South Africa violence and the country's future?

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 4:44pm

I'm not for a minute cheerleading land expropriation without compensation (although some sort of land reform is certainly morally necessary in SA) but the 'apartheid was wonderful' crew would do well to look at the history of forced removals and mass ethnic cleansing of black areas during the 20th century.

Sofiatown for instance was once of the few areas in Johannesburg where blacks were allowed to own property. It was a broadly middle-class black area and a cultural and intellectual centre for black SA. Over 50,000 people were removed by force, the suburb was bulldozed and a white one put up in its place (rather ickily called 'Triumph').

I want some of the cheerleaders who apparently hold property rights so close to their bosom to come out of the woodwork again and defend that, and tell us how restitution should be achieved for those people, their sons and daughters, and the people whose property rights were taken away from them. And that's only one piece of the land puzzle in SA, there are many more stories. Millions were forcibly removed and dumped in bantustans.

Anyone crowing about communism and property rights would do well to actually look at the history of SA in apartheid.

kksaints · 29-07-2021 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679315#Comment_117679315

Considering the financial state of the South African economy at the end of the Apartheid era with record high budget deficits and massive government debt which together with current government spending consumed 92% of government revenues, it's not as if they were doing a good job economically.

Bob Bop Perono · 29-07-2021 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117669888#Comment_117669888

I'm in SA, and yeah, pretty much. Economic sabotage by pro Zuma forces in reaction to his imprisonment, although what exactly they hoped to achieve beyond his immediate release is open to speculation. They definitely wanted to ramp up the ethnic aspect of the 'persecuted' Zulus (their guy imprisoned 'without trial'), but the Zulu nation isn't really having it. Pretty comprehensive article on all of that if you type 'understanding the zuma insurrection' into google and click the politicsweb link. Boards won't let me include link...

This thread is a complete **** show, I wouldn't even know where to begin, but one thing that stood out from the usual Zimbabwe 2.0 nonsense was Ramaphosa being labelled as much of a crook as Zuma and even dumber. If he's a crook, he's closer in style to a European crook than he is to Zuma, and he sure as **** ain't dumber! Less cunning perhaps, but he does appear to be genuinely trying to get the ANC's house in order. Good luck with that!

Personally, I have more faith in the future of a South Africa that stares down unrest to hold corrupt politicians accountable for their actions than one that buries its head in the sand for the sake of relative quiet.

Bob Bop Perono · 29-07-2021 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679392#Comment_117679392

Politicsweb dot co dot za /opinion/understanding-the-zuma-insurrection

mikethecop · 29-07-2021 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679315#Comment_117679315

so i see from this post that you have no idea what is going on there or why

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679419#Comment_117679419

The burden is on you. You're one of the posters flapping their gums about communism. Presumably, you hold property rights and the dignity of man above all. Then you fall silent when it's pointed out that many hundreds of thousands of black property owners had their rights extinguished and many more millions were denied the right to access property rights while being subject to land clearances at the same time.

You're either naive, underpowered above the neck or plain disingenuous to think that Apartheidists were attempting to 'solve problems' in the 40s when they instituted laws so that whites could completely dominate political and economic life and monopolize state violence to the complete exclusion of the black population. The NP were deeply racist men and women who wanted the colonial party to last for all time.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679452#Comment_117679452

I see from your post that you haven't made a single point (have visited there for both business and pleasure a number of times btw).

Grace us with your wisdom Mike. We're all on tenterhooks here.

mikethecop · 29-07-2021 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679473#Comment_117679473

have you really though ....

all your saying is that regardless what black south africans do to each other its some how white people fault

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679480#Comment_117679480

Mike, I said nothing of the sort. Make your point or go take a walk

And yes, astonishingly, I have been to South Africa. You want to see my holiday slides?

What's your expertise on the place besides the undercurrent of racism?

