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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit


    It wasn`t a mundane day. It was the day the neighbour was murdered. You would be on high alert, replaying in your mind what you were up to before, during and after the time of the murder. And that`s only if you didn`t do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec



    The run up to the murder was ordinary days for all concerned - the day the body was found was an extraordinary day. Most people would struggle to remember with accuracy ( weeks and days after ) what they were doing with exact timings on the night/morning before the murder. In trying to recall you could easily mistake what happened on the Saturday night with what happened on the Sunday night.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Look at the facts though. During the door to door enquiries IB said he was at home in bed all night. After his arrest he said he was at home in bed all night. JT is arrested without IB knowing about this and says IB actually got out of bed.

    This is put to IB who suddenly, and with great clarity, remembers he got up and wrote at the table, then went down the lane to the dark, cold studio to finish an article and then brought JT coffee in the morning. He remembered the article had to be in the following day, but then found out it wasn't actually due that day at all.

    In the podcast JT says IB showed her the article he had been up all night writing when she got up and that it was on the kitchen table. JT does not mention any of this relevant 'explanation' in her garda statement at the time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Alison Day was murdered near Hackney Wick railway station in 1985.

    13 different samples of fibre were lifted from her clothing, all of which could be traced to clothing owned by her attacker, John Duffy.

    This was 10 years before Sophie died.

    And Alison's body had been submerged in a river for two weeks.

    So no, its not unrealistic to expect that Sophie's murderer would have left some detectable traces. And the technology/processes did exist to isolate and identify.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    She was raped and strangled with parts of her own clothing though, the killer had prolonged and violent contact with the victim. Sophie was bludgeoned with a stone and a brick, there need not have been any direct physical contact with the perpetrator.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    'Neighbour' is stretching things quite a bit. A stranger who occasionally stayed in a holiday home up a private road, about 5km away who you had never really met or known other than being pointed out in the distance or possibly seeing even more occasionally out and about in town could hardly be called neighbour.

    I wouldn't expect someone who had no connection to be on high alert and to have replayed in their mind what they were up to in detail before, during and after the time of the murder. Certainly not to the extent that their account, through the festive haze of alcohol, would stand up to microscopic examination of every little detail.

    The only person I would expect to have invested such effort in rehearsing their alibi would be the murderer themselves.

    It's not unusual for people to differ in the detail, sometimes significant detail, in their account of the same set of events or for a person to differ in their recollection of the events over a period of time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Refer to Locard's principle of exchange.....to suggest that a man could physically confront another person, deliver a prolonged battering, with blodd splattering etc, without leaving a trace, is not realistic.

    The reason no trace of Bailey's presence was found is simple. He wasn't there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    How do you account for the almost miraculous feat of detailed recollection IB had when he just found out his alibi was rumbled by his own partner though? IB suddenly remembered he got up to write an article downstairs, and then (conveniently covering all bases) remembered he also actually left the house for some indeterminate length of time in the middle of the night. His account of leaving the house has differed significantly, sometimes he left in the dark to go to write, sometimes he says it was the next morning after it got light.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    It could have all happened within 30 seconds: she verbally confronts her attacker, he throws or bashes a stone on the back of her head, she scrambles away disorientated and stumbles in the briars, the killer drops a large concrete block on her head. I don't see why you still expect DNA and fibres on the victim or lying around in the rough terrain waiting to be picked up. There is no need for any physical exchange of DNA and fibres to be accounted for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    It wasn't a government decision. It was a decision of the judiciary on behalf of the state. A democratic EU country wants Ian Bailey in jail for 25 years for murder. No kangaroo courts exist in the EU. Consequently Ian Bailey should be extradited from this country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,840 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It's a kangaroo court. They took evidence collected under an entirely different judicial system and applied it as if it was collected under their own.

    They claim authority over a crime committed outside their jurisdiction by a non-citizen. Treating Ireland like a colony.

    AN extradition request utterly without foundation or jurisdiction which the Irish court legitimately and correctly rejected.

    That's what a kangaroo court looks like.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,044 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Sorry. the evidence was provided by the Gardaí. The French are entitled to prosecute someone who commits a crime against a French person in a foreign country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    No, there were 50 distinct wounds identified in the PM report.

    It didn't happen in 30 seconds. And, it is worth noting, not only were no incriminating traces found at the scene, none were found on Bailey's clothing either.

