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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I invested an amount I could afford to lose, fairly early, so the volatility has been amusing. By far and away the best performing investment I have ever made, on paper, as I won't contemplate cashing out until I no longer have a 33% CGT haircut to contemplate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Keynsian economics died a while ago, yet the world doesn't seem perturbed, and many people still cling to the idea it's alive and well. It would be great if the piper doesn't one day ask to be paid, but I have my doubts. Not to worry, there's a record amount of savings in Irish bank accounts for the goevernment to give a Cyprus style haircut to when things get awkward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    RTB commissioned Amarach to carry out detailed reports on the rental sector, looking at tenants, agents, small, medium and large landlords. It was published recently;

    Here is the summary report; https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_Research_Summary_Report_July_2021.pdf

    Some snippets;

    Tenants Perspective

    Summary Findings

    Two thirds are in employment.

    72% of tenants rent a house (40% rent a semi-detached house).

    81% are renting for more than a year,

    40% for 5 or more years.

    On average rent equals 36% of the renter’s after tax income (41% in Great Dublin Area).

    57% of tenants were born in the Republic of Ireland, 24% in the EU or UK.

    The average tenant has been renting for 5 years.

    53% of tenants have been renting for 3 or less years (See table one).

    The average tenant has been renting in their current property for 3.8 years.

    67% of tenants have been renting in their current property for 3 or less years.

    Future Plans

    34% of renters expect to be owner occupiers in five years’ time.

    50% expect to be owner occupiers in ten years’ time.

    36% expect to still be renting in ten years’ time.

    9% are currently on a waiting list for a local authority or Approved Housing Body.

    Benefits of Owning

    43% of renters intending to buy expect it would reduce their monthly housing costs.

    31% expect housing costs would remain the same if they bought.

    7% think their monthly housing costs would go up if they bought.

    Small Landlords Perspective (1-2 properties)

    There is an upward trend in rents with 34% of properties receiving higher rents now than the initial rate when the tenancy began, while 42% of properties have seen rent set higher when last let to a new tenant. The main motivation for increasing rent (for more than half, 56%, of those with two properties) is to ensure that rents are in-line with market rents in the local area. However, one in four small landlords set below market rents to keep them at a level their tenants can afford to pay (as well as to hold onto tenants they are happy with). Indeed, one in five renters in the tenants survey say their rent is lower than similar properties in the area they live in. Also, 27% of small landlords have only ever had one tenancy/the same tenant in their rental properties. 

    Motivations

    The majority – (57%) – of small landlords see their rental properties as long term investments for rental income, while 40% also consider their property to be an investment for long term capital growth. That said, some 44% of small landlords say their pre-tax income is the same or less than their property related costs (including any mortgage payments, maintenance costs, agent fees etc.). Similar to larger landlords, smaller landlords are weighing up their options when it comes to the future. In total, 10% think it likely they will sell their rental properties in the next five years, the majority (61%) think it unlikely. For most of those expecting to sell, the main motivation is that they no longer wish to be a landlord (for 45% of those intending to exit), or it simply isn’t profitable anymore (30%). On the other hand, small landlords are highly unlikely to buy another property to let out – just 2% think it likely in the next five years. 

    Large Landlords Perspective (100+ properties)

    Impact of Rent Pressure Zones

    Some large landlords also said that the presence of RPZ rules has put a floor underneath the rental market and argue that rents might have fallen further in the pandemic if the rules had been different. For those with older properties (or conversions) in their portfolio, there is an argument that RPZs have disincentivised investment in refurbishment. Given that all come from a professional services background and are dealing with regulated entities for funding, they are comfortable dealing with the regulatory environment. But they do believe that the regulatory environment is driving smaller landlords from the market and in a sense, this is part of the opportunity that they are seeking to capitalise on. 

