Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Fighting Tao · 01-08-2021 4:47pm

Neither does the m7 but HGV use it when heading to the port from Limerick and many other places.

Podge_irl · 01-08-2021 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117691934#Comment_117691934

Neither does the Strand Road

First Up · 01-08-2021 4:51pm

We can repeat these argument for as long as you want but happily things have moved on. The intervention of some Sandymount residents and local Councillors have brought it to the Courts and they didn't take long to put a stop to Keegan's gallop.

I am pretty confident the adults in the room will drag him kicking and screaming through due process and make him do his job properly.

Podge_irl · 01-08-2021 4:57pm

And the ruling will be appealed and we will see what happens. If it results in primary legislation to help these matters all the better.

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117691658#Comment_117691658

By what metric are you able to say it's the safest? And for whom.

It's a largely residential area, so if anything it's the oppositeand

Not all trucks are HGVs. You're correct, but 4axle trucks made up something like 20% of the truck traffic when the 5 axle ban was brought in.

Fighting Tao · 01-08-2021 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692013#Comment_117692013

That is the worst possible outcome for opponents. It will likely mean bike tracks popping up without trial.

First Up · 01-08-2021 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692028#Comment_117692028

It has been used as the main southside route to/from the East Link since 1984 without accidents caused by commercial traffic. It is easier and safer to navigate than Lansdowne Rd, Londonbridge Rd or Sandymount Green, which are all at least as residential.

Of course we could have comprehensive comparative data if DCC bothered to gather it but that's not how Keegan likes to operate.

Fighting Tao · 01-08-2021 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692108#Comment_117692108

That is not true since the Dublin Tunnel opened though.

First Up · 01-08-2021 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692248#Comment_117692248

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117691958#Comment_117691958

HGVs have to use the motorways and Tunnel. Strand Rd and East Link is used by smaller commercial traffic and private cars.

Rechuchote · 01-08-2021 6:11pm

The obvious solution to the truck problem is to put a toll on the Strand Road. Truckers seem to have an extreme delicacy where tolls are concerned.

Fighting Tao · 01-08-2021 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692320#Comment_117692320

So the HGV situation you kept mentioning is a red herring. Well done on the goalpost move again.

First Up · 01-08-2021 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692338#Comment_117692338

There isn't a truck "problem". HGVs are not allowed on Strand Rd.

The only "problem" is Owen Keegan's hair-brained plan to close the road northbound to all traffic, without consideration of the consequences to anyone.

Podge_irl · 01-08-2021 6:29pm

There is a difference between not considering the consequences and deciding the consequences are worth it. No one here, and I suspect not Keegan, thinks there will be zero impact.

First Up · 01-08-2021 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692357#Comment_117692357

Where do I "keep mentioning" HGVs?

Fighting Tao · 01-08-2021 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692381#Comment_117692381

Light goods vehicles have the same privileges as private motor vehicles. They are even allowed in the right most lane of motorways. What is your fixation on them for and seeing you have replaced HGV’s with them, why do they all want to go to visit the East Link bridge?

Fighting Tao · 01-08-2021 6:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692393#Comment_117692393

Read the last page or two of the thread and you’ll see. Also read the previous 70, so you don’t keep rehashing the same arguments you did before. They were all addressed.

First Up · 01-08-2021 6:37pm

Maybe learn the difference between HGVs and commercial trucks.

01-08-2021 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117690714#Comment_117690714

What was the alternative route in Paris, people keep mentioning this and going, oh look we can be Parisian.

The cars must have had an alternative route, if not all the local roads would have taken the traffic.

The coastal route in Dunlaoghaire has led to congestion on local roads, the cars that cant drive down Seapoint Avenue are now on Monkstown Road.

People will just stop driving to Dunlaoghaire so the cycling lobby will say thats good, less traffic.

