Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

1161719212297

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I don't think that's the case at all. The DPP spoke to no witnesses and therefore had no idea who was more credible or whose testimony would hold up in court.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    It is true that the Gardaí didn't take a statement from Arianna some two years after the murder. A huge part of the reason why a trial never occurred is because they spectacularly screwed up in some ways. In this locality of the country murders rarely happened. Local gardaí were indeed locals and many were inexperienced. Ireland was a different country then. Even Prof Harbison (whose birthday was apparently the day the body was found, 23 Dec), the Chief State pathologist, didn't even arrive until Xmas eve 1996 - possibly some 30 hours after the murder was committed. By them contamination of the scene was considered to have occurred to the point that Harbison couldn't even give an accurate time of death.

    I'm not sure if there is any evidence that Jules's daughters did not like Mr. Bailey at the time (there certainly is now). But one person did like him at the time - and that was Jules herself. That may seem odd given the violence which had occurred in their relationship prior to the murder but there's none so queer as folk.

    Therefore it could easily be argued that, given their youth, they would have done as their mother required.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Unless they felt there was more than one person involved, or likely to face repercussions? Just throwing the possibility out there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The DPP has 'no idea' what evidence will hold up in court?

    Not from reviewing thousands of evidence files and case outcomes?

    No one can know for sure, but it's the DPP's job to look at the evidence including witness statements and determine if a prosecution is warranted. They looked at it, with their experience of such decisions, and concluded that "A prosecution against Bailey is not warranted by the evidence."

    Their verdict on the scratches:

    Bailey’s explanation for the scratches is plausible, consistent and is supported by other direct and credible evidence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    The scenario you outlined above re the Thomas girls could indeed be true. Given though what he done to their mother I dont think they would have held him in high regard at the time.

    Jules and Bailey are now split up so if they did know something more there is nothing stopping them now from coming forward and giving new information.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Treppen


    I could 100% understand that when the gate was finished with and the Guards probably said "do ye want to come down and pick it up?", the answer would have been to dispose of it. No way I'd like that gate back at my property!!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    On the scratches in the DPP's report there exists the two following incompatible statements

    'On 31 December 1996 D/Gda. Denis Harrington noticed that Ian Bailey had a lot of scratches on the back of both hands.'

    ''Dr. Louise Barnes, a dermatologist (skin specialist) closely observed Bailey some five days after the murder [28 Dec]. She states “at no time, did he strike one as being suspicious. As a keen observer of peoples appearance due to my profession I certainly did not notice any marks or injuries to his face or hands.”


    The DPP then goes on to imply that maybe there weren't any scratches on Bailey's hands at all . . . even though Bailey himself had given an explanation for the scratches:

    "Mike Browne a photographer was with Bailey for a substantial period on 23 December 1996. He describes the clothing Bailey was wearing. He makes no mention of seeing the scratches on Bailey."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Anyway I doubt anyone will face a trial for the dreadful murder of Sophie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Christ on a bike...


    Ms Farrell said they received the council site for a reduced price because they were on the council waiting list. She added that Det Jim Fitzgerald contacted the late Senator Peter Callanan who in turn made representations on their behalf to West Cork Manager John Deasy to get the site for €1,000.


    She said Det Garda Fitzgerald had introduced herself and her husband to Senator Callanan in the Munster Arms Hotel in Bandon. Det Garda Fitzgerald told them Senator Callanan owed him a favour and would help sort out their planning permission, she said.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/marie-farrell-says-family-suffered-loss-after-selling-home-for-over-500k-1.2040720

    • No obvious loans to build it. Just happens her husband was a guy handy with a cement mixer.
    • Sold for €512,000
    • Made over €350k profit after clearing the €137,000 clawback the council charged for flipping it.
    • Says she made a loss, cos the harassment forced her to sell!


    How do you come from 'nothing' and walk away with €350,000 , just by asking a Senator who 'owed you a favour'. Am I doing something wrong with my life working away paying all the biils and mortgage in a humdrum public sector job?

    It's not what you know in this country... or... maybe it is what you know + who you know.

    Why do I get the feeling that there's a Podcast + Sky Documentary + Netflix Doc in this background alone (never mind Ian Bailey or the murder)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The DPP report mentions the people who didn't notice the scratches because it goes along with their theory that he had light scratches on his hands not deep briar cuts on his hand and face & that they healed up quickly like scratches not slowly like briar cuts. It is quite plausible for someone having a casual chat with Bailey to not pay attention to hands depending on whether Bailey was wearing a jacket or if his arms were visible.

    The DPP highlights discrepancies in the Garda statements:

    Gda. Kelleher says that he noticed Bailey’s left hand and could see scratches on the wrist. He described the scratches as being light and extending all along his left wrist. The evidence of D/Gda. John Culligan and D/Gda. Denis Harrington demonstrate more discrepancies in the Garda evidence. On 31 December 1996 D/Gda. Denis Harrington noticed that Ian Bailey had a lot of scratches on the back of both hands. A few days before most of the scratches were meant to have been on the left hand... It is interesting to note that the Gardaí did not ask Bailey to show the scratches to a medical or any other expert witness in order to obtain an opinion as to causation. This request was not made despite the fact that Bailey though under suspicion at the time was prepared to co-operate with the Gardaí. 

