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"Ireland cannot be part of current global tax reform deal" - Donohoe

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Why the "ffs"/"other countries being cross with us" general sneers when factoring opinion of other countries into decision on this is raised? I though Ireland (i.e. the govt.) considers response of other countries to what we do here, not just opinions of MNCs and their CEOs and investors? Am I wrong about that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I would like the opinion of our neighbours to be that we are upfront and that we will try to protect our interests in a civil way. Not agreeing to do something against your interests is not an aggressive move it is merely defensive. It would be worse if we were seen as a country that merely measured the direction of the wind and followed for fear of upsetting others. Or worse still went along with it only to simultaneously undermine it with other state aid schemes. At least it is the honest approach which in the long run might be better for international relations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You're aware that link actually burnishes my point and makes yours look stupid?

    Take a look at the right hand column. Those are cutting edge Israeli founded companies, by Israeli scientists, attracting billions in VC from international investors with genuinely locally generated IP. Like I said from post one.

    The situation in Ireland is the complete opposite. MNCs direct the R&D and park it in their in-house centres fly in the scientists for the most part and book the IP here as it's tax efficient. There is no incubator system like Israel and no spill-over effect into indigenous innovation.

    For the third time, stop trying to pretend you know something you don't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Why in the hell would we even consider what other countries think about our tax rates? Did we ever pressured any of them about their tax policies?

    We absolutely do have to consider MNCs operating here, they are part of Irish economy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Again, I still don't see why attracting FDI and domestic innovation are mutually exclusive. Surely the lack of domestic innovation, if that is an issue, is completely orthogonal to our corporate tax rate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,595 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    su generis?

    or sui generis?

    Which?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    As pointed out by Bob Shapiro, our FDI policy has been viewed by policymakers for a long time as the end of the funnel and the IDA, Dep. of Business and Innovation, Finance etc clap themselves on the back once an MNC plonks operations here and collect the tax revenue. Other countries (Israel being a prime example, but there are others, Switzerland, Sweden) use it as a springboard to generate a virtuous circle of indigenous innovation and a healthy VC network. And it has been a government strategy in those countries to do so. We've failed abjectly on that point. Our economic policy has been to get the MNCs to park here, and next to nothing beyond that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Right, so we need to work on funding r&d and helping domestic startups. But why increase corporation tax?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    That ship has sailed. We already have to and it's happening completely out of our control.

    My point from my first contribution was that we should have played ball a long time ago. For those that were paying attention, we were the poster boys for this activity, in public and private and we did nothing to help ourselves. Some sort of reckoning day was coming for about a decade and at all times we refused to budge on CT. Once again, we were the lightning rod and we were and are at the centre of the OECD wagon on this matter. We could have headed this at the pass, but successive governments refused to. We made the situation worse for ourselves. More powerful countries negotiated around us, and now we're one of the last countries stamping our feet as our one variable economic model is taken from us.

    None of this was very clever. A percentage or percentage and a half point rise could have generated significant good will in the EU about 5 or 6 years back. The simplified history of how we got here is: Ireland thumbed it's nose to the EU and said "you can't touch us", which naturally p*ssed off our European partners so the process was deliberately moved to the OECD forum to checkmate us (not just us, but we were and are the most prominent target).

    It was not very clever. And we did it to ourselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    What is going on is not just (or mainly?) about specific rate (how many of the MNCs actually pay even our 12.5 % on their global profits I wonder)? As for question about "why in the hell would we even consider what other countries think about our tax policies", well I suppose it's just another result of globalisation. If MNCs are very mobile & we or other countries want to compete on tax rules + try and lure these MNCs to base here or shift assets here and that harms other countries, they are not just going to sit and take it lying down forever. The government engaged in OECD process for many years. Why didn't they just refuse to consider other countries opinions right from the start? I'm not so cynical that I believe that was entirely in bad faith + they see a benefit to Ireland from international co-operation vs just saying its our perogative and we don't care what anyone else thinks! If process collapses (as govt. seem to be holding out for), it is going to become every man for himself given how important this issue now appears to be to several powerful countries (incl. the US) and I don't think Ireland will come out of that well in the end.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Ireland effective corporate tax rate its about 12.4 so no problem here, most pay the full rate.

    I simply can't understand the suport some of you are giving to something that is guaranteed to hurt Irish economy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    Bitterness it comes down to. You see it everywhere. People have got an education and have a good job, earning money etc and people just can't stand it. Look across the internet and you see them on all social media. Some people would prefer everyone back to the 70/80 when nobody had any money and anyone who wanted a career left home after school to go anywhere in the World for a job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Yeah that's it. Man alive some people do everything they can to miss the point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    12.5 is absolutely fine if we were they only country in the world and we could get away with it forever, and if you think that being the cheapest broad in the dancehall pays off long term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Even though Ireland ranks 15th in the world for innovation....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    For my own part the govt.'s/Ireland's kowtowing to these companies so much and facilitating them in paying less tax (and in other areas too) never sat well with me given I've left wing political views (when it comes to the economy).