Dunlaoghaire though will fail as a retail destination as people who drive spend more money than those on bikes, its already in terminal decline, maybe this doesnt really matter as there is plenty of other shopping centres within a few km

Podge_irl · 01-08-2021 6:51pm

Drivers don't spend more money than people who arrive by walking/public transport/bikes.

01-08-2021 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692462#Comment_117692462

Drivers spend a lot more money.

You will fill bags if you have a car to dump stuff in.

If you walking or cycling you will not carry bags, most of the cyclists, including me who use the Seapoint cycle lane do it for a bit of exercise on a nice day, its empty when its raining, we never go near the town.

I used to drive to Dunlaoghaire, park and spend quite a bit, dont go near it now except for a walk or a cycle, I might buy a Teddys ice cream but thats it.

As I said does it really matter, there are plenty of shops in Stillorgan etc and far too many neglected empty units in Dunlaoghaire, many of these units should be reconfigured for housing.

Rechuchote · 01-08-2021 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692429#Comment_117692429

There was no alternative route. But once the quays were safe to cycle, large numbers of Parisians ditched the car and cycled instead - not for every journey, but for a lot of their journeys. Women especially took to the bike.

In relation to drivers vs cyclists as shoppers, drivers spend more money on one trip, but cyclists stop and shop a lot more, spending more cumulatively. Gentrification and retail profit as a result of cycling infrastructure is a well-known effect.

01-08-2021 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692519#Comment_117692519

Has this happened in Dunlaoghaire, have the retailers said they are busier.

I know none of my friends or neighbours go to Dunlaoghaire now except to walk on the pier or cycle to the Forty Foot, there is too much easier access elsewhere.

I dont believe for one minute that taking cars off half of Strand Road will get anyone cycling except maybe on a sunny day, its going to cause mayhem as far back as Dalkey as all those cars who would have turned onto strand road will now be on the Merrion Road.

The Dart andbuses are already overloaded and this was pre covid, if full capacity on Darts and buses isnt back by return to school time then people are going to be driving from as far as Greystones to drop their children to school in south dublin.

Anyone who is arguing traffic will disappear are not living in Sandymount or other suburbs nearby.

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692499#Comment_117692499

Actually if you bothered looking At the plentiful research on this topic you'd find the opposite.

AndrewJRenko · 01-08-2021 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117691934#Comment_117691934

Neither does Strand Road

01-08-2021 7:41pm

Every area is different but its pretty obvious to me the new cycle lane in Dunlaoghaire hasnt brought extra business to the town.

The shops selling ice cream and take out coffees were booming while we were stuck in 5km.

Come September there will be no one on that cycle lane during the week and very few in cold weather.

Those with cars will be in Dundrum , stillorgan, Nutgrove and Liffey Valley.

I cant even see the cinema surviving and the old shopping centre should be put out of its misery.

And I say this as someone who does cycle the Coastal Mobility Route, Im bored with it now though, only so many times you can cycle somewhere only to turn around and cycle the same route back.

AndrewJRenko · 01-08-2021 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692635#Comment_117692635

Would you like me to post that video of the busy cycle lane from last February again?

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692635#Comment_117692635

You wouldn't have to cycle back if they let strand road go ahead and connected them as was the overarching plan

01-08-2021 8:16pm

Strand Road isnt happening, its time to forget about it now and look for a practical solution.

Its not a pleasant place to cycle from October to April, no shelter, no protection from the wind. It would not attract hundreds of cyclists so a more limited cycle path inside the sea wall would suffice.

So pointless antagonising local communities with madcap ideas driven by a minority and proceeded with in spite of local politicans opposing these plans.

Local politicans are there to work for their communities and officials should not have the power to disregard those elected through the fairest system we have.

Deansgrange Road is the next battleground, the politicans are mostly opposing this too, residents are organising massive resistance, more waste of time and energy and more legal fees.