    Impact of Covid

    The pandemic has had an impact on large landlords. It has slowed down activity, particularly because many are engaged in new developments. It has had a particular impact within the canals in Dublin. It has also changed the viewing of properties, with viewing as the next to final stage rather than earlier. While some saw departures from tenancies, the scale and extent of this appeared to be relatively limited. They did have some (but not many) requests for rent reductions, but they appear to be far more limited than might have been anticipated at the start of the crisis. The research suggests that the pandemic has led to a softening of the market, in rent levels and demand terms. Given the absence of financial pressures, many large landlords suggested a willingness to live with higher vacancy levels for the moment to see how the market responds, rather than let tenancies at a lower rent, with long term consequences under RPZ rules.

    Outlook

    According to the large landlords interviewed for the research, the main challenges in the future will be:

    1. If investment returns decline. If rental levels decline then the return on investment will decline and investment funds may seek to go elsewhere.
    2. If alternative investments generate a return. Interest rates and returns on bonds remain low currently. But they will rise at some stage and then they may present a viable alternative.
    3. Other regulatory changes - e.g. changing the rules around bulk buying of properties - may result in it becoming more difficult to grow the size of property portfolios.

    Some do hope that others might exit the marketplace, creating an opportunity for them to acquire comparable assets to extend their business scale. There are few other ways to get a 4% to 6% annual return. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    We're at greater risk than Italy. We're the most indebted per capita in the EU and are completely dependent on multinationals and FDI. Biden's 15% is on the horizon.

    The only country in the EU that got a debt reduction in the last recession was Greece. We somehow avoided getting help by our eminent mandarins. We're poised very nicely to be the next Greece.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nobody care about it and nobody will !

    The main targets are profit for government support bussiness groups

    And votes on next elections for politicians

    Couple weeks ago mister Leo and his friend bought house for 800K.Mister Leo as taoiseach earned

    Since 2013, the Taoiseach's annual salary is €185,350. It was cut from €214,187 to €200,000 when Enda Kenny took office, before being cut further to €185,350 under the Haddington Road Agreement in 2013.

    As minister of enterprise no less includes "bonuses".

    You think hi and his friends and collegues from parlament and government worry about the debt ? They does not give a ,...

    Money coming from USA investment groups and give job for Paddy "brickie" on site in Ireland ? What the problem ? Paddy has job if somebody cant buy house built by Paddy that is not a Paddy and government problem !

    This country need jobs and taxes ! Not houses owners on social welfare !



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Now guys some erotic fantasies !

    Lets imagine government put ban on foreign investment groups on property market

    Cap on renting market as no more 1000 euros for 3 beds in Dublin per month and no more than 3 properties for rent to one landlord

    And minimal wage 6 euros per hour with 240 billions debt !

    That would be some fun is not ?

    I could imagine some of your faces when your property price from 600K could go down to 150K !

    And unemployment rate would be the 20 per cent ? We all remember those times with 16 is not ?

    So what about that lads ?

    Will you still not happy about foreign investment in Ireland ? And what government do ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭TheSheriff


    I still don't see your point.

    If there is a house you want & can afford now, why would you hold off 2-5 years as recommended?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Your big assumption is that there's a house that someone wants which they can afford out there right now - your advice is always applicable "if there's a house you want and can afford now go for it". My point is that there almost certainly is not such a house in the current market with supply at the lowest it's been since 2011! People are in a frenzy with buying that they are compromising on what they actually want and where they want it because of the FOMO they have. I don't know how you could defend the current environment for buyers, it's objectively an absolute sh*tshow. Especially if it involves invoking maximum permitted borrowing and the mortgage rate is only fixed for something like 5 years. A 1% interest rate rise on a 200,000 mortgage would be an extra 2,000 per year to be paid.

    Post edited by Amadan Dubh on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because waiting you are saving

    I work at 20K per year for example and I saved 100K per 5 years

    If I will wait 2 years I will save 140K per 7 years and buying house for 80K I will save 3 years of life spending only 2.

    Even spending 8K per year for rent I will still saving a year of life.

    Do you know how is life on mortgage ? Its even worst then pay rent.

    Because if you cant pay rent you simply emigrating

    If you cant pay mortgage this will be more difficult



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    A stated policy of People Before Profit is to ban corporates from the property market.