29-07-2021 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679389#Comment_117679389

Well, to be fair, they had been at war for almost 25 years, add the trade embargo's.

mikethecop · 29-07-2021 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679494#Comment_117679494

i ve already made my point and its very clear to any one .

you have slides ? must have been quite some time ago then eh ?

what racism are you talking about apart from whats going on with your wee vent ?

kksaints · 29-07-2021 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679497#Comment_117679497

Because of the Apartheid era's government actions. The sanctions weren't placed on them as a joke.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679510#Comment_117679510

Why would I go around answering your questions for you? They're not posed in good faith and were quite frankly, dumb.

"What problems were apartheidists trying to solve in 1946?" - That's like a question on the Leaving Cert History paper if it was written by QAnon. I'm not wasting my time with that silliness. 😅

timmyntc · 29-07-2021 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679519#Comment_117679519

So if the US decided to put trade sanctions on Ireland tomorrow and our economy tanked, its our fault for mismanaging our economy?

yeah right. SA was an economic powerhouse up through the 90s - it is not anymore. You can thank the post-apartheid government and the ANC for that.

kksaints · 29-07-2021 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679558#Comment_117679558

If our government's actions lead to the sanctions, the yes it is our fault.

Also South Africa did stabilise its public finances and reduced inflation during the 1990s-2000s so it recovered from some of the damage the Apartheid era government caused.

riffmongous · 29-07-2021 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679558#Comment_117679558

But they wouldn't put them on us tomorrow would they. Now if the sanctions were imposed on us because of our super racist policies and warmongering, which we refused to change, then.. well yeah.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 5:57pm

We'd all be powerhouse countries if we were resource extracting economies with an inexhaustible army of labour denied fundamental rights and kept in penury by design.

Let's be honest, what was the Apartheid SA regime good at economically? It wasn't a particularly innovative economy, it was based on mineral wealth extraction with cheap labour; closely guarded monopolies and cartels. DeBeers for instance is a case study in mineral monopoly. This is a rhetorical question, whom ultimately benefitted and in what numbers? And why are people here mourning it?

Celebrate apartheid's economic achievements all you want (and some people are in danger of painting it as some sort of economic wonderland) - it wasn't exactly the Wirtschaftswunder in W. Germany after WW2, it was a classic depredation scheme that somehow lasted deep into the 20th century when others like the Belgian Congo slipped away due to complete moral bankruptcy.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-07-2021 6:16pm

I presume when people say 'better' in relation to the time of apartheid they mean basic rule of law and political accountability was better.

I don't think they mean segregation.

'Better' is probably not the right word. 'Different' is a better word.

What's interesting about this and particularly in relation to Sinn Fein here is that there seems to be this public perception that parties like that (or a Trump for example) will suddenly mature on getting in to government.

As seen with the ANC and Trump sometimes you get exactly what you for. No leadership and brainless populism.

Sonic the Shaghog · 29-07-2021 6:17pm

The best thing to do is the likes of the EU should be offering a right of return to all white South Africans.

We constantly are told are we need immigrants in Europe so why not bring back those who's families left Europe. Less cultural issues, less racism to the migrants as that's always one we hear and we also get the pesky white devil out of SA, that should surely make the black racists over there and the self hating its all the white man's fault lefties over here happy, then the glorious peoples of SA get to carve their own path nice and fresh win win.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679703#Comment_117679703

I'd have to disagree there strongly. Apartheid SA was a captured state - captured by the aforementioned resource interests; it was an entirely grotty setup and deeply authoritarian. Their intelligence and security services regime would make Putin blush, and I don't think accountability was a watchword much thrown around South African political circles before 1994 - their job was to keep the baasskap show on the road.

Yakov P. Golyadkin · 29-07-2021 6:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679705#Comment_117679705

Nice collection of buzzwords bro.

Why should we import more racists when we have enough of our own to worry about?

Kermit.de.frog · 29-07-2021 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679741#Comment_117679741

My opinion is you can criticise certain things today without condoning things in the past like the racist regime.

Is South Africa more dangerous to live in today than pre 1994? Is it more openly corrupt today than 1994? Is it more unstable today than 1994?

These are surely legitimate concerns for people living there today regardless of the past or race.

