Bugger of a day with leaf

Firblog · 09-12-2020 8:42pm #1

OH had 29% battery remaining in 152 Leaf 24 today when leaving town for home - 14km away. Car stopped stone dead 2km from house (had given the usual warnings). Had to get recovery out to bring it to house to charge, guy dropped it off beside the charger and plugged it in and... nothing, beep beep no charging :eek: Let it go for half hour, no lights blinking, nothing, plugged in plugged out bugger all. Called the recovery again to bring to garage tried to power on to get it out of park and error msg came on screen, 'T/M System Malfunction' 'Visit Dealer' (no sh1t)

Looked up the T/M message and seems to be related to 12V being low?

@ 29% battery the car should have made it back that distance no problem, anyone any ideas what might have happened? Has it happened to anyone else, leaf suddenly starting to use twice as much power as normal?

Gumbo · 09-12-2020 9:16pm

Firblog wrote: »

OH had 29% battery remaining in 152 Leaf 24 today when leaving town for home - 14km away. Car stopped stone dead 2km from house (had given the usual warnings). Had to get recovery out to bring it to house to charge, guy dropped it off beside the charger and plugged it in and... nothing, beep beep no charging :eek: Let it go for half hour, no lights blinking, nothing, plugged in plugged out bugger all. Called the recovery again to bring to garage tried to power on to get it out of park and error msg came on screen, 'T/M System Malfunction' 'Visit Dealer' (no sh1t)

Looked up the T/M message and seems to be related to 12V being low?

@ 29% battery the car should have made it back that distance no problem, anyone any ideas what might have happened? Has it happened to anyone else, leaf suddenly starting to use twice as much power as normal?

Dodgy 12v battery?
Unlike an ICE the 12v is required during use in an EV.

unkel · 09-12-2020 11:12pm

+1

12V have a hard life in the EV and power all the 12V electronics while the car is in use. Unlike an ICE car where effectively the alternator powers the 12V electronics during the drive

Combine that with the crap cycle life of a lead acid battery (still used in pretty much all EVs) and you have a recipe for disaster

When the 12V lead acid battery dies in my EV and the car is out of warranty, I will replace it with a LiFePo4 (lithium) battery myself...

the_amazing_raisin · 10-12-2020 3:51pm

Mr Till had a recent experience which went a similar way, you might have the same problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gXv1pmBEXk

To summarise, the GOM and battery percentage is a bit of a guess on the part of the car and needs to be calibrated to account for driving conditions and degradation. The only way to do this is to charger to 100% and drive down to close to 0% so the car 'learns' where the bottom of the battery is

I've seen it first hand, I drove my Leaf down to 8% and since then the GOM gives a much more realistic range estimate.

The problem of course is that most people don't know this and believe the battery is accurate all the time

So now that it's happened, you'll probably notice the GOM is showing a lower range than before, this is because the car has adjusted to the real capacity of the battery

The climate control also sucks up a lot of power initially in winter to warm up the car, I'd typically see my consumption double for the first few minutes of the journey

Regarding the 12v, EVs will normally charge the 12v battery from the main battery using a DC-DC converter. But when the main battery drops below a certain level, it'll stop the DC-DC converter (without telling you) in order to preserve range.

Without the 12v, the car won't charge as it cannot communicate with the charger

Combined with the fact that your 12v battery was probably losing capacity after 5 years, it likely didn't have enough charge to last more than a few hours.

I've taken to carrying a 12v booster with me for just this eventuality, at least if the car dies within sight of the charger I'll be able to get it plugged in and charging

slave1 · 10-12-2020 5:15pm

The GOM is not great but not the cause of this issue, if we take a quite reasonable 1% = 1km then there was 29kms on the GOM and car went dead after 12kms.
Please get back once diagnosed OP so we know what happened

Firblog · 10-12-2020 10:35pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Regarding the 12v, EVs will normally charge the 12v battery from the main battery using a DC-DC converter. But when the main battery drops below a certain level, it'll stop the DC-DC converter (without telling you) in order to preserve range.

Without the 12v, the car won't charge as it cannot communicate with the charger

Combined with the fact that your 12v battery was probably losing capacity after 5 years, it likely didn't have enough charge to last more than a few hours.

I've driven the car to where --- shows up where the battery percentage should be a couple of times this last few weeks, so that may have had an impact on the 12v?

I think OH may have reached a low charge on the main battery, to a level where you say it stops charging the 12v. Given that this had happened a few times recently - to a 5 yo battery - would that have caused a shut down, rather than the main battery losing all charge?