    Its simply not possible for an attack of this nature to occur without some trace remaining.

    I refer you, once again, to Locard's principle. "The perpetrator of a crime will bring something into the crime scene and leave with something from it"

    There comes a point, where piling improbability on top of improbability, if on top of if, maybe on top of maybe, becomes absurd. To posit that a drunken man would walk three miles, in the middle of a cold December night, to attack and murder a woman that he didn't know, for no reason, in a frenzied barrage of blows with a concrete block, and contrive to leave no trace whatsoever, anywhere, is stretching it. It is possible - but it is only, just, possible

    Even the circumstantial evidence, such as it is, is tenuous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Completely agree. I would add though that the french were very very selective in the evidence and witness's that they did use. They only used evidence that suited their cause.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Correct. Apart from the unidentified blood found on Sophie's shoe, and of course, any fingerprints, fibres, DNA traces which may have existed on the missing gate and on the 21 (yes, 21) other exhibits lost by the Gardai. Including Bailey's coat, which, had he been wearing it at the time, would have, inevitably picked up some blood spatters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 cryintoyouravacado


    There is a fantastic breakdown from world renowned behaviour experts and body language experts on YouTube of Ian bailey.

    I don't know how to link it to here but if you will find it by searching

    Ian Bailey body language experts or something of the like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,840 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    France can make up whatever kangaroo court laws they want, they obviously don't give a damn about giving non citizens a fair trial.

    IF Ireland requested France to extradite a French citizen to Ireland in similar circumstances we'd be told to FO.

    Which is why an Irish court refused their request. They have no jurisdiction for a crime in Cork by a non French citizen anymore than Ireland has such jurisidction in Paris. They aren't bothered by having jurisdiction, you'd be a fool to think you'd get a fair trial under such circumstances.

    And when Irish police went to France, they were basically told to FO by the French police. They have zero interest in establishing what really happened and are looking for a scapegoat.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,840 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    There is if the killer is meant to have received scratches and clothing damaged at the scene, as the DPP points out.

    AGS examined such 'rough terrain' in the vicinity of the crime. Not a single shred of evidence to connect Bailey to the crime was found.

    And without that, there is no evidence to put Bailey at the scene of the crime and AGS case against Bailey is holed below the waterline.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Jeez you'd swear Bailey was the only one awake that night.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭dublin49


    there was no trace of anybody ,does that mean nobody did it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    There were traces.

    And there were exhibits taken from the scene, from the house, from the locality and from Bailey. Some or all of which may have had traces.

    Unfortunately, all, with the exception of a bloodstain (unidentified male DNA) were lost by the Gardai.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭tibruit


    There was no DNA or fingerprints on the gate. He burned the coat after having a go with bleach. He also burned the boots. He probably lay on the mattress when he got back, so that had to go too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    The were bloodstains on the gate. I don't know whether there were fingerprints on it or not, but it would be, I suggest, odd for there to be no fingerprints whatsoever on a gate like this...how was it moved?

    His coat was seized and subsequently lost, by the Gardai, that is on record.

    The last comment, like much of the "evidence" is speculative.

    No skin cells on the concrete block, no DNA traces on Sophie or her clothing ( apart from the unidentified male bloodstain) No fibres, no hairs, no blood, no saliva, no hairs.

    Nothing. If there had been, even the tiniest most tenuous, physical element to link Baily to the crime, the Guards would have found it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,840 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    And you can be sure of course, that any evidence that suited their agenda v Bailey would not have been 'lost'.

    Whereas any evidence that might lead to his exoneration... 'lost'. And multiple pieces of evidence were lost.

    Funny that. You can call it a fit up job or tunnel vision or incompetence.

    It is certainly not a proper profesisonal attempt at getting at the truth of this case.

    And then there's the Marie Farrell 'evidence', where she did not identify Bailey until it suited AGS that she did.

    AGS should be ashamed of their handling of this case.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I agree that the AGS performance was unacceptable.

    The only question is, was it "cock up" or conspiracy?

    One error/oversight - it happens, two - bad luck /sods law, three - hang on, what's happening here, 4,5,6 - fur fox sake get a grip 7,8,9 - sound the fire alarm.

