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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Could you tell me where in the gfa that there is priority given to ensuring there are no checks on Irish border over checks on Irish Sea.

    did the eu

    1) sign up to an agreement that prioritised the north / south relationship over the east /west ?

    2) sign up to an agreement that contradicted the Act of Union without the consent of the NI people?

    that’s just two ways roi they through out gfa stuff



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,724 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We in the EU signed up to a deal which the UK were happy to sign. And your courts are happy that no previous agreements were broken or ignored.


    Are yous seriously suggesting that you are going to sue the EU for signing an agreement you wanted? 😁


    'Dey made me do it!' 😁

    Unionism truly is 'ating itself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,724 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Behind a paywall...but the headline could be another way of saying - marching you up to the top of a hill and back down again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I don't believe the idea of checks (either in the Irish Sea or the Irish border) are within the scope of the GFA; the concept of Brexit wasn't considered at the time. My comment on preventing checks on the island of Ireland was in reference to the explicit commitment of both the British government and the EU to avoiding this at the outset.

    Did the EU sign up to an agreement that prioritised N/S over E/W? I don't think they did, I think they treaded a very fine line between both and found a reasonable middle ground that respected the British red lines without giving so much of a free pass that they undermined the very concept of the EU.

    Did the EU sign up to an agreement that contradicted the Act of Union? Well firstly, the Act of Union is internal UK legislation, and the EU aren't party to it.


    Even putting the obvious nonsense of holding the EU responsible for your domestic legislation, according to your courts, no.....they signed up to an agreement that replaced parts of that Act in legal standing for Britain.


    Without the consent of the people of NI? As you were at pains to tell us previously, Brexit was a vote by the entirety of the UK, not the individual constituent parts. The massive mandate that the Tory Party received in the most recent election would suggest that UK wide support was there for it. If this isn't a sufficient mandate in the case of the precise nature of Brexit, then surely one must follow the logic back and apply the criticism in the correct place; Brexit itself which didn't have the consent of the people of NI.


    Even then, putting that aside, the Protocol does explicitly contain a consent mechanism for NI to decide whether to continue being subject to the Protocol, so swing and a miss again, you're 0/2 there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,724 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Unionism demonstrating once again the classic definition of 'cakeism'.

    Not to mention peak Brysonism - blame everybody but yourself for the situation you find yourself in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Worse than that; Downcow only a few short posts ago was telling us about their growing confidence that the NI Protocol is actually a massive win for Unionism and has put paid to any chance of Unification for a lifetime.....but a contrarian nature and a tendency to rail against anything with any sort of Irish connection means even if they fully believe it kills any chance of Unification, they still have to complain about it.

    The fable of the scorpion and the frog comes to mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,724 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The view from the 'mainland' downcow...yikes!

    Duped again: Irish unionists and the long, sorry history of Tory betrayal | Nick Cohen | The Guardian

    Can't figure out how to do the quote tags, here is part of it.

    'In 1921, Sir Edward Carson, leader of the Irish unionists, uttered words anyone tempted to fall for the charms of English Tories should learn by heart. “What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative party into power.”

    The Liberal Democrats have been saying much the same for five years. Working-class voters in red wall constituencies will be saying much the same in five years’ time. Today’s puppets, however, are Carson’s heirs in the Democratic Unionist party. Couldn’t they see what would happen? Did they not read the polls that showed English Tories would rather accept a united Ireland and independent Scotland than give up on Brexit? Boris Johnson’s wives, mistresses and colleagues all learned he would rat on them in the end. What made East Belfast Protestants think they would be different? Johnson duly ratted on them and dealt Ulster unionism a historic and perhaps terminal blow by partitioning the United Kingdom with a border in the Irish Sea.

    I am searching my bookshelves to find an example to compare with their bottomless stupidity. The Trojans and the horse: at least they thought the war was over. Napoleon and Moscow: at least he had grounds for thinking himself invincible. Their motives were comprehensible. The DUP’s reasons for first supporting Brexit, and then allying with the Tory right in wrecking Theresa May’s deal, which aimed to preserve the territorial integrity of the UK, are beyond ordinary comprehension. They lie in the irrational urge to destroy.'



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I have said consistently that there are protocols required between every nation, even every trading company. I even posted the definition of protocol.

    there is lots good about the new arrangements but there is also lots bad about them. I am very confident that we can keep the good and get rid of the vast majority of the bad.

    so don’t you guys worry about unionists. We will come out of this fine



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Given that there appears to be absolutely no appetite for the EU to change the protocol, how will you get rid of "the vast majority of the bad"?

