Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Fighting Tao · 26-07-2021 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661949#Comment_117661949

Working as a professional for over 20 years, I have gone against my employers wishes many times, wether working directly for them as an employee or as a contractor. It has never resulted in me losing a job or contract. Professionals do whats right, regardless of what the person/company paying them wants.

Weepsie · 26-07-2021 10:19am

So you admit you're not working in the best interest of the civic good. Good to know

Sooner we stop shilling to private enterprises, and in particular developers , the better. The housing issue being used as a handy excuse here now.

It's not like they have a stellar history of sticking stringently to all their legal requirements either

Weepsie · 26-07-2021 2:30pm

Also, isn't the igb development something that a rather large amount of locals are vehemently against due to the now close to 20 year saga of being treated like absolute dirt in every plan that's been put forth and then reneged upon whenever there was a compromise finally met?

Larbre34 · 26-07-2021 4:56pm

A lot of piety on show and given the subject matter thats probably fair enough. However, let me explain some more reality.

You complain about my priorities, but, everything I offer as a solution is within the planning laws. If it wasn't, it wouldn't get passed by the respective authority. Its perfectly reasonable to propose a scheme that is both legal and profitable.

The civic good? Who are you to define the civic good? As we speak, the civic good is best served by building homes. It is also served by making them of a high quality and sustainable.

Again, this won't go down well here, but here's a typical hierarchy for consultant planners in the private sector in Dublin, in terms of getting a scheme over the line.

1. Basics like height, density and unit size

2. Added value to services and utilities to provide for the scheme

3. Energy and water efficiency, including passivity, grey water systems, waste management etc

4. Architectural standard, durability and sustainability.

5. Internal fabric standard, durability and sustainability (including things like fire safety and building systems management)

6. Mobility.

Mr. Cats · 26-07-2021 6:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661949#Comment_117661949

it seems that your professional opinion can be changed for the highest bidder. Lawyers are required to represent their client. I’m not aware that engineers are required to do so? I would think that actually they are required to comply with building standards etc.

What you are describing is dishonest, unethical and unprofessional. Yes, it’s naive to think that everybody will act in line with the standards expected of their profession. It’s not naive to regulate and strive and request that they do so. Ask the living former residents of Grenfell Towers why this is so.

The fact you readily admit that your “professional opinion” is available to be adjusted for the highest bid discredits you and your opinions in my view.

There’s lots of names for people who behave in the way you’ve just admitted.

Larbre34 · 26-07-2021 8:48pm

I'm not an engineer, I'm a Planner. You should consider distinction carefully. Nothing we propose can be realised without the highest standards of engineering and architectural design in the submitted plan.

You mention lawyers. The situation with Planners is quite similar. It's about interpretation. A lawyer will defend a client without fear or favour, but always within the confines of the law or in an attempt to establish a precedent. Similarly, I will do my best to get a scheme approved to the maximum advantage of my client, but always within the law. And like the lawyer, my efforts will be accepted or rejected by the proper authority. Theres absolutely nothing dishonest in that and I resent your interpretation. In fact your opinion is churlish and naive.

Grenfell Tower? Give me a break. That was the fault of appalling project management by K&C Borough Council / GLA and you're forgetting it was cladding added in refurbishment that caused that, not anything a Planner would have had a hand in. So in fact, please apologise for the clumsy comparison.

Mr. Cats · 26-07-2021 9:46pm

You introduced lawyers and engineers into the discussion saying they were equivalent - I was responding to your quoted post.

The engineers working on the cladding of Grenfell signed off that it was safe and within the law. No doubt this was what they were requested to do by their client. This is equivalent to your admitted approach to town planning on my view. If a planning rule is there to protect people’s health and you can find a way around it through a technicality, your approach seems to be its best for my paymaster so I’ll go for it. If the authorities don’t stop me, then “it’s their mistake/issue not mine.” F@@k the people’s health. Thats despicable behaviour on my view.

If, as you admit, you will skew your opinion to suit your client, it begs the question of why you are posting in this thread with various reasons about why the scheme should not go ahead? Most people here are posting honestly, due to firmly held beliefs on cycling infrastructure etc. Your posts seem to be disingenuous at best, throwing out various spurious reasons why it shouldn’t. You make out like you’re not invested in the topic, just an observer , yet all your posts are trying to find a logic why it shouldn’t proceed. So not so objective after all.