    I do understand it though & how it has benefitted the country over the last few decades, and could definitely see logic of why they opposed it at EU level.

    I just think momentum internationally has now approached the point where opposing is more likely to harm the country than provide any benefit(s), and probably won't be able to stop the inevitable anyway.

    edit: Was doubful of that 12.4 % figure but found this article giving an effective rate of 12 %.

    I suppose once the mechanisms that Apple etc. were using were closed (that finished this year or last year I think??) the effective/real rate increased towards the 12.5 %.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You can stay here all day trying in vain to make out that Ireland comes anywhere near to Israel for R&D and an indigenous start-up system. You've been spoonfed how MNCs are pretty much the only game in town for R&D in Ireland.

    Take a look at how the 'innovation' metric is arrived at then have a ponder.

    Israel (and many other countries) are streets ahead of Ireland for indigenous IP, R&D, VC and start-up culture - in relative and absolute terms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭Cordell


    We're not the cheapest broad. But there are indeed broads that are more expensive but also old and fat that are jealous on our success.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,110 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    "A percentage or percentage and a half could have generated good will".

    Remarkable revisionism. I think we can chalk that one up there with the previous suggestion that all Ireland needed to do was use it's imagination a bit more.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Israel is 13th in the world in the Innovation ranking, Ireland is 15th in the world in the innovation ranking. Not near as much as a gap as you make out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,559 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I know it does t suit Ireland to implement these rules because Ireland allownnthese companies to pretend they made these profits in Ireland to avoid tax in the counties where they actually made the money. But the notion that we have a moral leg to stand on is ludicrous. We're just making up rules to suit ourselves and we would be furious if we were being diddled out of tax money because someone else was running a scheme that funneled tax from Irish corporations to other countries and everyone else in Ireland had to make up the difference through higher tax.


    If that was the the case then we'd understand what's wrong with the system.


    Unfortunately, ireland is benefiting from being totally in the wrong and it's difficult to see ourselves as being the bad guy. But in this case, we are dragging everyone down. And the wordd would benefit from a better tax regime- but it would cost ireland in the short term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You've been spoonfed as to how those rankings are arrived at.

    The R&D and IP booked in Ireland is overwhelmingly multinational driven (particularly in value terms). Indigenous R&D is extremely low intensity and low value.

    Israel is littered with high-value indigenous IP generating companies that attract billions of international VC that frequently list on the NASDAQ. Anyone involved in this world knows there is a massive gap and Ireland isn't at the races on this front.

    If the low-resolution rankings that don't discern between IP being booked by MNCs for tax purposes and genuine indigenous cutting edge R&D give you comfort - so be it. Might make for good copy on a glossy IDA brochure but it's essentially meaningless. A little project for you: do a little research on how many Israeli tech companies are NASDAQ listed and how many Irish companies are listed and come back to me. In your own time...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,186 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Or how clever tax arrangements benefited Ireland, and why Ireland should be careful about removing the last standing ones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The second part of the sentence is an editorialization on your part, and is not reflected in the video.

    (Not even expressing an opinion on the ins and outs of it, it's not there)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭greenfield21



    Dems Budget Resolution Agreement framework/blueprint has in it...

    "Corporate and international tax reform"

    Will be interesting to see the full bill in a few weeks time. I believe this will relate to pillar 2 and will need rep support for treaty changes pillar 1. I think it has passed a few minutes ago, now onto debate and then committees for drafting.



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  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,653 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    A public consultation will be launched by the minister shortly.

    When the 10% IFSC arrangements became unacceptable 2 decades ago Ireland introduced the current across the board 12.5% rate which dealt with the then EU State Aid investigation. Increasing the standard rate to 15%, if combined with a couple of other corporate-friendly proposals I think the overall corporate tax take in Ireland is likely to stabilise possibly at a higher amount than is currently raised.

    Equally Ireland managed to gain praise for eliminating the "Double-Irish" structure a few years ago, but then gave companies the opportunity to get some new structures in place which could continue to benefit from these arrangements for another 5 years.

    One thing Ireland is good at is paying lip-service to such external pressures while managing to still come out smelling of roses. I would not discount a similar outcome this time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭greenfield21


    Manchin won't support the reconciliation bill, it will never get through the senate now. Can Pascal breath a sigh of relief?


    https://twitter.com/Sen_JoeManchin/status/1433521005482364936



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