South Africa violence and the country's future?

Dyr · 29-07-2021 7:26pm

It's Africa, this is fairly normal.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-07-2021 7:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679897#Comment_117679897

This attitude means you never move on and the wrongs today are always excusable by what went before.

The real end here is the country will collapse and as has been mentioned maybe partitioned with one part going the way of Zimbabwe.

Your logic implies that all that suffering, death and destruction of property will be excusable because of past grievances.

The people who will suffer most will be ancestors of those who lived on the receiving end through apartheid.

That's ok for you because it might make you feel morally better over the evil sins 50 years a go?

It's an illogical defence you appear to be making.

How about dealing in the here and now and the problems caused today by the ANC?

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679933#Comment_117679933

Kermit. I have said or intimated none of those things. If you'd care to read the thread from the start I've dished out criticism to the ANC for their venality and corruption. You'll not get far with me trying to place my position somewhere where isn't.

I have however given hell to the posters soft-peddling the conditions and wrongs of apartheid-era SA. Unfortunately, you appear to be among them, trying to suggest that the apartheid ethnostate which was administered violently is less corrupt than the flawed and troubled democracy we see today. You are wringing your hands at Zulus in Natal looting TVs 2021 but soft-peddle millions being ethnically cleansed a few short decades ago saying apartheid SA was 'more safe'.

There's an ugly and a-historical revisionism at play here, you're too smart to be part of it.

Yakov P. Golyadkin · 29-07-2021 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679771#Comment_117679771

I was clearly being as disingenuous as you were.

But, perhaps it wasn't clear enough for the feeble minded.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680073#Comment_117680073

Why don't you publish the original survey which reveals your contribution to be cherry picked nonsense?

https://afrobarometer.org/publications/ad82-post-1994-south-africa-better-than-apartheid-but-few-gains-in-socioeconomic-conditions

"Public opinion data from the 2015 Afrobarometer survey in South Africa show that citizens rate the current political system more highly than apartheid, as they have done since the first survey in 2000."

Survey from the same year (2002) - 65% of respondents rate their life as better / much better or the same since apartheid. 30% worse. The 'worse' figure has not gone up since.

Stop the cherry-picking.

tinytobe · 29-07-2021 8:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679897#Comment_117679897

I've heard all these stories and statements similar to yours. It seemed that the whites were giving the orders and the blacks were the ones doing the manual labour or the slave labour for little money. In the end, the whites said "We've built this country, every city, every town, every road, every Christian church and we dont' want to be on the next ship and forced to leave once the blacks take it all away from us........ However the whites forget that the dirty and hard labour was mostly always black.

South Africa never seemed to have put this matter in the past, it's present to date and the answer is always violence and corruption.

Bob Bop Perono · 29-07-2021 8:22pm

This thread has veered so off topic as to be misleading. The recent unrest in South Africa had nothing to do with race relations or Apartheid era grievances.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680158#Comment_117680158

I would agree with this statement. There is something more complex going on here - the thread has made very little mention of the fact that the unrest is coming from Zulu areas and the Zuma faction of the ANC etc, overlayed with the general conditions of living in Zulu communities in and around Durban and KwaZulu Natal

However, we have a cohort of posters that are digging in and actually trying to sell the apartheid era as some sort of halcyon blissful era and the silly Africans came along and ruined it all. It was a grotty ethnostate built off the backs of colored and black labour. Thread has gone way off-piste and quite ugly, but what's to be expected when apartheid apologists swing by?

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680303#Comment_117680303

Sorry you got your rear end handed to you coggy. Have a good evening.

Sonic the Shaghog · 29-07-2021 9:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680087#Comment_117680087

Nah it's good bro I get it. You're an intellectual, a real internet warrior. Who needs to take out his anger out on the internet. Don't choke on the Cheetios

Kermit.de.frog · 29-07-2021 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680322#Comment_117680322

You're the one primarily introducing race baiting in to the discussion from what I can see when most are just trying to discuss the here and now and what the future holds.

Melanchthon · 29-07-2021 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679446#Comment_117679446

Thanks, a very good article that puts a bit more context on what I have read.

I wonder what the aftermath will be, while that article seems to point to the Zuma faction having lost, it's other point that the authorities responded softly for fear of escalation would make you wonder will it have a caustic effect on other groups. In short if they are considered disposable to prevent big groups like the Zulu revoluting why should they trust the government to protect them.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 10:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680395#Comment_117680395

Thread was going swimmingly until we had an influx of posters who have little to say beyond apartheid wasn't all that bad. That's what brought about this phase of the thread. Anyone who posts that is either operating out of ignorance or quite frankly is a low-key racist who could only bring themselves to say it on a message board because they wouldn't say it around a dinner table or down the pub. An individual who mounts a defence of a system like that even if it is a sly one has rocks in their brain and needs to take a look at themselves; I won't carry the can for the thread going sideways no more than I would if it was a thread which had numpties defending the Third Reich or the Armenian Genocide.

Now as I said, you'll have a hard time placing my position anywhere but where it is. You can read from my contributions that I'm happy to talk in detail about the ins and outs of SA politics and society. It happens to be a country I know a little bit about - I've been there under a couple of different hats.

We can get back to what the trouble is in Natal/Gauteng, but if there continues to be apartheid apologism, don't get surprised if it's challenged and challenged robustly. Don't really have time for racists, it's a little thing I have, and I'm not part of the woke brigade before you level that charge as well.

