular division 1 side. Surely we want more counties playing McCarthy cup rather than trying to turn Dublin into a super power? That experiment with football has been to the detriment of football nationally.

Why are Dublin so special above other counties that their hurlers should receive special attention.

I'm sorry but your coming across as having nothing to say but Dublin, Dublin, Dublin. Bar you and me no-one is engaging. That shows the complete disinterest in the topic.

I tried to ask you who you'd fancy between Cork and Clare. No reply bar Dublin Dublin Dublin.

You have the resources to manage your county hurling teams. And I will stick by my statement that per player population you don't have as many natural stickmen as other counties. My opinion and I'll stand by it. Your comments about hurling needing Dublin are quite frankly ridiculous.

External Association · 19-07-2021 8:48pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633207#Comment_117633207

Cheddar didn't play defensive hurling against Antrim or Waterford 🤣

In both Leinster's in 1985, football and hurling. Not bad for a county of 50,000 population at the time. If you knew anything about Laois hurling you'd know we were nip and tuck to make the breakthrough in the 1980s and 1990s in hurling. A lot of 2 and 3 point losses to Offaly and KK. Joe Dollars, John Taylor, Bill Maher, Niall Rigney etc all excellent hurlers.

Portlaoise and Camross often were at war, our county teams were up and down as a result. But when we were organised we could hurl.

breezy1985 · 19-07-2021 9:01pm

On the subject of attitudes to hurling in most counties I notice a very very common trend on here and on Hoganstand.

Football fans almost always call a thread "All Ireland 2020" "U20 AI 2021" "Leinster Championship 2019" with no mention of the code

Whereas hurling fans always start with "All Ireland hurling 2021" etc.

The point is it's people in the counties of the "smaller" hurling counties that act like their own hurling teams don't exist

Mad about baa baas · 19-07-2021 9:10pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117634467#Comment_117634467

I always remember a teacher in st kierans college years ago saying Gaelic football is for chaps that dont have the skill for soccer and are too cowardly to hurl..

He was a well known cork man that held a record as being sent off in a minor all Ireland before throw in..

External Association · 19-07-2021 9:11pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117634467#Comment_117634467

Some terrible attitudes to hurling in counties like Meath, that McEntee current manager, 'i'd burn every hurl in Meath'. The irony that for most (4) of their football all Irelands they turned to a hurling man.

threeball · 19-07-2021 9:13pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117633829#Comment_117633829

I'd be very surprised if Galway don't come out to lay down a marker the next day. They know they made a balls of the Dublin game and it'll be stewing for the last 3 weeks. I don't agree on the passengers assessment either. There's a very strong panel there and possibly the most talented front 6 we've had in living memory. How confident would you be of Canning missing those goal chances if they occur again next Saturday. Bad day at the office and still the biggest threat to Limerick.

breezy1985 · 19-07-2021 9:16pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117634500#Comment_117634500

Kilkenny is the exception to the rule I suppose (even though the teacher was from Cork). The attitude to football there is a similar disgrace and even when we have a well graded league and a secondary championship they throw their noses up at football

External Association · 19-07-2021 10:02pm

I suppose Christy Ring summed up hurling snobbery with his remark 'football is a game for failed hurlers'. My 11 year old nephew thinks he's really smart stating this. It annoys me when I can't get him to appreciate both games. But his daddy is a hurling ultra and the chap worships him at present.

Sheep breeder · 20-07-2021 12:33am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632958#Comment_117632958

Agree with this about hurling is played in weaker counties for the love of the game and every kid looks forward to making his senior club team and then to make his county team. In most counties there are players well fit to make Dublin team but they play for the love of the game in there own county. Not to many years ago culla in Dublin had players drafted in from Wicklow to help them win a county title before money took over. Look at Keith Higgins in Mayo that was a gifted hurler went back to play for his county on retirement from football due to his love of hurling. Played junior hurling in limerick many years ago and most games you had long retired aged county players playing for the love of the game, the great C Carey was recently playing for the well.

Swamp_Cat · 20-07-2021 1:08am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628178#Comment_117628178

It's terrible. fixing things that aren't broke. Kinda like the GAA 😉

Swamp_Cat · 20-07-2021 1:08am

Accidental duplicate.

Swamp_Cat · 20-07-2021 1:54pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628587#Comment_117628587

An IC team out of gas after 37+/- minutes. Give me a break. Blame the "heat" all you like but top players who take time off often play in 35-40+ temps in the states, Aus, M.E. seem to survive. Granted the skill level is nowhere near championship IC but out on their feet after 37 or so minutes( plus water break) ? Not buying it one bit.

Otherwise I enjoy your insightful comments

gormdubhgorm · 20-07-2021 2:06pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117634467#Comment_117634467

Probably a large element of truth to that to be honest. There is even very limited cross-over with codes even from those who are supposed to be 'dual counties'.

Dublin has a core support of 2000/3000 ish which goes to league games and the whole lot (open to correction on that - but that is what I would estimate it as). Hurling is still a very niche taste in Dublin

Cork are a really funny GAA county in that their football team could even win a surprise football AI like in 2010 (and have a super squad) but the vibe seemed it was viewed as 'not great season' in Cork GAA because the hurlers did not achieve what was expected. I remember thinking it was gas the way they seemed to look at it. Plus the Cork hurling following definitely seems larger, louder, and more expectant than the football following would be in general.