Water John · 10-12-2020 10:52pm

Lead acid batteries don't like being fully discharged. No one to blame but at this point, invest in a new one I think.

DM1983 · 11-12-2020 7:47am

Sorry to hear about this OP. Awful pain. 12V can be a cause of heartache by all accounts. Mine is a 161 but must must check on leafspy anyway to see what its showing as. How would I diagnose need to replace? Anything less than 12V I presume?

Orebro · 11-12-2020 12:22pm

slave1 wrote: »

The GOM is not great but not the cause of this issue, if we take a quite reasonable 1% = 1km then there was 29kms on the GOM and car went dead after 12kms.
Please get back once diagnosed OP so we know what happened

+1 on this - would be very interested to know how you couldn't travel 14Km on 29% battery, that's a trip I wouldn't think twice about in mine regardless of the weather.

the_amazing_raisin · 11-12-2020 12:50pm

Does the Leaf have that issue some EVs have where the battery drops like a stone in the last few percentage points? I know the Ioniq had a problem like this

I've never seen it on mine but I've only been that low a couple of times

Gumbo · 11-12-2020 12:53pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Does the Leaf have that issue some EVs have where the battery drops like a stone in the last few percentage points? I know the Ioniq had a problem like this

I've never seen it on mine but I've only been that low a couple of times

Not in the way the OP described.
29% should not be gone after 12km with the car been completely dead.
Even on complete shut down you still normally get the dash lights and normal 12v battery power ups.

I know this because I tested my 24 kWh to compete dead on the road.

Orebro · 11-12-2020 1:30pm

Could a very unbalanced pack have caused this? OP when was the last time you let it charge to 100% without the timer finishing the charge?

Firblog · 11-12-2020 5:15pm

Don't use the timer, charge to 100% at the house.

We were getting dash lights (absolutely all of them I think

) couldn't get the bloody thing to switch off, couldn't open the charge port, couldn't get out of Park, without the recovery guy attaching his battery pack.

I'm the same as others on here, would have no 2nd thoughts about driving that car that distance with 29% charge.

New battery installed yesterday.

Was chatting to the service guy, saying how it was a bit of pain, no warning etc, he told me that they'd had a Kia Soul with the same issue, except they couldn't even open the doors, so couldn't open the bonnet to change/charge the battery; had to come at it from underneath & cut some cable to release the bonnet.

One lesson I learned for sure with this, I'm always gonna make sure there is roadside assistance on the insurance

, wouldn't have liked to have paid for recovery truck to come twice!

KCross · 11-12-2020 6:35pm

We see it on this forum every year. As soon as outside temps drop you have people asking why they are seeing odd behavior from their EV and it is invariably the 12V dying, which will cause all sorts of weird sh it to happen.

Unfortunately preventative maintenance is required if you have an EV that suffers from it, by putting the 12V on a trickle charger at the start of the winter to bring it up to peak health and then keep an occasional eye on its state of charge.

In the case of the Leaf its quite easy... there is a little window at the top of the 12V battery where you can peer down into the battery and you are supposed to be able to see a green ball there. If you dont see it it means its low on charge and you best get it back on the 12V charger.

If you opt for a new 12V you need to make sure it is fully charged also as that could have been sitting on a motor factor shelf for a few months and the EV may not charge it up like an ICE would.

I did the above in my Leaf once a year and it was 5yrs old and still on its original battery. Car never let me down.

Johnboy1951 · 12-12-2020 2:46pm

Seems it might be a good idea for manufacturers to include a mechanically generated trickle charge - even an alternator that is activated during decelleration would be advantageous.

the_amazing_raisin · 12-12-2020 3:56pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Seems it might be a good idea for manufacturers to include a mechanically generated trickle charge - even an alternator that is activated during decelleration would be advantageous.

I have a mental image of a fold up bike strapped to a dynamo as the "emergency" charger

I think some of the older Leafs had a solar panel on the spoiler which would charge the 12v

Not exactly gonna double your range, but if it was enough to ensure the 12v never went flat then I'd be tempted

Of course Murphy's law dictates that all breakdowns happen in winter at night time, when it's raining

Water John · 12-12-2020 5:38pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I have a mental image of a fold up bike strapped to a dynamo as the "emergency" charger

I think some of the older Leafs had a solar panel on the spoiler which would charge the 12v

Not exactly gonna double your range, but if it was enough to ensure the 12v never went flat then I'd be tempted

Of course Murphy's law dictates that all breakdowns happen in winter at night time, when it's raining

The driver could pedal away as he/she sits there, a la Fred Flintstone.

