The NMH at St. Vincents

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

None of the above are maternity hospitals, so (as long as euthanasia remains illegal) there is little or no scope for conflict with "catholic social teaching". And Tallaght has specific guarantees over governance, coming from the Adelaide's protestant heritage.

Maternity hospitals are of course very different in this regard. There is direct and irreconcilable conflict between what range of treatments and procedures are legal, and what is permitted by catholic doctrine.

So you're only worried about ownership and large sums of taxpayer's money when it comes to maternity hospitals? That's.... odd.

But let's look at the maternity hospitals. Of the 3 in Dublin, exactly none are owned by the State. And all three receive large amounts of money to provide services on the State's behalf. I'm sure if I looked, I'd find all three have had expansions funded by the state.

Yet the only maternity hospital that people are exercised about is the one that won't be open for another six years. Why is that?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.stvincents.ie/app/uploads/2019/12/St.-Vincents-Healthcare-Group-Annual-Report-2018.pdf

The State will own the building for the new facility and will lease the land from St. Vincent’s Healthcare Group. The new facility will be independently managed and governed by the National Maternity Hospital at Elm Park DAC. Clinical and corporate governance will be integrated with St. Vincent’s Healthcare Group.


It's the "clinical governance" people are worried about.

Also it's rather a shame this link is 404:

Download our information sheet on St. Vincent’s Holdings CLG and the National Maternity Hospital at Elm Park DAC

I take it that this means we can now put the "ownership" argument behind us at least.

The integration of clinical governance is one of the advantages of co-location. It means the hospitals can act as one service. The current and most recent master of the current NMH have said they have no issue with the proposed new clinical governance structures. What's more the Chair of the Hospital Group has already said the hospital will provide services in accordance with law.

It's fair to ask questions about the governance structures, but those questions have been answered.

BTW, that 404 didn't have anything new in it, so you're not missing much.

It's not just about abortion. What is the NMH's current position on contraception? Pretty sure you can't get a sterilisation there.

It may not be about just abortion, but that's a very good measure to determine whether religious thinking is influencing the operation of our hospitals.

And if a hospital doesn't provide contraception or sterilisation services, but does provide abortion services, then it's fair to say that the decision on the services they provide isn't based on religious ethos.

Is there some conspiracy concerning Blanchardstown hospital and co-location. It was not considered suitable when the children's hospital was to be built,it is not considered suitable for the maternity hospital that is to be built, it's located in the most suitable access area off the M50, it's located in the area with the highest birthrate. What is going on???

horse7 wrote: »

Is there some conspiracy concerning Blanchardstown hospital and co-location. It was not considered suitable when the children's hospital was to be built,it is not considered suitable for the maternity hospital that is to be built, it's located in the most suitable access area off the M50, it's located in the area with the highest birthrate. What is going on???

All three maternity hospitals are to be relocated, and Connolly has already been selected as the site for the Rotunda.

But as karlitob says, it's only a Model 3 hospital at the moment, and will need significant investment and upgrades before it's a suitable site.

That's why it wasn't selected for the Children's Hospital. While the space was acknowledged as the key plus for the site, it would take too long and too much money to bring it up to the necessary standard for a national children's service.

Rome has been screwing the state for decades in terms of negotiations. FF/Woods' sweet indemnity deal in 2002 being the latest example.

https://twitter.com/SocDems/status/1407638150449709066

NuMarvel wrote: »

All three maternity hospitals are to be relocated, and Connolly has already been selected as the site for the Rotunda.

Correct - I had forgotten about that. Thanks for reminding me.

That said - there’s some part of me thinks it just won’t happen. I don’t know why; no evidence to back it up - but the docs in the rotunda LOVE the rotunda. They love the history, they love that it’s the oldest maternity hospital in the world. I can’t see them wanting to leave the city centre to go out to blanch. I’m probably wrong though!

karlitob wrote: »

Correct - I had forgotten about that. Thanks for reminding me.

That said - there’s some part of me thinks it just won’t happen. I don’t know why; no evidence to back it up - but the docs in the rotunda LOVE the rotunda. They love the history, they love that it’s the oldest maternity hospital in the world. I can’t see them wanting to leave the city centre to go out to blanch. I’m probably wrong though!

Don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you're wrong . Management and senior clinicians in the Rotunda have been sounding the alarm about safety issues in the current building for the last few years, eg https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-warned-of-urgent-need-to-address-rotunda-overcrowding-1.4459572 and https://www.thejournal.ie/rotunda-hospital-safety-crisis-warning-premature-babies-4683131-Jun2019/. They need to move, but it's still some considerable time away.

And given Ireland's poor track record in delivering infrastructure quickly, that's likely a long time away indeed.

She's also not very good at minding her phones, especially when they are needed for an investigation.

Are you on a windup or something?

"Former garda commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan has been exonerated of mistreating garda whistleblower Maurice McCabe and of helping to orchestrate a smear campaign against him."

Noirin O'Sullivan was exonerated by a Tribunal yet anonymous internet posters continue to smear her.

Just another smear of a woman who was vindicated by a Tribunal.

Stop making things up. You weren't posting an opinion based on her time overseeing the Garda, you clearly referenced the whistleblower issue, the one she was completely exonerated for. Not only did you post a smear, but then tried to pretend you didn't.

Well, your opinion differs to the factual findings of the tribunal which exonerated her. You are of course entitled to your opinion but that doesn't mean your opinion is not a smear.

Yes, but that is not what you originally raised on this thread - that was a smear. I acknowledge that you have changed your position on this in subsequent posts so we will leave it there.

Yep as we see with Zappone appointment now as well.

Sure, i guess it depends how big the board is. I am sure her organisational skills are very good and org analysis. The security is a thing, I dont know how important it is relative to the quality of care provided provided, it's not as important obviously. An awful lot goes into quality of care.

Yeah 1 out of 28 seems reasonable. I didn't know the board was so big. I had been thinking a group of 6 or 7 with reporting senior managers.

There may be some misunderstanding about the role of the board. the Board do not run the hospital. The only meet once a month. They oversee the running of the hospital and take care of legal issues and hospital strategy.

Is there something "fly off the handle" about my original post. I believe I even began asking the questions of what should be on a board. I have since learned that there are 26 members and 8 are medical. I didn't even mention anything negative about Noirin, I merely posited that medical staff are different than gardai.

"What should the board makeup of a hospital be? I would have assumed some people with actual medical experience would be important to have any context of the problems and available tools in a medical environment? I am not so sure how doctors would operate under a police like management structure. Many of them are clinical researchers and teaching physicians and would have the ability to move easily to other high paying jobs and internationally, too much stick and little carrot won't work for them. Completely different resources to the gardai. I guess you also need a good accountant and a politician."

Noreen O'Sullivan is an excellent choice if you want dishonest board members who are incompetent and good at smear campaigns. I suppose the other board members will get any penalty points quashed too?

Only in Ireland would this nonsense be accepted.