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Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭solasGael


    Where there's a discrepancy between what Ian Bailey claims and numerous other witness statements, the DPP says all the witnesses have to be mistaken because Ian Bailey is to be believed. The DPP report in places reads more like it was written by Ian Bailey's defense team than potential prosecutors. There's also a news report that Jules tried to pressure her daughter to change her testimony regarding the time(s) Ian Bailey and Jules went out that morning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    And blow up ships in foreign countries...

    I guess I better be on high alert just in case the Saudi secret service come after me for that sneaky pint I had the other night too...



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Well, that's one view.

    But I don't think that such an extraordinary level of failure can be dismissed so easily.

    This was an unsolved murder case and evidence, records, statements and exhibits should have been preserved. The number and nature of the failures do suggest conspiracy. The pages removed from the job books, in particular set alarm bells ringing as that cannot happen accidentally.

    The review itself, and the conclusions were partial and recognised as such. Its never ideal for any police force to investigate itself for obvious reasons, but this report took really brought the "quis custodiet ipsos custodes" into sharp focus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    My belief is that when the murder happened the gardai thought Sophie was some French nobody and didnt put the same effort into the investigation that they would have done if it was a local or an Irish person. Some time after Christmas they found out Sophie was wealthy and well connected ( husband friends with Chirac etc) and they realised they f**cked up big time. Its possible authorities were putting pressure on Garda head office to get the murder solved. Oddball reporter Bailey was hanging around and was probably being quite annoying at the time and was actively digging into the case - someone decided he was their man. Any evidence which suggested otherwise was lost/destroyed.

    The french are satisfied that Bailey is the murderer so the gardai achieved their goal. Im sure the Gardai and all are happy enough with this. GSOC Im sure didnt put too much effort into the invesigation for obvious reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Other than possibly the unidentified male whose blood was found on Sophie's boot, near her laces.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    I don't think it was blood, named a bodily fluid which I took to mean semen / sweat / saliva.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    sorry you are correct. west cork said sweat or saliva on the lace of one of her shoes maybe from the PM could have been someone speaking. I thought there was also blood on the sole of her shoe?

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭sekiro


    I'd like to know the French narrative of exactly what happened.

    They present evidence that IB and Sophie not only knew each other but that she was telling friends about meeting some poet in Ireland and also that she was so scared that she asked everyone she knew to go with her.

    They also use the Kealfadda Bridge sighting as evidence but there seems to be no effort at all to find out about the second witness, the mystery passenger in Marie's car.

    The bridge sighting is just one of the most bizarre bits of evidence in the case. All they had to do is find the second witness to corroborate the story and they've got the person who was driving that second witness around in the car all night right there and it somehow doesn't happen. She gives them the runaround TWICE before settling on a third person who just happens to be deceased. My concern is that if the passenger in the car had ever been identified they would have simply said "we didn't see anyone that night" or "the person we saw was definitely not IB". So that person was somehow never found. Ridiculous.

    The other thing I don't get is that when Marie is saying the Gardai essentially made her change her story until she was pointing the finger at IB why doesn't she just denounce her entire testimony? She doesn't say she wasn't out driving at all. She doesn't say she was just driving alone. She doesn't say she made all of it up just to feel involved. She just says that the man she saw was not IB but the Gardai pressured her into saying it was. Why would anyone do that? Unless there was a genuine concern that the other person in the car might come forward some day?

    I feel like she was down at the bridge at that time and with someone else in the car. Everything else could be true or not, who knows?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    You can't just read one thing and make assumtions. It has to be in context.


    The Gardai fabricated stories about Bailey and spread these false stories about the area. Once the stories became "fact" as many fake news stories tend to become, the gardai started talking to people who suddenly were prejudiced against bailey.


    The dpp saw though this and found that most of baileys assertions could be backed up and very few of the witness statements could be backed up and they were regarded as hearsay statements that were sullied by the misinformation placed in the area by the gardai.


    If you read the dpp report, it was a scathing report about garda handling and said that there was no evidence that would give rise to sending bailey to trial.



  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭solasGael


    Plus I always tell the truth when drunk 

    That's why alcohol is referred to as truth serum. People, (myself included) divulge quite a lot when they're under the influence that's otherwise suppressed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    This woman was rich. Look at the size of the famous 'cottage'. The roots of the murder are probably not in Ireland.

    When you hear hooves don't think zebras.

    When a 60 year old multimillionaire's wife dies and he marries a pregnant 29 year old Serbian model 18 months later don't think English nutter who never met her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I agree with you on the French theory - I have discussed this earlier in the thread ( or the sky thread). I think the behaviour of her husband was very odd - also he got his new partner pregnant 6 months after Sophie died - He was hardly behaving like a grieving husband.