    After the 2020 GE election when SF ended up with the most votes Irish homebuilders Glenveagh Properties PLC and Cairn Homes PLC saw their shares fall by 11.3% and 8.1%, respectively, Irish Residential Properties REIT PLC's shares dropped by 8.5% and Hibernia REIT PLC fell 7.2%.

    These two parties combined have 38.4% and 35.6% of the votes of the 18-24 and 25-34 year olds respectively. It is not crazy to expect that SF could be in government in the next 4 years with a coalition which includes PBP and the scenario with international capital getting spooked could manifest. There won't be any QE to support the economy, like with covid, just because we elect some lefties!



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    SF will have some success on market just because people saved some money due Covid

    When FG could not run property market from same point with same ammount of savings

    Well,how your SF gonna create money flow to building sites when 50 per cent cant afford get mortgage?

    Shares been overpriced on very start please dont tell me they worth anything when USA investing funds supporting them value on Irish market

    Do you try tell us that politicians as SF worry about housing problem ? Nobody care about it if you still did not understand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 983 ✭✭✭greenfield21


    The whole issues around tax, Brexit and the ending of qe and rising interest rates seem to have never materialise to give a fall in prices. So Any significant price decrease will never happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    These are all macro factors that are far from being settled.

    QE is still in over drive, with a quarter of all dollars printed in 2020 alone, while interest rates are rooted to the floor. See some tapering mixed with interest rate rises and then we will see how stable the economies of the US and Europe are, but to think the current scenario represents stability is to profess that unlimited QE and zero interest rates is a valid way to run economies!

    Brexit has only just happened in the last few months, the UK economy is now directly in competition with the EU rather than being a part of it.

    OECD and EU digital/corporate tax reforms are only at the initial agreement stages but it's hard to see how it is settled that they will or won't have any impact on us. However, 50% of our corporate tax take and 10% of Revenue's entire tax take comes from 10 companies some of whom somehow pay effective tax rates of 0% notwithstanding this - I'm not sure how this is sustainable; our arguably tax haven status.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Don’t think anyone thinks QE and negative rates is the ideal way to run an economy but it is no different to cutting base rate which has been done for the past 40 years. The effect of both has the same consequences on the housing market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭Timing belt




  • Registered Users Posts: 6 whaccawhacca


    It feels like prices are spiralling. Estate agents i've spoken with are reluctant to tell me what the exact sale agreed prices are on particular properties, but they have been in in excess of 15% over asking at least.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6 whaccawhacca




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Source: BIS (https://stats.bis.org/statx/srs/table/h1)

    The above table shows the Nominal residential property prices as published on the BIS website. Just said I would share as it shows that Ireland is not an outlier with it's property prices rises.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    But it's easy for someone to find outlier for Ireland for one or other direction, if taken extremes of 2007 or 2012.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭accensi0n




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,108 ✭✭✭TheSheriff


    And if prices go up further and don't come down?


    You lose out, big time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,475 ✭✭✭Underground


    I remember a bit of uproar about Blackrock buying up second hand homes in US at mad prices, between 20% and 50% above asking.

    Not long after, that Crazyhouseprices guy on Twitter reported that an unnamed investment fund pulled out of buying two second hand homes in Ballyfermot because of the increase in stamp duty.


    It was unverified and it sounded a bit mad to me but has anyone heard of investment funds in the market for second hand homes in Ireland?


    I'm all for free market capitalism but this is just not right in my view.


    Not really expecting a response since nobody uses Boards anymore because of this dogsh*t new site.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Yes, just off Merrion Square a fund had been trying to buy up the owner occupier apartments in a pretty old building. Not the Northumberland but around where Mamma Mia Italian is. Gone quiet the last few months however.


    In the IT letters today we have Alan Shatter writing about the long term social housing leases being entered into;

    Sir,

    Observing politics from the outside, there are occasions when Government policy appears to me to be surprising and to make no sense. I then wonder am I missing something as I am no longer on the inside track.