    The GSOC report, timid and partial as it was, detailed approx 170 such "errors and omissions"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Your language displays your prejudice. Do you have anything to show there was anything sudden, miraculous or detailed about his recollection that as you prejudicially put it 'because his alibi was rumbled'


    The earliest reference I have found to any statement or report is just over a week after the murder. In principle I can see how there would be differences between two people's accounts in what they might include or omit due to a combination of memory and what each might have thought relevant.

    Over a month later, under arrest, under caution and under interrogation I can understand why statements would not be exactly the same in what they include or omit or in detail as statements made over five weeks earlier in far different circumstances.

    I would expect even greater variation almost a year later again.

    Cross examination might prompt one to include information not previously thought important or revise detail when the memory is prompted by something put to one in questioning.

    Memory is part recollection and part reconstruction. When confronted with inconsistency the mind will attempt to logically reconstruct a memory, not always correctly.

    Humans are all fallible. Observation and memory can be fascinating . We can fail to see the obvious as exemplified by the 'invisible gorilla test' https://www.livescience.com/6727-invisible-gorilla-test-shows-notice.html and memory altered or created by language or suggestion https://sites.psu.edu/dps16/2016/03/31/car-crash-experiment/

    Differences, either between different people or at different times, are not in themselves evidence of anything sinister.

    As attributed to a famous French cleric and statesman "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    That’s quite a lengthy and largely irrelevant rationalisation, let’s get back to the facts. Bailey was arrested on the 10th of February 1997. He is interviewed by Dermot Dwyer. Bailey is told a witness saw him at Kealfadda Bridge around 3am. Bailey said the witness must be mistaken because he was in bed all night.

    While still under interrogation Jules is brought it separately and said IB got out of bed and came back in the next morning with a cut on his forehead that wasn’t there the night before. She makes no mention of him writing a story or having to have one in the next day, despite telling later interviewers that he showed her the story that he spent all night writing. When this is put to IB he contradicts totally what he had said just minutes or hours earlier, that he did in fact get out of bed and had even left the house.

    There are multiple points of reference that Bailey had for that night, he played music in the bar, he had mentioned in earlier statements getting out of the car to look at the moon on the way home. The murder happened that night, he apparently pulled an “all nighter” to get a story written, he believed the story was due in the next day but found out it actually wasn’t. Yet you believe it’s plausible he forgot pulling an all-nighter to write a story for which he believed he had a known, fixed date to have in on the next day. A murder also happened that night.

    I think you are either being extraordinarily naive or extremely generous in making allowances for his lack of alibi and for previously giving a false one.

    I’m not trying to ridicule your attempt to explain this away, but it’s not a case of accounts differing in detail, they are totally incompatible with each other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The GSOC review was taken years after the case was repeatedly rejected by the DPP and reviewed twice by high level Garda management. The case was effectively dead. GSOC noted that many of the issues they raised in their report had probably arisen after the two previous reviews and case files being sent to the DPP. If there was a conspiracy to frame Bailey, these issues should have been occurring during the active investigation, when they would actually be useful in prosecuting Bailey. Not when the case was dead in the water for years.

    That’s part of the reason why GSOC concluded there was no conspiracy to frame Bailey, the timing was out by years and had no conceivable hope of helping the case against Bailey as it was already rejected by the DPP while all the evidence and statements were available.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    @MoonUnit75 are the statements and transcripts of interviews accessable anywhere online so I can see exactly how they developed over time and how consistent and compatible or inconsistent and incompatible they are.

    Wow, just wow! You asked for how I could account for differences and changes in statements. I gave a comprehensive answer, with references, illustrating how memory, human psychology and interview technique could influence statements over time and how selective attention might direct or misdirect an investigation and you dismiss it in half a sentence as largely irrelevant. I guess you weren't really interested in an answer that might challenge your beliefs.

    The DPP, who I presume has more experience than you or I, and who has full access to all the evidence (well what wasn't lost, removed, washed away in a flood or otherwise unaccounted for) has repeatedly determined that there isn't evidence to prosecute anyone.

    If I murdered someone and had over a month to get my story straight I'd like to think I'd do a better job. Expecting to have to account for my movements I "would be on high alert, replaying in your mind" to create a watertight story of what "you were up to before, during and after the time of the murder" and make sure it was as simple as possible while avoiding potential for contradiction.

    Disclaimer: Just to avoid any potential misunderstanding and any unintended consequences, the preceding paragraph is purely hypothetical. It is not a confession.



This discussion has been closed.
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