    The cottage is very small though - I cant see how you would think the cottage is large. The gardai wouldnt have assumed she was wealthy by the size of the house if thats what you are implying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The house might look big from a distance, but its only the one room wide. If it was single story it would be considered a small cottage, the length of it and the number of windows just make it look larger. Inside it looked positively poky and even a bit cluttered, with basic facilities and furniture.

    Daniel had divorced at least once or twice before, why would he suddenly resort to a bizarre and clumsy contract killing, leaving the body in the wide open air where it would be found almost immediately and ask the contract killer to follow her around in a long dark coat and beret (?!) over the weekend?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The GSOC report also says there are pages with job numbers that skip sequence, but with no missing pages in between, so its possible there was nothing on the missing pages anyway, there seems to have been a general feel of disorganisation. GSOC re-interviewed anyone who made a statement and was willing to be asked questions on it, none of them retracted them or claimed they had been tampered with. Apart from Bailey, Thomas and Farrell.

    There's an assumption too that this is unusual in this particular case, I'd imagine though that the archives of most state agencies would be a nightmare to audit. People taking items out to re-examine them or have a specialist look at it and it works its way back into the wrong file etc. We know several pieces of forensic evidence were tested and re-tested abroad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭solasGael


    In his written accounts to the guards, Bailey says he had access to Jules' car, a white Ford Fiesta the weekend in question. Is there a reason he could not have driven?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The problem with this supposition is that Bailey himself corroborated many of them. The DPP claimed, without evidence, that some of the witnesses may have been eager to help the gardai. Over two decades later some of these witnesses travelled to France to give testimony to a French court, more had given sworn evidence at both the libel and 'police corruption' trials and none varied or recanted their statements when interviewed by GSOC. I think it's clear the DPP made the wrong call on this in their internal report.

    IB didn't deny saying something very close to 'I did it, I did it, I went too far' to the Shelley's, he has said the Gardai brainwashed him into believing he actually did it, other times he said he was saying 'they're saying I did it' or 'they think I did it'.

    Likewise, he doesn't deny saying to Malachi that he 'went up there and bashed her head in with a rock', he claimed it was dark humour but Malachi said he was drunk and in foul humour.

    He says he did 'joke' about killing Sophie to the Sunday Tribune editor, as Dwyer pointed out, no one else on the entire island is known to have been joking about killing someone murdered days before. The conversation worried her so much she immediately went to the gardai about it.

    Jules said James Camier just got the date wrong, she probably went to his stall the next day. But that doesn't make sense since Ian was apparently using the car elsewhere and by then the news was everywhere, James said Jules was the first to tell him about the murder. It seems unlikely no one else mentioned it to a regular stall owner the next day and he and his wife missed every news bulletin over the previous 24 hours.

    Two different witnesses said they saw a fire underway behind the studio around Christmas, when gardai checked it out, there was evidence of a very recent fire practically outside the back door. JT and IB said it was lit earlier in December.

    Post edited by MoonUnit75 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭dublin49


    IB's defenders almost wudnt accept a signed confession from him now,do they never tire of explaining away the anomalies.confessions ,inconsistencies in Baileys account ,the credible witnesses exposing Bailey's lies.How many realistic killer suspects are there who knew of Sophie ,could have found that cottage in pitch dark and carried out such a muscular attack.Only a handful I suspect ,and of that handful one of the suspects has a history of violence to women,lied initially about his whereabouts on the night and seemed to know about the attack before he should have and regularly confessed to the murder.His same defenders who dismiss every scintilla of circumstantial evidence against Bailey entertain any outlandish suggestion regarding any other suspect .Anyone but Bailey is fair game to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I think there may be another discussion going on totally separate from who killed Sophie. It seems like for some people, this is a juicy and ripe case for kicking the gardai and indulging in conspiracy theories about a wide ranging cover-up. You can't really indulge in these ideas without being totally committed to the premise that IB is entirely beyond suspicion. Any suggestion to the contrary is too inconvenient to contemplate rationally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The report refers to pages being cut or neatly torn from the job books. In a bound book out of sequence numbering with numbers skipped could mean the other half of the bound sheet was removed.

    I've worked in industry where provably accurate record keeping is essential. You never just remove pages, even if there's a mistake. You strike it out, date it and sign or initial it with a brief explanation for the strike out if needed. Record integrity is absolute, just 'disappearing' pages would be gross misconduct.

    If pages are missing there's no telling what was or wasn't on them. The integrity of the evidence and investigation is broken. With possibly missing jobs how can one tell if everyone was reinterviewed or if potentially unwanted evidence was suppressed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes the methods deployed by the Gardai are a matter of concern, but not only to those who want to kick them. Even the Gardai themselves felt that an investigation into the conduct of the force in this mater was warranted. So, when the GS themselves were uncomfortable with the handling of the case, then its not surprising that others share that disquiet.