    Can you give an example of what is "bad" and how would you make it "good" in a manner that would be acceptable to the EU (so no point rehashing the proposals London put forwards previously)?

    Also, do you really think the UK government want the protocol changed as this will simply make their Brexit look even worse for GB?


    As for unionists coming out of it fine, it is widely accepted that Brexit has brought a breakup of the union closer so I'd be concerned if I were you!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Wishful thinking about Ui closer. Ni will be a great place to invest.

    a method will be agreed whereby goods going to ni will be exempt from all this nonsense providing they are not going on to an EU destination. If Ireland were smart they would be campaigning to have themselves included in this agreement but they are too focused on their hate for the Uk to look at it rationally



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,724 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    😁 Classic Unionism...you were on here spouting the Protocol must go/we are gonna win in court, just you wait, line, now you see the writing on the wall and you modify the position.

    'Never Never Never.......... ah shure go on ahead'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You are at you nonsense again Francis I think you can look back and see consistently that I have been saying that the unfettered access to both Uk and eu is gold to us.

    I now just want to restablish simple passage for goods from gb to ni. There is not much else wrong.

    id rather the European court had no jurisdiction over ni but it’s no big deal and will benefit my community more in the future.

    I think you are mixing me up with Jamie Bryson. But I’ll let you into a secret. I don’t think Jamie wants rid of it all but is encouraging our politicians to say it must go as you don’t name your final position at the early stages of negotiations (or talking as EU are calling it)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Haha. From republicans who told us (well to many things to list) and ended up accepting self determination for ni, seats in a British devolved government, seats on policing board, etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,724 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You were spouting nonsense about a weekly protest in Dublin a couple of pages ago. What an utter fraud you are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think that proposal is on hold until people see what substance there is to Uk gov new position



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,724 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Republicans signed the deal (Your heroes didn't) and worked it. There is a lesson there if you care to climb down off the horse



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭54and56


    Brexit changed the constitutional relationship between NI/GB/EU without the express consent of the people of NI but you don't seem to have a problem with that as it was a UK democratic vote etc etc.

    The democratically elected UK government then enters into an agreement which also affects the constitutional relationship between NI/GB/EU without the express consent of the people of NI but on this occasion you have a problem as you don't like it.

    Really?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    So: hundreds of Protestants tortured to death by the IRA, thousands of medicines not available due to the Protocol. No proof of course.

    Anything else I've forgotten?

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    On the contrary, because Ireland is looking at it rationally, they can see that a campaign to have good going to Ireland - an EU destination - exempt provided that they are not going to an EU destination will result in precisely zero goods going to Ireland being exempt.

    And we'd be reluctant to take lessons in rational thinking from someone who wants goods going from GB to NI to be exempt, and who thinks that the way to achieve this is to organise protests in Dublin. A child of four can see that the decisions that cause your problem were all made in Westminster. Your concern is not Ireland's supposed "hate for the UK"; it's Westminster's disdain for Northern Ireland.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Who are you referring to as my heroes.

    just because the shiners and the ira seem to be your heros, we don’t all blindly follow.

    I was a uup supporter at the time and they were supporters of gfa



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I accept your PR machine (funded by bank robberies, etc) has been very effective in the last few decades, and that DUP unionism has been very bad for NI

    I doesn’t change reality though

    https://hutcheson.institute/the-northern-irish-should-have-no-fears-about-their-identity?fbclid=IwAR2wLUKppMfZC_8PRtSIYHx5FCyPbWFUw_TWtsd7WNqYAfu2Eh0K9o5lEU0



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You’re not really contradicting what Francie says, though, are you?

    Francie’s point is about how Northern Ireland is perceived in Great Britain. To reply with an article asserting that Northern Ireland unionists can be justifiably confident in their own identity is to miss the point. They can be confident as they like but, such is the disparity of wealth, power and influence, the health of the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends much more on how Great Britain feels about Northern Ireland than it does on how NI unionists feel about themselves.

    What current events show is that the Westminster establishment, pretty much on all sides, assigns at best a secondary value to the union with NI (and, for most of them, much less than that).  Copuled with the fact that, within NI, a large minority of the population assigns zero value to the union or indeed actively opposes it, this presents a challenge to NI unionists to which I think they can respond to in one of three ways:

    1. They can try to change attitudes in GB.

    2. They can accept that attitudes in GB are as they are, and work out what is the best course for NI and, in particular, for NI unionists, in light of that reality. (Which doesn’t rule out an attempt to change attitudes in GB, of course - indeed, it might point to that.)