Given that by this stage we’ve established that you will put forth opinions that you don’t believe in, to advance a position that you may or may not believe in, if the price is right, I for one won’t be engaging with you further. What’s the point in debating something with somebody who doesn’t even hold true what they’re saying themselves?

buffalo · 26-07-2021 9:48pm

I believe judgement is due this Friday on the trial by the way.

Peregrine · 26-07-2021 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117665670#Comment_117665670

Yes, looks like it. That was quick. Barely five weeks.

Peregrine · 29-07-2021 5:19pm

Legal diary for tomorrow:

Heraclius · 29-07-2021 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117665670#Comment_117665670

I'll cross my fingers that he finds in favour of the cycle lane. What do you think the odds are?

magicbastarder · 29-07-2021 6:22pm

depends on where he lives!

29-07-2021 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679664#Comment_117679664

I'm sure a certain someone will be along to tell us soon enough

Larbre34 · 29-07-2021 8:02pm

Hereeeeeeee's Larry!

I have no idea. Really I don't.

There were some points I believed should have been included in the case, but weren't. Will the case be strong enough then, as presented? Probably, but not certainly. Odds? 65/35.

What's not in doubt is that Councils across the State will be paying very close attention to the ruling.

29-07-2021 9:05pm

Aye, could go either way but honestly I don't think so

Its my hope that, in the same vane as the recent Kerry CoCo greenway ruling, a positive ruling here would clear the way for a flood (see: trickle) of new pedestrian and cycling infrastructure and further deprioritizing of motor traffic in towns and cities across the country.

Fingers crossed 🤞

Larbre34 · 29-07-2021 9:14pm

The issues at stake on the Kerry Greenway versus Strand Road are entirely unconnected.

Ironically, the Greenway case was a challenge by an environmentalist (among others) to elements of Bord Pleanála's role in infrastructure approval!

And neither relate to wishful thinking, simply to the law.

Peregrine · 30-07-2021 3:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679664#Comment_117679664

I know which way I want it to go and, while I'll be bitterly disappointed, a judgement against Dublin City Council and its implications is a possibility we should prepare for. They probably made seven or eight different arguments and only one has to make any sense for them to win.

If it does go against Dublin City Council, I expect whatever loophole it is to be fixed through the Oireachtas but that will take precious time that we don't have.

yascaoimhin · 30-07-2021 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681109#Comment_117681109

" I expect whatever loophole it is to be fixed through the Oireachtas"

Undoubtedly. A ruling against will have massive impacts for Local Authorities across the country in their ability to manage the roads for any and all reasons. Like imagine making an LA produce an environmental impact assessment report in order to install a speed bump or a chicane?

30-07-2021 11:03am

There is a big difference in installing a speed bump to closing off a heavy trafficked route that takes cars going South to North out of the city centre.

This is the route to Clontarf, Sutton Howth for southsiders like me and no, I dont want to take the Dart in the evening, I want to use the direct route by car and thats via the East Link.

I really dont understand this insanity and thankfully Sandymount residents are affluent and influential.

I note none of these crazy schemes are bring proposed in disadvantaged areas, the locals wouldnt be going the expensive legal route, they would take matters into their own hands.

Chips Lovell · 30-07-2021 11:13am

I'd imagine that whatever the judgement, it may not be the end of it. I'd say if the challenge fails, there'll be more legal action, whether its an appeal or whatever. For the challengers, they probably don't even need to win, just drag it out long enough in the hope that the circumstances change and the plan gets abandoned.

magicbastarder · 30-07-2021 11:17am

it's funny; a few years back the council proposed closing a road off to traffic, in the drumcondra/glasnevin area, and there was significant pushback from the locals. but a trial was agreed, and at the end of the trial, the locals wanted the roadblock retained.

this is why trials are a good thing.

30-07-2021 11:27am

Was it a major route that carried thousands of cars everyday.

Pretty pointless trialling something when you know there is no where for thousands of cars to go except through Sandymount village.

Its not as though people are going to cycle to Howth from Blackrock or cycle to the airport or cycle to the Port tunnel if their journey is to Belfast.