    To suggest that only those with totally closed minds could entertain such a possibility, is wrong. Personally, I don't think IB is guilty of this crime but I don't think that he's "entirely beyond suspicion" so I'm willing to listen to alternative opinions and, if anything compelling emerges, I'll think again. But whether he's guilty or not, the behaviour of the Gardai is open to question.

    Its been questioned by the public.

    Its been questioned by the media.

    Its been questioned by the DPP.

    Its been questioned by the Gardai themselves.


    So, I respectfully suggest, your assertion that doubts about the conduct of the GS are confined to closed minded conspiracy theorists, is well wide of the mark.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How do you know the others weren't violent to women? Just because they weren't prosecuted does not mean they weren't



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I know I started off with the same view as you - Ian Bailey was the murderer - it was obvious or so I thought. I done more research into the case and realised there is actually no compelling evidence to link him to the murder or Sophie at all - literally nothing. I now believe he was set up by the Gardai - missing statements, Bandon tapes, Marie F says she was forced by gardai to say it was Bailey she seen, not following up viable information - the whole case stinks of a cover up. My advice to you is you need to do alot more research into the case before reaching a decision on Bailey. Yes Bailey is a very unlikeable weird character but you need to put this view aside when deciding is he a murderer. Its seems there was alot of weird strange characters around the area at the time which were not investigated properly. Also the gardai seemed to ignore Sophies life in France which could have been vital to solving this case.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There is also a separate discussion seeking to defend the garda



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The Bandon tapes don't support MF's claims of being pressured by the gardai, or that IB was being deliberately set up. It is also inexplicable that she would contact them anonymously with information. They knew they couldn't act on an anonymous statement with no corroboration so worked hard to identify her. They then tried to identify who was with her, going to Longford and making enquiries based on the little information she gave them.

    It's extremely curious that MF's statements began to align with a case for Bailey after she became his star witness. Ten years later, she changed the time she saw the man at the bridge to 2am when all along she said 3am. JT said IB got out of bed around 2.30am. This is a highly convenient change in her story. Likewise adding the previously unmentioned detail that the black coat had silver buttons. She also, completely unprompted, mentioned in a statement after 2006 that she saw Bill Fuller selling christmas trees outside her shop on the 23rd around 11am. This sighting had absolutely no significance for the case whatsoever. Except, as the state's barrister put it to MF on the stand, MF found out Bill Fuller has said he saw JT and JT and IB needed him to be somewhere else at that time. During the same trial a witness gave a sworn testimony that MF had told her she was hoping to get some of IB's winnings if he won his case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    MF is the definition of a turn coat mercenary. She deserved to have her private life made less private. No idea why the courts, AGS media spared her the indignity. It makes me assume a deal was struck. How we don't know the full CF back story is beyond me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Do you honestly believe MF was out and about driving with a mystery man on the might/morning of the murder? Do you honestly believe she was having an affair - honestly think about this?

    I believe she was at home safely tucked up in bed with her husband. The Kilfeada bridge story is fiction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I think she was out and did see a man. The idea that she was pressured into saying she was out or decided to help the gardai for her own benefit makes no sense, she made the call anonymously and then rang to cancel an agreed meeting with gardai. She also had a rather extreme reaction when told by a judge that she had to name the man she was with, getting out of the witness box and risking contempt of court when she could easily have given a fictitious name. When she did give a name, she couldn't remember even basic information about the person when questioned.

    Over 20 years later, when it no longer serves any purpose and when she has already said other key parts of her statements and sworn testimony were false, she still puts up with the hassle of standing by her claim to have been out. I think she was out and I think there's someone out there who she knows can place her there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,276 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Well it is very hard to give details of a man who doesnt exist isnt it. This is what was causing her difficulty in court.

    Who knows why she made that original call - she could have been presuaded by someone else to make that call in return for 'favours' ( these favours are documented - assault charges dropped etc. ). I dont think we can believe anything Marie says.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Yes Bailey is a very unlikeable weird character but you need to put this view aside when deciding is he a murderer.

    He beat his partner with extreme violence several times and wrote in his diary that he made her feel like death was near. He's never had as much as a black eye as far as we know yet he says she's as much to blame.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    So, I respectfully suggest, your assertion that doubts about the conduct of the GS are confined to closed minded conspiracy theorists, is well wide of the mark.

    I'm specifically talking about the conspiracy theories that it was actually a member of AGS who was involved in the murder, or that MF was in the car with a garda whose identity she is somehow still protecting even after accusing two gardai of unwanted sexual advances or even assault.

    There's plenty of reasons to be critical of the garda handling of the case, but that doesn't mean that there is no case against IB.



This discussion has been closed.
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