    The latest surprise was a relatively recent Irish Times report on local authorities renting for 25 years approximately 1,000 apartments from investment funds to be allocated to local authority tenants. I could not fathom why any local authority would make payments over 25 years for homes in residential blocks it would never own instead of simply borrowing the funds required and building local authority-owned apartments. I also could not fathom the economic sense in a Government facilitating any such arrangement.

    So I welcome Patrick Honohan’s article in Saturday’s Irish Times (“Ireland’s foot dragging on tax reform could prove costly”, Opinion & Analysis, July 17th), in which he states that as a result of this “surprising” arrangement “local authorities will be long burdened for lease payments far in excess of the interest rates at which the capital cost of the residential blocks could have been covered”. It is good to learn that there are others beyond the world of political outrage who find surprising and cannot make economic sense of aspects of the Government’s housing policy. – Yours, etc,

    ALAN SHATTER,

    (Former minister for justice,

    equality and defence),

    Dublin 16.

    There was a good letter from someone who I think acts for a management company of a few small landlord properties as we had a man of the same name from Howth as our agent at one point (excellent relationship with him), writing about the RTB Amárach report published recently;

    Sir, – Minister for Housing Darragh O’Brien would be well advised to examine closely the findings of the Residential Tenancies Board’s rental sector survey, the results of which were released during this week. This is one of the largest and most comprehensive studies carried out in the rental market, and it puts to bed many of the fallacies regularly put forward on this sector. At last it provides policymakers with hard evidence provided by a very large sample of tenants and landlords.

    What does it show? Tenant satisfaction levels are amazingly high, with only 3 per cent dissatisfied with their rental experience.

    A total of 94 per cent had no difficulty in paying their rent, while only 25 per cent had had a rent increase during their tenancy.

    However, the situation with landlords and the supply side is quite serious. In the past five years, there has been a reduction of 25,000 in the number of properties for rental. And the survey indicates that 26 per cent of landlords with five or less units are likely to sell within the next five years, quoting an unprofitable sector, high taxes, the regulatory environment and closeness to retirement.

    Worryingly, these landlords provide 72 per cent of national rented properties. Regrettably, Government policy has been to force out home providers in this sector, which mainly supplies the affordable end of the rental market, while providing tax and other incentives to the large international funds that have tended to generally supply at excessively high rents.

    We have a supply problem and basic economics suggests that policy should be designed to attract more suppliers than to force existing suppliers out of the market.

    The Minister should be aware that bad policy interventions in a market have bad outcomes. – Yours, etc,

    DES GILROY,

    Howth,

    When the IT letters pages are persistently and unanimously attacking the government's catastrophic failure on housing, something is going to give as there is little to no support for the current road of consistent price and rent increases with muted supply.

    Post edited by Amadan Dubh on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭jay0109


    I know of one house close to me in Sth Dublin that was bought by a vulture fund (900k region). They have an Eastern European lad managing it and he's around it a lot these days as builders are in modernising it. He told a neighbour there that he is the Fund's concierge/repair man for that post code and that they have several houses bought up in the past 2 years in the area including another one on the same road that the neighbour wasn't aware was owned by them either (neither house had been advertised for sale).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭SmokyMo


    I know few people who s sole job is to go around Dublin and put together a portfolio of properties for a fund. Whether it is a house or if someone wants to sell a plot of land from their back garden. It is way more common than people realize.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I bought a house last year. And before I had even started doing it up to move into the agent who sold it to me contacted me and said an unnamed person was offering way, way more than i paid for it if i then sold it to them.

    So I did.

    House bought and sold without even moving in and a tidy profit made.

    I found out later that it was the council who bought it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    1.4 houses out of ever 10 sold are purchased by Non-Occupier Which would included government, Institutional investors. I would imagine that this would be higher in Dublin and lower in the rest of the country.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Where in the developed world are house prices going down? Rising house prices are a near global phenomenon. I get that you are hoping for a global financial crash/recession type event to crush prices, which is ok if you are young and very patient, as in willing to wait decades, but the long term trend for house prices, like stock markets, is one of increase. It's a very poor strategy because you are betting against a clear, near unfaltering trend.



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