This plan has to fail unless there is another plan to build a new road to take the displaced traffic, the existing network cant take it and displacing it all onto the Merrion Road will make this route much for dangerous for schoolchildren cycling this route to the many schools in Booterstown, Ballsbridge and further into the city centre.

And again there is no way even an experienced cyclist will be able to cross lines of moving traffic to access the proposed cycle lane, it would be suicide for a child or an inexperienced cyclist to do this in rush hour traffic or at anytime of the day really.

Does anyone know what the plan is here, is all traffic to be stopped with a right turn filter for cyclists only, this is the only way this could possibly work.

Weepsie · 30-07-2021 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117681957#Comment_117681957

Your last point is incredibly bizarre. It's a long standing plan to connect North to south and beyond then eventually onto greenways and blueways. IT's got nothing to do with affluence or otherwise of an area.

Take BusConnects nad Matro North. They're going through all types of areas, yet most of the objections I see on this are from affluent areas, with sudden and new environmental concerns. Want to protect trees while tarmaccing their driveway. People just wish to think about themselves.

They fear the absolute worst. If people were willing to trial it, and change behaviour, they'd see a reduction in traffic congestion and there is a viable alternative, It needs better public transport too, but attempts to change that are also being pushed back for "reasons"

Seth Brundle · 30-07-2021 11:33am

This plan has to fail unless there is another plan to build a new road to take the displaced traffic, the existing network cant take it and displacing it all onto the Merrion Road will make this route much for dangerous for schoolchildren cycling this route to the many schools in Booterstown, Ballsbridge and further into the city centre.

To be fair, a route is not unsafe. It is others who use the route that make it unsafe e.g. drivers who fail to look for other road users properly.

Weepsie · 30-07-2021 11:35am

People failing to grasp that the idea is to stop people driving, because vast majority of trips are single person vehicles doing less than 5km.

Podge_irl · 30-07-2021 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682074#Comment_117682074

Yes, literally nowhere for them to go except Sandymount village. Dublin being notorious for only having two roads and being otherwise a vast swathe of cycle lanes.

Why wouldn't someone cycle from Howth to Blackrock?

30-07-2021 11:41am

What is the viable alternative.

I had four children I took to see their grandparents every sunday,usually on my own.

I packed the car and drove over the East Link, do you think I should have put the whole family in a cargo bike and cycled from Booterstown to Sutton.

or should I have stood waiting for a bus to take me to a Dart station and then waited an hour on the other side for another bus to the folks house.

Look out the window today, its July and rain is non stop, going to rain most of tomorrow too,life is hard enough for most people at the moment, dont make it impossible by making necessary journeys people have to make even harder.

tomasrojo · 30-07-2021 11:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682141#Comment_117682141

Did you have to carry a flat-screen TV as well?

Alias G · 30-07-2021 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682141#Comment_117682141

Why would motorists cut through Sandymount village when Merrion Road and Tritonville Road are far more adequate. And I have often accessed the airport from Dun Laoghaire by bicycle. When accessing Sandymount strand or the Poolbeg playground with the kids we travel by cargo bike. Speak for yourself, but don't pretend to speak for others.

30-07-2021 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117682092#Comment_117682092

I can understand why people want to protect trees in their areas, some of these trees are absolutely beautiful and chopping them to reduce a bus journey by five minutes is a shame.

I see a beautiful row of trees in Monkstown have had notices placed on them by resiidents pleading that they stay.

Residents who have lived in an area for decades and who have made it a pleasant area to live do have a right to voice an opinion.

There is huge upset in the Deansgrange area too over the proposal to make the Deansgrange Road one way, its the locals who know the traffic movements, not these cycling pressure groups who have the ear of those in power, its really undemocratic to force a change through when the majority of local councillors are against it and when only 13 per cent of people who made submissions are in favour of it.

And yes, we would all welcome new cycling infrastructure but not the type that closes off busy roads without any provision being made for where displaced traffic is to go.

One rooad I am familiar with is Avoca Ave Blackrock, DLRCC tried to turn this road into a cul de sac this but residents know the displaced traffic would go down narrow local roads which children use to cycle to school and then Avoca Avenue would be empty all day.

These propsals are nuts and thats why locals are up in arms.

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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