Firblog · 12-12-2020 6:11pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I have a mental image of a fold up bike strapped to a dynamo as the "emergency" charger

I think some of the older Leafs had a solar panel on the spoiler which would charge the 12v

Not exactly gonna double your range, but if it was enough to ensure the 12v never went flat then I'd be tempted

Of course Murphy's law dictates that all breakdowns happen in winter at night time, when it's raining

I have the solar panel... and it was dark and raining

zg3409 · 13-12-2020 6:33pm

Firblog wrote: »

Don't use the timer, charge to 100% at the house.

We were getting dash lights (absolutely all of them I think ) couldn't get the bloody thing to switch off, couldn't open the charge port, couldn't get out of Park, without the recovery guy attaching his battery pack.

I'm the same as others on here, would have no 2nd thoughts about driving that car that distance with 29% charge.

New battery installed yesterday.

Was chatting to the service guy, saying how it was a bit of pain, no warning etc, he told me that they'd had a Kia Soul with the same issue, except they couldn't even open the doors, so couldn't open the bonnet to change/charge the battery; had to come at it from underneath & cut some cable to release the bonnet.

One lesson I learned for sure with this, I'm always gonna make sure there is roadside assistance on the insurance , wouldn't have liked to have paid for recovery truck to come twice!

It looks like

1) Main battery went flat as you drove it to flat and ignored usual warnings

2) Small 12v battery went flat as car was not switched off with doors closed. You may have left hazard lights on etc. With dead 12v battery car needs a jump to come to life, then main battery needs to be charged.

In terms of breakdown cover, most newish cars have free breakdown cover from dealer. If you don't, then you can add to most policies but beware home start it not always covered, so no jump start on driveway. The AA annual membership is most expensive and AA will turn up with most policies anyway. If you have no cover and need help you can ring the AA and they will come for a fee. Try to do the basics to prevent break downs such as replacing a dodgy 12 volt if you know its dodgy, check tyre pressures regularly, have a tyre compressor and or spare, bring public charge cable and granny cable everywhere. Don't risk running to 0% battery, stop with 15% and head to nearest charge point or house. Even a coffee shop or pub can be used to granny charge. Check plugshare app for non ESB charge points or home users willing to help out when stuck.

By the way the Kia soul probably has an emergency key to unlock the door and pop the bonnet. Often the keyhole is hidden by a cover https://youtu.be/FxzdPt4e8fs

the_amazing_raisin · 13-12-2020 7:48pm

Something I've been wondering about:

I'm guessing the dc-dc converter will cut out if the state of charge drops below a certain level? I know Tesla's will do this to preserve range, I assume other EVs do something similar

If the 12v was low at this point, then the whole 12v system in the car might stop working, which would include all the electronics that run the car

Would that then cause the car to stop dead like the OP described?

It would explain why the car stopped despite seemingly having sufficient charge left in the traction battery

OP, when the car stopped, did the infotainment screen and the other electronics still work, or were they dead as well? Were you able to select neutral to get the car onto the tow truck?

zg3409 · 13-12-2020 10:36pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Something I've been wondering about:

I'm guessing the dc-dc converter will cut out if the state of charge drops below a certain level? I know Tesla's will do this to preserve range, I assume other EVs do something similar

If the 12v was low at this point, then the whole 12v system in the car might stop working, which would include all the electronics that run the car

Would that then cause the car to stop dead like the OP described?

It would explain why the car stopped despite seemingly having sufficient charge left in the traction battery

OP, when the car stopped, did the infotainment screen and the other electronics still work, or were they dead as well? Were you able to select neutral to get the car onto the tow truck?

I believe OP said main battery died, they towed it home, then car would not home charge, so by that time 12v had died.

In terns of main battery dying suddenly that can happen if the BMS has not been run to low and high battery levels recently so it's guess of when it will die is wrong. The car typically gives lots of warnings, reduces power and finally refuses to move to protect the main battery. Its good practice to run battery to 10% and 100% once in a while if it does not happen during normal driving.

Firblog · 14-12-2020 12:01pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Something I've been wondering about:

I'm guessing the dc-dc converter will cut out if the state of charge drops below a certain level? I know Tesla's will do this to preserve range, I assume other EVs do something similar

If the 12v was low at this point, then the whole 12v system in the car might stop working, which would include all the electronics that run the car

Would that then cause the car to stop dead like the OP described?

It would explain why the car stopped despite seemingly having sufficient charge left in the traction battery

OP, when the car stopped, did the infotainment screen and the other electronics still work, or were they dead as well? Were you able to select neutral to get the car onto the tow truck?