Meanwhile the cycle lanes inwards and outwards on the N11 are in dire condition as is the cycle track from Stillorgsn to Carysfort Ave, has been in same condition for years. The lane from Donnybrook to Ranelagh is desperate too, why not spend money improving what we have, wont get as good photo ops for public officials though.!!!

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 8:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692724#Comment_117692724

Except mannix isn't the local politician.

There was loads of local support too. It's not a pleasant place to cycle?? Well that's nothing to do with shelter. You're making stuff up that you can't back

If that was a problem, then the Dutch would've given up before they began, it's a wetter and windier country.

1000s use the route for commuting , many more would use it too once they saw a viable alternative. You're repeating the same nonsense claims that have been found to be far from the truth when suhc infrastructure is brought in elsewhere

You keep stating lies about deansgrange too. Yes there's vocal opposition, but theres also a lot of support too

Trudee · 01-08-2021 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692742#Comment_117692742

Curious to know what’s the lie about Deansgrange ?

01-08-2021 9:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692742#Comment_117692742

I lived on Strand Road. It was bitterly cold during the Winter months. It's not a pleasant place to cycle.

The regulars in this sub-forum are not living in reality. Any uncomfortable truths presented by those with experience of the area are instantly rejected.

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692945#Comment_117692945

You'd be cycling on it what 5-10 mins of a longer commute though? Winter is cold, you dress for the weather. Cycling itself will warm you.

It's among the dumbest of all the arguments that has been presented. All over the world people cycle in colder conditions than you'll get on strand road, unless it has a microclimate we really don't get anywhere else.

Clontarf cycleway is just as exposed and used year round.

Podge_irl · 01-08-2021 9:16pm

Its not pleasant to sit stuck in traffic driving, but lots of people do it anyway.

People cycle in winter.

Podge_irl · 01-08-2021 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692724#Comment_117692724

I'd rather they did both.

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692924#Comment_117692924

In that the support for the plan which does exist is purposefully omitted from every post they make on the matter.

That said, strand road had more support

01-08-2021 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692961#Comment_117692961

You are forcing an aging population (and the population in D4 is certainly of an older profile) to get on bikes in the depths of winter? Have you no humanity?

Trudee · 01-08-2021 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692984#Comment_117692984

TBF omissions as you call them are not ‘lies’

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 9:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117693029#Comment_117693029

No one is being forced into anything?

I take back my dumb argument post, as this is even worse.

They can take the couple hundred metres route in their car. And do you know what, it'd be safer, as they don't have to cross oncoming traffic lane either

D4 is a mixed bag. It's also full of families. I've worked in the area, in a heavily community based job so am aware of the age profile. Yup loads of older people, but also an ever increasing amount of younger families.

Those terriblly old shellybanks ets kids now have a dangerous cycle to contend with

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117693029#Comment_117693029

Omissions are not, but framing them in the way he keeps doing is essentially the same thing.

tomasrojo · 01-08-2021 10:02pm

Car users don't spend more than other people. I'll find the link.

Bit about DL I saw the other day. I haven't heard anyone complain about the changes since about a year ago.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1421611626269224961

Weepsie · 01-08-2021 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117693145#Comment_117693145

Well Transport for london did one study.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/walking-cycling-economic-benefits-summary-pack.pdf

and this https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-12-05/cyclists-and-pedestrians-can-end-up-spending-more-each-month-than-drivers summises an academic study,(this one) https://www.ledevoir.com/documents/pdf/etudeportland.pdf that shows drivers spend more per trip, but less per month as they will make less trips.

For balance, there was an australian study too, a most woefully cycle unfriendly place, that showed like above that car users spend more per trip, but it didn't take into account how many trips were made. It also showed that the cost of providing and servicing secure parking facilities for drivers greatly reduced the positive spend effect.

tomasrojo · 01-08-2021 10:18pm

This isn't the survey I was thinking of, but it's not dissimilar: in 2.3.1over a month in the city centre, people who walk had the highest per capita shopping spend. Taken altogether rather than per capita, bus users had the highest spend, and people who walked also spent more than car users. Motorbikes and bikes didn't make up that much, but this was a few years ago.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Dublin_City_Centre_Shopper_Survey_Report_MB_1.pdf

Larbre34 · 01-08-2021 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117692634#Comment_117692634

Eh?