    And concludes:

    Bailey has consistently stated that he received scratches by climbing up a twenty-foot tree with a bow saw in one hand, cutting the top off the tree and pulling it down through the branches... Bailey’s explanation for the scratches is plausible, consistent and is supported by other direct and credible evidence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Yes, otherwise we wouldn't need a court system. The DPP report is an opinion based on reading a file, not a judgement made after hearing witnesses actually give testimony. The DPP report is a 'devil's advocate' reading of the evidence, posters here read it as a proof of innocence. It's not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    As someone who was on the Jury of a fairly bad and gorey case, I will say that you weigh up all of the evidence very carefully.

    Plenty of people in the Jury room change their opinion as the trial goes on and the witnesses are heard.

    But at the front of you mind is that you have to get it right because there is a lot on the line for people, so you will weigh up the evidence fairly. Anyone in the room who starts making opinions that are not in line with the evidence soon gets that knocked out of them.

    You actually even end up arguing with your self too in the jury room :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭flanna01


    There is not one jot of evidence against Bailey - Hence why he is still walking around West Cork.

    It's your type of comments that frame and incarcerate many an innocent person. The BBC ran a series of such atrocities called 'Rough Justice', nearly all convictions were based on false statements and Police corruption.

    Unless a drunken Ian Bailey was a master forensic expert, it would have been virtually impossible for him not to have left traces of his DNA at the murder site (too which a still unknown male DNA sample was found). The sheer amount of blood splatters would have covered the assailant.

    Does it not raise a doubt in our mind when you hear Marie Farrell's ever changing statements? Or the statement she gave saying the Gards had forced her to write it...?

    What about the young buck being plied with money, drugs and cigarettes by the Gards to give evidence..??

    What about the speeding car seen leaving the vicinity of the murder scene - never followed up...??

    Bailey claimed that he had been tipped off about the murder by his news guys (guy called Cassidy), this claim was later validated as being true. Phone records show Cassidy contacted the Gards, then he contacted Bailey. All validated via phone records.

    Maria Farrell was driving around the desolate murder location at 3am in the morning on a cold winters night with an unknown passenger. She had the neck to state they had been for a walk on the beach (her and her friend). Anyone who knows the area will tell you that its pitch black, no street lighting, and what in the name of sweet Jaysis would you be doing on a beach in freezing temperatures anyway....? The Gards accepted this without question.. (or did they?).

    I don't believe that Maria Farrell was the murderer (murderess), but there is more circumstantial evidence to suspect her of foul play than there is Ian Bailey. She was in the area, has given conflicting statements, and has refused to identify who her passenger was (if there even was one)?

    You state there is 'Plenty' of evidence against Ian Bailey...

    Assuming you understand was evidence is, and seeing as there is plenty of it... Can you enlighten us please, and hopefully bring this tragic event to a close. At present, there is murderer running around scot free, with your evidence, hopefully justice will be delivered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Exactly.

    The DPP may personally think that someone is guilty of a crime but thinks within the confines of the law and the likelihood of a conviction. They are not passing a judgment on the innocence or guilt of a person. They are passing judgment on the value of the evidence obtained and the methodologies and timeline involved in obtaining that evidence.

    Some posters on here seem to think that the DPP is on Bailey's side.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Unless a drunken Ian Bailey was a master forensic expert, it would have been virtually impossible for him not to have left traces of his DNA at the murder site (too which a still unknown male DNA sample was found). The sheer amount of blood splatters would have covered the assailant.

    Why do people still come up with this? It's clearly nonsense, whoever killed Sophie left no DNA evidence. It's actually very hard to leave detectable DNA evidence out in an open landscape, drunk or sober. There is no 'DNA Scanner' that identified where DNA has been left, they had to search for skin cells or blood among thousands of briars, a block with probably millions of pores and contact points on a grass and gravel terrain. It would be a massive stroke of luck to find DNA or blood from the perpetrator.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Of course, it's possible to not leave evidence, but if the theory is that Bailey carried out the crime in a frenzied attack and received the scratches at the scene, then it would be expected he left traces.

    This is not nonsense, this is from the DPP:

    The Gardaí suggest that Ian Bailey is the murderer and was scratched on his hands and arms by the briars during the struggle. No forensic evidence linking Ian Bailey to the scene was found despite the fact that the murder of Sophie Toscan Du Plantier was the direct result of an apparently frenzied and furious attack upon her in a briar-strewn location. If in fact the attack was carried out in a frenzied manner one might have expected that the assailant would have left traces of blood, skin, clothing fibres or hair at the scene. No such material was discovered.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Nobody has said that the DPP is on Baileys side.