That is what my thinking was, that the stoppage was caused by the 12v battery being totally drained; cannot say if the info screen was displaying or not, but could not get into neutral without the recovery truck attaching their portable battery to 12v.

slicedpanman · 14-12-2020 5:17pm

After reading this thread I checked my wife's leaf... No green ball at the top of the 12v battery window. Can see a hint of green down there somewhere :O

So, what's the best way to top up the 12v? A full full charge? Does it happen after cell balancing? Or is it take it for a long drive?

the_amazing_raisin · 14-12-2020 5:20pm

slicedpanman wrote: »

After reading this thread I checked my wife's leaf... No green ball at the top of the 12v battery window. Can see a hint of green down there somewhere :O

So, what's the best way to top up the 12v? A full full charge? Does it happen after cell balancing? Or is it take it for a long drive?

I believe it should charge at the end of charging the HV battery, when driving, or periodically when off and not plugged in

So maybe try a full charge and then a drive? But the battery could be getting old and losing capacity and might not hold a full charge anyway

KCross · 14-12-2020 5:29pm

slicedpanman wrote: »

After reading this thread I checked my wife's leaf... No green ball at the top of the 12v battery window. Can see a hint of green down there somewhere :O

So, what's the best way to top up the 12v? A full full charge? Does it happen after cell balancing? Or is it take it for a long drive?

Ideally stick it on a 12V trickle charge for 24hrs.

Going for a drive wont really cut it.

ED E · 14-12-2020 5:39pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I'm guessing the dc-dc converter will cut out if the state of charge drops below a certain level? I know Tesla's will do this to preserve range, I assume other EVs do something similar
well?

Its a good protection, lead cells can fail in a short condition so theyll charge forever. Slowly draining the main pack.

Surely 12v monitoring is simple to do. A cigarette lighter monitor is crude but even that would give you an idea if you're always closer to 12 than 14.

slicedpanman · 14-12-2020 6:43pm

KCross wrote: »

Ideally stick it on a 12V trickle charge for 24hrs.

Going for a drive wont really cut it.

Any recommendations for a decent/inexpensive trickle charger? Don't have one at the moment

KCross · 14-12-2020 7:34pm

slicedpanman wrote: »

Any recommendations for a decent/inexpensive trickle charger? Don't have one at the moment

I have a “Ring” one myself but you can get cheaper. Just try local motor factor or Halfords etc. Preferably a smart charger, not just a maintenance one.

On that green ball... it can also get stuck. Give the side of the battery a few taps and it might pop up. Still a good idea to give it a trickle charge anyway for the winter nights ahead. 24hrs at least.

the_amazing_raisin · 14-12-2020 8:40pm

ED E wrote: »

Its a good protection, lead cells can fail in a short condition so theyll charge forever. Slowly draining the main pack.

Surely 12v monitoring is simple to do. A cigarette lighter monitor is crude but even that would give you an idea if you're always closer to 12 than 14.

Chris from battery life got a nice looking battery monitor that connects to an app on your phone. Unfortunately he didn't post a link for it but something like that might be worth considering

KCross · 14-12-2020 8:58pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Chris from battery life got a nice looking battery monitor that connects to an app on your phone. Unfortunately he didn't post a link for it but something like that might be worth considering

I've seen this monitor advertised in the UK sites (no personal experience of it)... its about €25
https://www.battery-guard.net/en

You attach it to the terminals of the battery and leave it there indefinitely and then you have an app that communicates via bluetooth to it, which you can check at your convenience without popping the bonnet.

ED E wrote: »

Surely 12v monitoring is simple to do. A cigarette lighter monitor is crude but even that would give you an idea if you're always closer to 12 than 14.

The cigarette lighter ones are alright too but depending on how they operate they might only give you the voltage while driving, which will usually be 14V+ which just tells you its being charged.... its the resting voltage when the car is off is what you really want to know... the above one will do that as its connected directly to the battery and not the cigarette lighter.

unkel · 14-12-2020 10:02pm

That's a cheap enough gimmick. Might get myself one of those

Bought a really cheap cigarette lighter splitter myself earlier this year, which also has a voltage meter. Think it wasn't much more than a fiver.

rodneytrotter15 · 17-12-2020 3:45pm

slicedpanman wrote: »

After reading this thread I checked my wife's leaf... No green ball at the top of the 12v battery window. Can see a hint of green down there somewhere :O

So, what's the best way to top up the 12v? A full full charge? Does it happen after cell balancing? Or is it take it for a long drive?

You got further than I did. Where would one find the 12V battery in the Leaf and I'll take a look at my own ?