    3. They can remain in denial.

    I have to say that, (a) responding to the challenge by trying to switch the conversation to one about NI unionism's self-regard, and (b) doing that by the frankly ludicrous tactic of presenting NI as a bastion of cosmopolitan liberal values, does look a lot like option 3 to me. And that’s very much of a piece with your previous tactic of championing demonstrations in Dublin as a tactic for trying to ameliorate the problems inflicted on NI by Westminster's choices. 

    You can do better, I’m sure. And, if you can’t, NI had better hope there are other unionists who can.  



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You are missing the point.

    thanks to the gfa NI has guaranteed self-determination. What some people in gb thinks of NI being part of the union is interesting but they have no input in any vote.

    we can argue with any Uk gov about eg Irish Sea checks and whether that is or is not compatible with the gfa. And we’ll continue to do that - that’s democracy.

    roi has a little influence in its EU membership club. We in the Uk don’t. They used that influence to talk up potential violence if there were any further checks on the island and are part of the insistence of petty implementation of the protocol. So if we can’t remove the bad bits of the protocol through internal Uk politics they it is entirely logical to encourage roi to move to a more honest position. I believe that should be entirely peaceful means, some others feel, like the IRA did, that it is legitimate to use violence.

    all seems logical and simple to me.

    Post edited by downcow on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It’s absurd to suggest that the UK has no influence when the NI Protocol exists in its present form because, and only because, the UK demanded it, and refused to ratify the WA without it. It’s absurd and dishonest to suggest that Ireland “talked up potential violence if there were any further checks on the island”; you should rather suggest - as we knew all along, and as Dominic Cummings has recently publicly confirmed - that Tory Brexiters deliberately ignored the obvious risks because they decided peace in Northern Ireland was unimportant, compared to the Holy Grail of Hard Brexit. Again, your inability to engage with this attitude and with its implications for the health of the union points to a deeply-entrenched avoidance tactic. it will not serve you well; denial of unpleasant realities never does.

    I find a shred of hope, though, in your admission that protests in Dublin are a response to the situation you find yourself in of being unable to influence “the bad bits of the protocol” through domestic UK politics. Follow that thought. Why is it, do you think, that NI unionists were unable to influence the protocol through domestic UK politics? What could they do to change that state of affairs, rather than having to put up with the humiliation of seeking to influence a foreign government to protect their interests because the UK government clearly won’t?

    The silliness of all this is that Ireland would love if there were fewer or no restrictions on goods crossing the Irish Sea from Great Britain. For the reasons I have pointed out to you before, this would be massively, massively in Ireland’s interest. It’s pathetic that you have such a distorted view of reality that you think Ireland would have to be pressurised into supporting this, and frankly disgraceful to you that you hint that some think there is a need for violence to bring this about. Of all the parties in this relationship, the one that NI Unionists least need to press to favour fewer Irish Sea restrictions is the Irish government. 

    For restrictions on the Irish Sea trade to be eased, two things have to happen. First, the UK has to be willing to make the decisions that would make this possible. Secondly, the EU has to be persuaded that doing this would not threated the integrity of the Single Market. Protests (or worse) in Dublin will achieve neither of those things. Now go and take your grubby hints of violence and direct them at the UK Government and at the EU-27.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Unionist violence would just expedite the demise of your 'precious union'. Unionists should embrace the opportunities the Protocol has gifted them and maybe think about not voting for the DUP at the next election. Unionism will probably divide between those who long for their rotten sectarian statelet and those who embrace their future in Ireland amongst the Irish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭Sue de Nimes


    It seems logical to me that if peace is to be maintained in Northern Ireland then both sides need to be happy with things. That means no restriction on trade between Ireland and NI as well as no restriction between GB and NI.

    Maybe the only way to ensure peace is to have checks between Ireland and the EU.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Or none anywhere. That's what May had organised but Arlene Foster and the more right-wing in England didn't like it.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Your logic is quite flawed. Why should the RoI be pubished for a decision made by the UK to leave the EU? A simpler solution would be for the UK to implement the existing protocol and agree to alignment with EU standards.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Ireland didn't vote to leave the EU.

    The UK signed the Withdrawal Agreement and Northern Ireland Protocol in the full knowledge of the content and implications of both international agreements.

    Other non EU countries have been able to ensure frictionless trade and movement of goods with the EU by alignment and mutual recognition of standards.

    If the UK wants frictionless trade and movement of goods to and from Northern Ireland it needs to do the same and implement what obviously follows from the WA and NI protocol.

    Attempting to renege on or renegotiate an international treaty when the ink has hardly had time to dry brings the UK's credibility and integrity into question and leaves them in a very poor position to negotiate.



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