29-07-2021 6:35pm

Its gone a bad path,hopefully they'll turn it aroundn,but the only option is reform via the ballot box

As for the farmers being killed/driven from their land,as reprehensible and indefensible as it is,how do lads think that it come to be hands of whites to begin with??

Sonic the Shaghog · 29-07-2021 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679757#Comment_117679757

All white South Africans are racist? Pretty racist bro

kksaints · 29-07-2021 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679703#Comment_117679703

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679741#Comment_117679741

Considering a large percentage of the population wasn't eligible to vote under the Apartheid regime, (the total number of registered voters went from 3.1 million in 1989 to 22 million in 1994) I doubt there was very much political accountability in the time of Apartheid.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679764#Comment_117679764

I don't think it gets more corrupt than an ethnostate designed to have the boot on the neck of all but the white population. The ANC haven't covered themselves in glory, no doubt, but when they get around to forcibly removing millions from their homes get back to me.

Safe for who? Were Coloureds, Indians and Zulus safe when militias and mercenaries on behalf of the state came to clear them from their homes and dump them in bantustans in the middle of nowhere? Were political activists and civil society groups safe when state security services came to assassinate them in the cover of darkness? 3.5 million people were forced from their homes between the 60s and 80s. Think about that for a second and then think about the word safety.

There's a really pernicious revisionism going on in this thread that is quite frankly a little bit ill.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-07-2021 6:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679789#Comment_117679789

Yes but this is 2021 far post apartheid and the country appears to be sliding in to the abyss. Saying "oh but 30 and 40 years a go..." is not going to cut mustard for those suffering today.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679804#Comment_117679804

Kermit you were drawing a direct comparison between apartheid and 2021. No, apartheid South Africa is not safer than 2021 SA, when millions were being dragged from their homes and bussed to the bush. Where political activists were routinely murdered by the state and thrown in prison without a fair trial. No apartheid SA was not less corrupt than 2021 - it was an ethnostate designed and administered by a deeply racist mostly Afrikaaner ruling class sponsored by monopoly business interests.

If you want to underestimate the damage done by decades of land clearances, denial of political and economic rights we take for granted, go ahead. The clock didn't start in 1994 in South Africa.

tinytobe · 29-07-2021 7:04pm

I think ultimately, South Africa will end up like Zimbabwe. Land will be taken away from white people and redistributed or at least attempted to do so. This might result in another riot or civil war, but I think that's what's going to be like in the end.

Under Mandela the ANC was ok, but now the ANC is highly corrupt and I don't know if the Democratic Alliance would do a better job, maybe in the beginning if they were in power, but later on, I don't know, but guessing not as corrupt as the ANC.

One positive thing about South Africa, is that the lifestyle is unparalleled, good weather, wine, and golf, and cheap big size properties for those who have a bit of money. Or as long as the property isn't taken away from you and you can keep your house secure from burglars and other intruders.

Race will unfortunately always be a factor in South Africa. I don't see that this is ever going to change. Also the divide between haves and have not is very very big. The blacks who don't have anything will always see the whites as the ones who have taken their land away from them and are responsible for their misery, and the whites will always see themselves as the ones who built up the whole country, the culture, the infrastructure, and naturally want to keep their properties and land....

If I was a white South African, I would draw the line, sell my property for whatever money I get for it, and seek a new future somewhere in Europe or Canada. I'd only return for vacation or visiting relatives. If I was a black South African and owned property, I'd do the same thing, sell and leave, not wanting to be part of that future.....

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679850#Comment_117679850

If white South Africans (and it would only be the ones who are in complete zombified denial) think that they and they alone built the country then Europe or Australia really is the place for them. Every road, golf course, power station was built with black hands and black labour, and almost every ounce of gold and diamonds taken out of the ground by black hands under the direction of white-dominated mining interest. For this, they were denied the right to own property or start businesses in all but the most peripheral areas. If they organised they were shot down, and if they got smart and educated like Mandela, they were flung in gaol.

All countries have an original sin, South Africa's is just particularly heinous and went on for far too long. Like it or not, they are still living with it today.

South Africa violence and the country's future?

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