KCross · 17-12-2020 6:03pm

rodneytrotter15 wrote: »

You got further than I did. Where would one find the 12V battery in the Leaf and I'll take a look at my own ?

Same place as most cars... under the bonnet.

Firblog · 27-07-2021 8:42am

Got the same message again this morning; car sitting in the driveway, powered on (100% battery), stuck in park, message on screen T/M system malfunction, can't even get it to power off. 😲

Firblog · 29-07-2021 10:29pm

Taken to the dealer again, contacted today saying they wanted to change the 12v battery (will get the one in it tested to see if there is a fault with it); they say that diagnostic on the car hasn't shown up any issue, but that if the battery is tested fine then there must be something in the car draining the 12v.

Hope they aren't expecting me to pay for this new battery, I think they are, but as I paid for one 8mths ago I'm not willing to buy another - am I wrong?

Kramer · 29-07-2021 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680793#Comment_117680793

If the battery is faulty & just 8 months old, you shouldn't be paying for another one. If something else is draining the battery & caused damage to that battery, the dealer again should pick up the tab for it.

Replacing it without finding the (likely IMO), underlying fault, is pointless - it'll happen again.

Hope you get sorted anyway.

Firblog · 30-07-2021 8:25pm

Collected the car today and pleasantly surprised they charged me nothing :)

Bricriu · 04-08-2021 11:29am

Jaysus, lads,

All this talk about EVs 'dying' on the road because of incorrect data re remaining miles, and the 12 v starting battery being run down, and 'calibrating', is putting me right off buying an electric car. I was seriously considering it this month.

I'm not a techie and don't understand electricity. EVs seem to presuppose technical know-how.

Should I avoid EVs?

Thanks.

Kramer · 04-08-2021 1:37pm

Should I avoid EVs?

No! If an EV works for you (they likely can/will for 90% of people), go for it.

No knowledge is required - just a charge point at your house. Plug in when you get home & you'll waken in the morning to a fully charged car with 400km+ of range (an ID.4/Tesla etc.) for close enough to just €5.

How far will €5 get you in a petrol/diesel?

You'll have the famed silky smooth EV experience when driving, no messy gears to worry about, the cheapest rate of tax, half price tolls & not be emitting nasty pollutants either.

These days, it's a no-brainer 🙂.

eclipsechaser · 04-08-2021 1:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704339#Comment_117704339

If you heard about a regular car breaking down, would that put you off ever buying a regular car?

EV are extremely reliable and have way less maintenance than a regular car. I imagine they break down at a much lower rate too.

Bricriu · 04-08-2021 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705268#Comment_117705268

I've driven Toyotas all my life and never ever had a breakdown. Never heard of anyone else having breakdowns in Toyotas either. They are so reliable, they are boring.

When people buy a car they expect reliability and efficiency, not problems.

Firblog · 05-08-2021 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705498#Comment_117705498

My old man bought a toyota corolla new from a garage, clutch had to be replaced within a month.

In my case the fault had nothing to do with the main battery dying, it was deffo an issue with the 12v before christmas, not yet clear what the cause was this time.

L1011 · 09-08-2021 7:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705498#Comment_117705498

Former employer had six new Aurises throw turbos and leave people stranded over a year. So now you have heard of someone (many, even) having breakdowns

solo1y · 21-08-2021 1:39pm

I got that same error message on my Leaf last month, but thankfully it was outside my house at the time. I got it sent down to the dealer and they said it was the 12V battery. I wouldn't know, but it's been fine ever since.

I have a hunch that I might have forgot to turn the car off one day, which can't be good.

unkel · 21-08-2021 11:00pm

Old skool 12V lead acid batteries in EVs can lead (pardon the punch) to all sorts of problems. Even in the Hyundai Ioniq EV, an exceptionally good EV for the money, there is a software bug / design fault where the 12V battery is not topped up enough from the high voltage battery, which can lead to many seemingly unrelated electrical problems and indeed, can leave you stranded

It's near criminal they are still using these old pieces of crap. A LiFePo4 battery of the same usable capacity would make a car just €100 more expensive and the problems would 99% go away as the car will still function fine if that battery is down to just 10V (a lead acid battery will almost never recover if discharged that deeply and most certainly will not work / not start the car if it is even a bit below 12V, never mind down to 10V)

garo · 22-08-2021 6:05pm

Another point to note is that unlike in an ICE car where a lot of amps are required to start the car, a 12V battery in an EV has a more moderate load but for longer. perfectly suited to LiFePO4.

Bugger of a day with leaf

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