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The UK response - Part II - read OP

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m worried that there are some shenanigans going on with testing or reporting, or else a huge backlog of cases building. What we are seeing is a decline that we’ve only previously seen with lockdowns. And, sure, schools are off and we are all outside, but it shouldn’t be following the pattern that we’d see in a lockdown.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Or it may be the a lot of the people likely to catch it (ya know, should be less since they've vaccinated like crazy) have already caught it now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,103 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    No indication that any current case rates have altered in any direction based on the changes a week ago. There is absolutely 100% nothing in the current deaths that could be blamed on the last lifting of restrictions. Deaths would lag changes in cases by a couple of weeks and cases lag changes to restrictions, if at all, by about a week and a half.


    You can't claim that cases slowing isn't anything to do with the changes (that is correct and that isn't linked) , but somehow deaths are linked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    How could cases slowing be anything to do with less restrictions? Less restrictions could lead to less cases is if herd immunity is taking effect but the past few weeks have had negligible impact on immunity levels. The last two weeks have added 0.6m natural immunity, that is nothing compared to the 37m fully vaccinated and a further 10m with one vaccination.

    Deaths are certainly linked to cases, people have to have the virus before they can die from it. Deaths in the UK in the last 7 days are up nearly 50% on the preceeding 7 days, that is due to there being more cases. The peak in deaths likely hasn't been reached yet even if cases have peaked, due to the lag.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,103 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Agree with all of that. Your previous post seemed to be blaming current deaths on changes to restrictions last Monday whilst also stating that changes in case rates were nothing to do with the changes in restrictions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    While the actual changes which happened last Monday were too close to the peak in cases for them to have been the direct reason, I would say that the knowledge of upcoming removal of restrictions, and the general messaging, were contributing factors to the rise in cases. Attitudes and behavious changed due to what was coming and the nonsense around "Freedom Day". The Euros was obviously another factor but it's almost certain that many people dropped their guard in advance of any actual changes taking place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Indestructable


    Another big drop from last Sunday when 48,000 cases were recorded.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,751 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I do despair how soft people are becoming.

    A minister in the UK having to apologise for commenting about us 'cowering from the virus'.

    I mean, people really need to toughen up if they find that offensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,383 ✭✭✭S.M.B.


    A minister? It was our new health secretary and I thought it was inappropriate on multiple levels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭brickster69


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭ongarite


    One big exit wave from COVID with Delta variant is being repeated in many countries.

    It'll just be background noise for many in UK come September.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,103 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Wasn't it pretty much exactly what Trump said when he came out of hospital last year after covid?


    It really is the kind of thoughts that the health minister only a couple of weeks into the job should be keeping to themselves though. Kind of obvious it will generate you bad press if you say those things out loud.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    I was over in London Wednesday to Saturday this week and I actually found it the opposite. Generally the vast majority still wearing masks in metro supermarkets, Pret, overground trains and pubs till they sat down.

    There’s some that weren’t but they probably weren’t too fussed when they were mandatory.

    Back a couple more times between now and September so will see if that changes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    Must have followed the French and Italian tactics 🤷‍♂️



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    Well seeing as the vaccines weren’t prevalent during the previous waves and they’re specifically designed to statically reduce serious conditions or fatalities the rates of deaths are obviously going to be significantly lower, that’s how it’s supposed to work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Sure and I think the UK have made the correct and safe decision by opening up as they have done. There's still the question however of whether we're seeing a delay in the peak in deaths which will continue to rise until that point or whether the peak will come in the next couple of weeks as has been the case in the past, in which case the peak itself will be low. However please note that in either case, nobody is expecting the sort of deaths that occurred in other waves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Fast rise therefore fast fall. Since delta is more virulent and more of the economy is open, the wave passes quicker. Vaccine limiting pool of potential infectees.

    Post edited by Bit cynical on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,539 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's not that it's offensive; it's ill judged to suggest that people taking precautions against infection are behaving in a cowardly fashion when, as the Health Secretary, you're supposed to be trying to promote public health and reduce the spread of infection.