Mr. Cats · 01-08-2021 10:30pm

All the comments about older people, no impact on climate change, the poor truckers (not to mention Brexit FFS) etc etc are all just looking for reasonable cover for the two main reasons people are actually on here complaining about the cycle lane in my opinion:

They live on a nearby road and they believe the traffic will increase due to the change, or
They commute frequently along Strand Road and are afraid that their journey will take longer in the future

On the first point, I understand the concern and it’s not a nice development for those affected if it turns out that way. However it’s not a reason to block something that’s better for the common good. We need to move our cities away from only having options to move about by car and encourage greener, healthier options. I would say that the residents on Strand Road itself suffered the same way when the East Link was built. Or the residents in Cabinteely, Foxrock with N11 or in fact any major infrastructure always has some consequences. There will always be winners and losers in it unfortunately.

For the second group, ultimately the single occupancy car journey is becoming unsustainable for many reasons, including congestion, pollution, and climate impact. We as a society have to find other ways. The idea is to encourage people to make other choices as we can no longer sustain this mode of transport.

I really wish people would just be honest and admit these are the reasons they object to the change. Then we can move the conversation onto minimising the impact for where there are actual traffic increases (eg by banning commercial vehicles, speed limits etc) and developing alternative public transport options for the second group so it’s more convenient.

As someone who lives along the south Dublin coast and works in central Dublin, I know well the hell that Strand Road is today at rush hour for all road users. It can take an hour and a half or more to cover the 8km from Blackrock to East Link in a car in the morning and similar going the other way in the evenings. It’s not like it’s an idyll currently so why not trial the change? There has to be a better way.

01-08-2021 11:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117693277#Comment_117693277

I don't even live in the Country so don't tell me I have an ulterior motive other than to highlight that rabid Cycling advocates don't give a damn about how many people they inconvenience in pursuit of objective which is to get preferential access to the roads ahead of all others. In this case their aim of taking a road away from other road users such as delivery staff, commuters in cars and motorbikes, buses, taxis and hackneys has been frustrated.

Weepsie · 02-08-2021 12:04am

They're not taking the road away though. And that's not the aim. Aim isn't to choke the roads whatsoever. Every objector has deliberately ignored the fact that traffic volume ordinarily tends to fall in areas where this type of thing is implemented.

It's willful ignorance at best or just sheer stupidity. The cold weather arguments make me think the latter

It would convenience an awful lot of people to go ahead and likely bring down noise pollution too making it a far more pleasant place to be. It would allow a large percentage of people to ditch the car, as a safe cycling alternative is there. Deliveries are increasingly done by non vehicular traffic too, and household deliveries could still be done and possibly easier too.

Nothing worse than having endless traffic at a standstill at your doorstep

02-08-2021 12:08am

If you have to resort to veiled Ad Hominem attacks on me as a former resident then that reflects badly on you.

Weepsie · 02-08-2021 12:35am

I'm not, I'm simply pointing out that every thing you have stated, every outcome is way out in the ludicrous scale for reasons to not proceed with the plan. They're tired old excuses that get trotted out.

You could formerly be a tree and it would be as relevant to the points you're making badly

02-08-2021 12:38am

You are not fit to be a Contributor much less a Moderator on this forum. You made an Ad Hominem attack on me. Recuse yourself.

Weepsie · 02-08-2021 12:48am

I called the post dumb. I called the follow up post dumber. I've no opinion on you as i don't know you. You made 2 completely inane and irrelevant posts about some faux concern for elderly and the effect of the weather. A wilful ignorance of the wider points that have been raised many times joined with that sort of thinking is not good faith posting

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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