Galway are another funny one they 'expect' in the hurling, but are more 'hopeful' in football. The football crowds only appear if they think they will be successful. They seem to have a good system in Galway though, that a fella like Daithi Burke can hurl for Turlough and go drive a few miles and play football for Corofin.

Swamp_Cat · 20-07-2021 2:24pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117629323#Comment_117629323

Come on Rosita. For such an active poster & one who is far from clueless I'm shocked by that admission. Even a late to the party yank like myself knows who LH is. She is/was great.

Maybe you are younger than I've assumed. I believe the Sunday Game 40yr Documentary featured a bit about her.

Not a dig at you. Enjoy your posts, just surprised.

breezy1985 · 20-07-2021 2:31pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117637226#Comment_117637226

In a lot of counties the support is regional. Both Limerick and Clare have their support in the west of the county and I think Cork is the same. I have heard that some of that is down to the monumental task of trying to hurl on the Atlantic edge but don't know if it's actually true.

I have also heard that Galway as a hurling county is really only post 1970s and most people would have been football first other than the diehards

HoliyMoliy · 20-07-2021 2:44pm

Massive second half performance by Limerick. Provided they keep their discipline they are going to be very hard to stop.

Frankie Machine · 20-07-2021 3:22pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632895#Comment_117632895

I think it's slightly wrong-headed to view hurling as 'Munster-centric', though I see where you're coming from.

I would tend to see it differently, and I ignore provincial boundaries to some extent.

Therefore I see the hurling heartland more as encompassing -

East Limerick, East Clare, East Cork, East Waterford, and North Tipperary (sort of).

Parts of Offaly, parts of Wexford.

All of Kilkenny, thanks be to God.

So probably parochial, yes, in the sense of a kind of physical contiguity to which Dublin and Antrim are outliers.

But then I wouldn't be one for feeding the Munster superiority thing. Ever.

😃

ATR72 · 20-07-2021 9:31pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117637463#Comment_117637463

It is. West Limerick is a football stronghold. Adare has won several senior titles. I have family who played for Athea which is still football only as far as I'm aware. Another poster mentioned Cork folk not viewing a season success if they haven't won anything in hurling but I don't think this would be the view held by those from Bantry or Beara. Same for west Galway.

conor05 · 20-07-2021 10:59pm

One thing I will say about Kerry County Board is that they treat their hurlers very well for such a strong football county.

It wasn’t too long ago Kerry were 1a in Division football and 1b in the hurling.

Kerry has a lot of talented hurlers, the problem is they are usually good footballers too and can drift away to the big ball after minor.

The hotbed of hurling in the North Kerry villages will always keep the hurling flame burning brightly though.

Rosita · 20-07-2021 11:51pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117637407#Comment_117637407

I don't get the assumed connection between being an active poster and knowing or having heard of someone who according to Wikipedia was a Sunday Game analyst long before I was born. I'd have some historical knowledge of hurlers not of analysts. I'm sure as you say she was "great". I'm not disputing that nor is me not being familiar with her any indictment or meant to be any indictment of her. That's the last I'll say on this.

Swamp_Cat · 21-07-2021 12:38pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117639584#Comment_117639584

Apologies. I didn't mean to sound condescending. I can se I came across as a bit of a dxxx. It wasn't my intention at all. I enjoy your perspective/posts & was just surprised. I assumed you were older than you likely are(something I find myself doing as I get older). But thinking about it I guess you're right, being an active poster doesn't mean you know, or care to know, every aspect or character in the history of the GAA. Who would ;-) All the best.

Rosita · 21-07-2021 2:11pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117641218#Comment_117641218

Lovely gracious reply. Thanks.

dirkmeister · 21-07-2021 2:41pm

Did anyone else who was at a match over the weekend have trouble with the yellow ball?

Every person in our pod at the Leinster final couldn’t see the ball when it was up in the air.

In the end I just stopped trying to follow the ball and just looked at the players to see where they were running.

PTH2009 · 21-07-2021 3:47pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117642039#Comment_117642039

no issues with it at the weekend, how come the white ball is used in underage games ?

No word on tickets for the weekends qualifier games yet, hoping to pick some up for the Waterford vs Galway game (someone on the Waterford forum said 3500 tickets per county allocated)

zetecescort · 21-07-2021 9:08pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117642478#Comment_117642478

I know Cork GAA tweeted that there would be no general sale of tickets for the Clare game, available through clubs only

PTH2009 · 21-07-2021 9:34pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117643923#Comment_117643923

Saw a tweet saying only 500 allowed into the Waterford vs Galway game in Thurles

Outrageous when you think you were able into nowlan park last weekend which is a smaller stadium than Thurles and GG

breezy1985 · 21-07-2021 9:44pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117644028#Comment_117644028

A tweet from who ?

breezy1985 · 21-07-2021 9:46pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117642039#Comment_117642039

Up in the air is where the yellow sliotar excels. I'm pretty sure you and your pod are talking crap cause you don't like change

PTH2009 · 21-07-2021 9:54pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40342643.html

Rosita · 21-07-2021 10:01pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117644086#Comment_117644086

Why alter the topic from the specific issue of the ball to the abstract concept of change? Why not actually debate why (if you think so) the yellow ball is better? Mooting the idea of' change' as a hobby or lifestyle choice is a bluff.

breezy1985 · 21-07-2021 10:31pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117644182#Comment_117644182

Ok it's simple the yellow flour ball is better in the air. It contrasts better than white with the sky and clouds. Tennis learned this back in the 70s and it also contrasts better with the crowd.

I don't believe anyone who says otherwise