    The job of the DPP is too decide if there is enough of evidence to proceed with a case. The DPP's decision was that there was not enough evidence to proceed with a trial against Ian Bailey. In my opinion the DPP was correct in making this decision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    The issue with DNA is that it was a new technology at the time (1996)

    People refer to DNA in 2021 as if it were in widespread use in 1996. It wasn't. My understanding is that the first DNA case resulted from a murder on Marilyn Rynn in December 1995 in Dublin and the perpetrator then was only caught due to the excess amount of DNA available from semen following a concomitant rape.

    In 1996 it was old-fashioned techniques that were being used to try and convict a murderer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    So Marie Farrell was around the area with a man for some time on the night of the murder. She was caught and admitted to several different lies. I wonder is the unknown man potentially the murderer. Was he up at the house before or after he left Marie?

    I just find it funny. He would be my prime suspect, yet he is allowed to remain a mystery, even to the police.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    That's basically what I stated.

    You can choose to agree with the DPP or you can choose not to.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    If the identity of this individual ever becomes public, it may throw this case wide open.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike



    One does not prove innocence. One is assumed innocent unless proven guilty.

    The DPP's repeated experienced opinion has been that there is not evidence to support prosecuting anyone for the murder.

    Have all the other fifty or so initial persons of potential interest, including the six or more unidentified people I previously listed, all proven themselves innocent? Nobody needs to prove their innocence, they are innocent by default.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Proving guilt in court is different from the stance here that 'there is no case against IB', clearly that's not a proven fact. There are multiple indicators that make IB a very compelling suspect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    'at the scene' includes an open air area stretching from her back door to the gate at the bottom of the lane. Rudy Guede, the only person convicted of the killing of Meredith Kercher and who admitted being present during the violent, prolonged attack and murder in a tiny bedroom only left DNA on toilet paper that he hadn't flushed. If he had flushed the toilet there would have been no DNA or blood evidence of his presence. That's in a small bedroom of a tiny house that was methodically combed for DNA and blood evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    A violent man on alcohol to women who left his home in the early hours without an alibi (after previously lying) and then claimed numerous times that he committed the murder is certainly a good start. Add in continuously changing his story, his girlfriend continuously changing her story, and calling everyone else liars. . . Bailey should be extradited to France but he'll hide in the very state that he took legal action against to protect himself from their sentence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Except Rudy Guede wasn't supposed to have been scratched at the scene, which was the point of my post, and the section in the DPP report. It undermines the Garda case for how Bailey carried out the murder and the connection to the scratches and the infamous jacket - which they were using to put him at the scene. They aren't looking for evidence in the open 'air', i.e. anywhere in that outside space but on the briars in the area of where the attack is supposed to have happened.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    They took several bags of briars for testing in the UK, you can't swab literally thousands of briar points in the hope of finding DNA on two or three of them. That would have been completely impractical and prohibitively expensive in 1996/1997. Low copy DNA testing wasn't developed until a few years later as far as I know. You'd have to examine each tip of each briar to see if there was human tissue remaining on them. I really can't understand why people can't get their heads around this. The chances of detecting DNA in this case was miniscule.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,832 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nothing was found. Not even talking about identifiable usable DNA piece. Not talking about swabs.

    No hair, no clothes fibers, no blood traces, nothing. The area was examined for such evidence and nothing found. Yet supposedly Bailey got scratches on his arms and head and tore his jacket there. The only thing ever found was a piece of blood on Sophie's boot from an unidentified male (not clear if that means the DNA quality was poor and only its maleness could be identified, or if it belonged to someone not in the Garda database).

    The reason why people don't have to "get our heads around it" is because it's there in the DPP report as a reason why the Garda theory is unconvincing. And without that they have nothing to place Bailey at the scene. The only eye witness, Marie Farrell, put him in the area not at the scene and was then thoroughly discredited.

    So we're left with, no evidence linking Bailey to the murder and no motive. Bailey's movements on the night are unclear but he had been drinking. Lots of people can't account for all their movements. Without a motive or witness or evidence putting him at the scene the lack of an alibi is not nearly enough to warrant a prosecution.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Back to selective misrepresentation of the truth I see.

    No doubt he remains a suspect as should any other person, known or unknown, who may possibly have been in a position to have committed the murder. There's quite a number of potential persons of interest.

    The DPP has examined the available evidence and repeatedly ruled there is not evidence to even prosecute anyone. Conjecture and coincidence do not make a conviction.

    In the circumstances I am somewhat reassured that the law was upheld and our government did not succumb to political pressure to extradite him to appear before a kangaroo court.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I'm specifically talking about the lack of the perpetrators DNA or blood evidence at the scene, I can't get my head around people, even the DPP, expecting there to be detectable DNA, hair or fibres at a very large crime scene area, on very rough ground and in the open air. We don't know if he was wearing a big black coat, someone was apparently seen in a long black coat at 3am, over 1km away. We don't know if that was before or after the attack, if it was the same person, if the person drove to the scene then got out of the car at the bridge to dispose of other evidence etc.

    If the killer drove to the scene, they would plausibly not be wearing a coat if they thought they could get access to the house immediately after leaving the car.



This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement