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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Francine. You have far too much faith in the EU. It’s actually pathetic from a so called republican. Trust those in power at your peril.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,727 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    How did we find out about the various scandals downcow? Through the various agencies of the EU.

    You are being saved from a country that is diverging away from rules and standards that have served us well.

    One day you will see that and maybe offer thanks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    How is it in the interests of Ireland to become a vassal of England? Because they are nice to us and take our views into consideration?

    Because it makes economic sense to have our only agricultural export market be small & filled with poor quality produce? Because their food standards will destroy our agricultural reputation? Because it will destroy our economy?

    In the 1920's Ireland was faced with the UK deliberately targeting the Irish economy by flooding Ireland with cheap industrial products - undermining Irish industry to make the Irish state unviable. The solution - however painful- was to install a hard border with NI. Do you think Ireland wouldn't do that again?

    Ireland's interests are:

    1 remain in single market at all cost;

    2. Try to ensure no border if that is feasible;

    3. Wait for Brexit to fail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash





  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    That is a very sad strategy.

    put you finger in the hole and wait for another country to fail.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Francine you keep believing the EU is infallible at your peril.

    you saw what happened the last time you bestowed infallibility on a great power.

    it’s up to you but be very careful. Sounds dangerous



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ....and you probably want to replace Sinn Fein with ár sé cinn is fiche le chéile
    




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,727 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody or thing is infallible. You won't answer the questions asked but instead invent things I said.

    Familiar strategy about here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,341 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Compare Ireland being part of the EU with being part of the UK.

    I don't think the EU would allow us to starve due to famine while exporting our food



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    We're not trying to screw you over. The Tories are. And as long as you enable them by pretending that we're the problem and they're not, they'll keep doing it. Why wouldn't they?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You don't think peace in Northern Ireland is a benefit for the UK?

    That's very telling. Vote Leave don't think that either. Are you sure you're an Ulster Unionist? They're generally very strong on the idea that NI is part of the UK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yet they are backing a Tory governments whose consistent stance has been to make the crap bits crapper, and who - whether through idiocy or malice - are working hard to make sure that the UK cannot achieve any significant change to the protocol.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    But not over hard Brexit?

    You're so close to grasping the point when you write "The UK voted to leave the EU and has now done so" and then almost immediately follow it with "anything which makes trade between Ireland and NI or NI and GB more difficult risks a return to violence". Hard Brexit inevitably raises barriers to trade between Ireland and NI or between NI and GB or (as has happened) between both. Hard Brexit risks a return to violence. Hard Brexit is the unilateral choice of the UK.

    Ireland is not going to allow the UK to bully us out of the Single Market, even if - as is the case - the UK's tactic for doing so is to jeopardise peace in Northern Ireland. And those in the UK who profess to be concerned about peace in Northern Ireland and who are not bitterly opposing the UK government's hard Brexit and holding them to account for the consequences - well, it is difficult to take the good faith of those people seriously.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So give me a wee list of the things that are bad about the EU and EU membership?



  • Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭Sue de Nimes


    The EU is currently carrying out 20% of all its checks on the border between Ireland and NI, a border that accounts for 0.5% of the EU's total trade. Unfortunately, too many people have been taken in by the jingoism of the EU which has been ably promoted by the Irish media.

    Enda Kenny wanted a pragmatic solution to the Irish border which would have enabled trade to flow relatively freely. It was Leo who decided to weaponise the border in order to curry favour with the EU. The Irish border could be easily managed with good will and pragmatism. Ireland being "bullied" out of the single market is now the logical result, as I see it, of Leo's policy decisions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Such statistics are meaningless.

    It only points to the fact that the British and traders in NI failed to perform due diligence regarding SM rules and get their ducks in a row accordingly.

    For example sourcing the same material/ingredients from Ireland



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,191 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Do you really believe all of the above nonsense given how many times it has been shown to be false?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,727 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What relevance has it on a thread about the Protocol?

    The point I made, the EU is not infallible and neither is anyone or thing, will have to do you here.

    In this instance though, the UK is the rogue nation, not implementing what it agreed to. And alone of the political parties in Ireland the DUP UUP and the TUV are assisting the UK in their roguery.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    It is such obvious Daily Express type propaganda. Christ, given my posting history on here, it is pretty apparent I'm no fan of Leo Varadkar or FF/FG, but to describe standing up for Irish interests as trying to curry favour with the EU? I suspect the language I'd use to describe that would end up with some sort of moderator action.

    I'd imagine as with most who have swallowed such nonsense, if one was to point out that the PSNI and British Government were actually the first to raise the risk of violence in the event of a hard border in Ireland, it would be ignored.

    I'd also imagine if one was to ask for an example of an Enda Kenny style, 'pragmatic solution' which respects the red lines of the British Government, the integrity of the Single Market and doesn't involve magical seamless borders that are years beyond our current technological capacity, one would also be waiting a long time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You are going around in circles to defend the indefensible

    What you are proposing is diverging trade to ni from gb to roi. That is expressly stated in protocol as a criteria to enable the triggering of article 16. You can’t have it both ways ie tell us to adhere to protocol but ditch the bits you don’t like.

    mots a very clumsy shoddy document and won’t stand the test



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,727 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Where is the data on trade divergence. Because business groups are happy with the Protocol...anyone would know to get their opinion first, when it comes to trade.

    So data please or I call nonsense on the claim that divergence of trade has reached such a critical juncture that it requires the triggering of Art 16 - which does not END the Protocol and is only a TEMPORARY measure BTW



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    they don't have to divert trade, they just have to comply with the rules the UK signed up to.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,191 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    1. what exactly is indefensible?
    2. Nobody is suggesting people should source from RoI. However, the UK government happily created the environment that facilitates this preferential procurement channel because as was known before they signed, NI must follow EU standards. If you look at the likes of M&S, they still are sourcing from GB and it is not going to work out for them but that is their choice. They have a choice to change their sourcing channels or to continue using GB which means that some products cannot be sent to NI from GB. This was sold by the UK government as a massive win. What has changed since then? The protocol hasn't changed - it is still as Boris described it at the time.
    3. Won't stand what test? It has passed through Westminster and been agreed by HMG. It holds legal status. It has been confirmed that it is atrading document and does not affect the constitutionality of NI within the UK. It is also the best bet to manage the UK's red lines. It has also withstood various legal challenges in recent months. So what test will this "clumsy shoddy document" not stand up to?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,727 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Even though he protests he doesn't downcow is taking the 'constitutionality of the Protocol' straight form the DUP and the likes of Jamie Bryson's cod legal-speak.

    Desperately trying to ignore the decision of the Courts of the UK.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,191 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Maybe @downcow believes that the UK courts should have no say in the running of NI - a unionist steadfastly against the union! 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,188 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Anyone against the protocol would be the first to be going, "THE COURTS! THE COURTS! THE COURTS!" if the ruling had been the other way. It would be far more honest to just say that they're fundamentally against the protocol and will ignore any legislation or political consensus which contradicts their opinion.

    On the other hand, I would not object if the NI assembly were to vote and veto the protocol because that is a democratic way of deciding things. The current griping about it from UK politicians is little more than a political game to extract more trade concessions from the EU and keep the fires of Jingoism nice and hot.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,191 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But those in NI are against it and, as can be seen above, are generally blaming the Irish government, the EU, Varadkar, and so on. None of them are saying outright that the NIP is a British implementation within the UK and is not working fully solely because the British are not implementing it fully. If Westminster were to insist on it being implemented fully then the EU would be more open to discussion on its flaws and about introducing amelioration measures. But London doesn't want this because as has been pointed out, if NI is successful then it highlights that the Brexit given to GB is as crap as everyone believes.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is diversion of trade defined in the agreement?

    I know in economics it refers to using tariffs to switch business from more efficient producers to less efficient ones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    And we're back to this "Leo weaponised the border" nonsense. Why do you bother?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I was responding directly to the poster who said that we should have been prepared and sourced product from the south to replace what we couldn’t get from gb. So direct the ‘nonsense’ accusation at the poster who made the statement



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