    Be a bit like a Home Secretary criticising people for being too spineless and sheep-like in observing the law, or an Education Secretary suggesting that students were all big girlie swots. You may hate your job and despise the people you are supposed to serve, but you're not supposed to let on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭El Vino


    We might see another bump in cases from nightclub opening, I expect it will be short lived but could be significant, eldest was out the first night they opened and several since. He is 19, double jabbed and has had Covid so thinks he has some sort of superpower😅. Loads of his friends not vaccinated but what we are seeing and this is purely anecdotal. Kid catches it at school or out socialising with friends. Whole family has to self isolate and one parent gets a mild dose despite being double jabbed,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Regardless of whether the peak is considered high or low (presumably relative to previous waves which are not comparable), a good portion of those deaths could have been avoided. The UK had just under 580k cases in the last 14 days, a proportion of which will result in deaths. They are giving around 50k first doses per day now, by vaccinating alone they would have reached this level of immunity quicker. Plus there would be a level of spread anyway which would have sped up getting to current immunity levels.

    Had the Delta spread been controlled for the past few weeks, they would reached the current levels of immunity less than 10 days later but with much fewer deaths and without large scale absenteeism due to the requirement to isolate. It wasn't about keeping restrictions for months more like some like to make out.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,103 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    If Delta cases had been kept lower then there would have been less cases, no argument there.


    Don't think any claim about "much fewer deaths" can be made though. Deaths have been pretty low for months, and mostly among the already double jabbed. Those double jabbed and high risk individuals, and mostly in very senior age groups, are not particularly likely to be socialising in nightclubs, or even having as much interaction with the groups that are.


    Any reduction in deaths by keeping numbers down during the Delta wave wouldn't have made any difference to the overall death numbers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    If they didn't catch Delta, they wouldn't have died from it. If Delta was less prevalent there would have been less chance of them catching it. The scale of reduction in deaths had Delta been better controlled is up for debate, "much fewer" may not be totally accurate but I don't think "wouldn't have made any difference" has any truth in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Apparently reinfections are not being included in the daily case totals, hopefully the numbers of them are insignificant

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,103 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    As the total death count is quoted to the nearest 10k when people are using it to show how badly the UK dealt with things overall, then yes I'll stand by the line that a slight reduction in Delta cases and then deaths wouldn't have made a difference to that headline figure. The last couple of months during the Delta wave, deaths in the UK have been counted in the tens per day, so even if no one had died from covid over the last 2 months it still wouldn't have made any difference to that headline number.


    I know you are trying to look for anything to bash the UK response over, of which there is plenty to pick from. How they deal with the potential current issues with large case numbers and subsequent isolation requirements would be a better target than trying to make something out of minimal death numbers and thinking that there could have been any significant change to those numbers by staying in the previous level of restrictions for another few weeks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,968 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Some seem to think that the UK approach has achieved something and could even be a "way out". I was pointing out the truth that vaccinations are responsible for the levels of immunity and would have done the same job in terms of inferring immunity in another 10 days but without the negative effects. It wouldn't have taken months of restrictions as some seem to think. 

    No UK bashing but that never stops it from being thrown out by some. Not sure what headline figure even means, nevermind how its relevant, just seems like goalpost shifting. It's extra odd if this pushes the death toll past out of 12_k and into the 130s. Not having killed 10,000 people is hardly a mark of success.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,103 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Don't think anybody is claiming that any particular part of the UK response has been great, or done anything much to bring them out of the other side of Covid in any particular great shape...except for the vaccine delivery. It's all about the vaccine, and having a highly receptive population regarding vaccines helps, but that was already in place before covid as could be seen in previous flu vaccine take up for example which would always be significantly above all of the rest of Europe, and only Ireland being close in similar uptake (although that varied substantially from year to year when I last looked at the numbers).


    The UK coming out this side of Covid is entirely down to the vaccination program. There could be some effect from their decision to extended the gap between doses that other countries didn't do as that enabled them to get more people partially covered sooner. Nothing much can be said about the relaxation of restrictions though, other than they made some very good predictions back in February about what could be relaxed when based on predictions of vaccine uptake and how it would effect numbers. Nothing to show that any of the relaxations has had any major negative effects on cases though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭brickster69


    It is looking that extending the gap with both vaccines was a good decision because it looks like it enhanced protection. No one knew about Delta at the time and probably getting hit first was a blessing in disguise and a stroke of luck.



    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



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