Yurt2 · 29-07-2021 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680539#Comment_117680539

Thank heavens for a little enlightened detail eh? Yes, from what I've heard, a lot of this is a coterie within the ANC harnessing Zulu grievances. Durban and that coast generally is Zulu heartland and they are a group that by sheer dint of numbers feel that they should be at the centre of national politics. As discussed in the thread, Zuma and co. are trouble and you can track the decline in fortunes of the ANC and the country generally with his his tenure.

30-07-2021 8:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679897#Comment_117679897

South Africa got rich from a combination of black labour and white organisation/direction. It wasn't one or other of them alone. It was all races working together, focusing on their strengths. And it worked.

We see the evidence in South Africa or Zimbabwe of what happens when you try to re-engineer society to fit a more feel-good utopian ideal. It doesn't work, the countries deteriorate and people suffer. The evidence is plain as day.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-07-2021 9:52am

It seems to me, going by Yurt, the world is getting fair in South Africa.

Let me ask you this Yurt, if the world got truly fair in Ireland tomorrow, what would happen to you?

Aren't you one of these people that preach from the pulpit but at the end of the day when diversity and equality arrives on your doorstep you'll change your tune pretty bloody quick?

Yurt2 · 30-07-2021 10:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681590#Comment_117681590

Kermit. Where are you going with this? Pulpits and fairness? Start making sense will you.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-07-2021 10:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681636#Comment_117681636

Please answer the question.

Let us know how fair you would like society to be.

Yurt2 · 30-07-2021 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681652#Comment_117681652

What the hell are you talking about? No, I won't be answering your question, if it even is a question.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-07-2021 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681663#Comment_117681663

Well then you're a fraud like the rest of them. You preach fairness and equality - but if it arrives at your door we will all know racism and intolerance then.

Yurt2 · 30-07-2021 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681688#Comment_117681688

You've lost the plot Kermit. It's just gone 10 am and you sound like a frothing maniac.

Yurt2 · 30-07-2021 10:15am

TIL: People who defend apartheid get their knickers in a bunch when they're called racist. I think they prefer the term "racial realists" these days, but they'll have to live with the classic old racist title for now.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-07-2021 10:15am

You are just avoiding the question because you know the answer. You just can't articulate it.

timmyntc · 30-07-2021 10:16am

Yurt you clearly have a massive chip on your shoulder regards South Africa, and must be delusional to think that current SA has a better standard of living or a better future than that under apartheid.

This is not an endorsement of apartheid - far from it. Just a scathing criticism of the post-apartheid governance. You keep painting this false dichotomy that not being happy with current RSA = you are a racist who supported apartheid. Disingenuous maximus right there.

The reality is that South Africa did well to abolish apartheid, but failed totally by putting corrupt money-grabbers such as the ANC in power. People who say they want to improve life for the average african, and "right the wrongs" of the past - but in the end they just enrich themselves and screw the rest. The recent rioting and violence against ethnic groups is proof of how much the country is regressing - and note that a lot of the violence is not instigated by or against whites - its the rainbow coalition tearing itself apart. Zulus, Indians Bantus all killing eachother and looting their businesses.

Apartheid was not good make no mistake, but it was better than this. SA is on a slow descent into Zimbabwe

tinytobe · 30-07-2021 10:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117680158#Comment_117680158

You think so? The name of the thread is "South Africa Violence and the country's future". By the name of the thread, people will automatically discuss the country's problems, blaming it on the past and looking into the future. And the current violence is very much connected to the grave differences between have and have-nots.

I don't know if you've ever been to South Africa recently. To date the subject of race, white vs black, the history of Apartheid, current race relations and or even reverse discrimination are a constant subject, together with crime, violence and corruption. Crime in South Africa is very specific, as it's not only crime, but has always violence attached to it. For instance, they don't just break into your house to rob you, but also to either rape or kill. It's mostly not only robbery or theft, but often always attached to some other form of violence. Some houses are secure like fortresses, the likes you've never imagined.

Since the future is also part of the thread of this topic, one just has to ask who of sound mind will actually shape the future of such a violent and corrupt country with such a history? I'd say the country will never attract immigrants or decent investment the way Australia or Canada does, in fact South Africa will only see a brain drain, and stumbling even further into problems as the financial capable, educated part of the society leaves, seeks a future elsewhere.

Yurt2 · 30-07-2021 10:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681728#Comment_117681728

Timmy, Re-read the thread, I have levelled criticism at the ANC for their corruption and am not impressed with the outcomes since Zuma. Simple as. Like kermit, I'm not going to have my position moved for me on my behalf.

The posters defending apartheid (and they bloody well have been defending it) will get it both barrels.

If you wish to believe that apartheid was better than 'this' I'll leave you to your opinion. It's a suspect opinion, but I'll leave you to it.

Kermit.de.frog · 30-07-2021 10:21am

This is all down to the ANC.

I don't know why pre 94 is being dragged up. The ANC has had nearly 30 years. There must come a point where the excuses of what happened in the past are irrelevant.

30-07-2021 10:22am

Nobody is saying apartheid was "good". But taking Zimbabwe as an example, surely it was a better functioning place, even a happier place, under the old "racist" system. It's uncomfortable to admit, but also true.

Yurt2 · 30-07-2021 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681726#Comment_117681726

Kermit, I haven't the foggiest what your question even is. Even if I did, I wouldn't be minded to answer it as you're genuinely unhinged this morning.

30-07-2021 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681723#Comment_117681723

Racial realists is quite a nice term actually. People who see the world as it actually is, rather than as they would like it to be.

South Africa violence and the country's future?

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