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Lions Tour

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 887 ✭✭✭crybaby


    Watson, VDM and Hogg should be nowhere near the starting 15 next week, all 3 targeted with high balls and all 3 utterly rubbish at dealing with them.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If you don't have players capable of executing them, then the tactics are wrong. Your game plan needs to reflect the abilities and strengths of your playing staff



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,373 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Again I'll ask, what were people expecting from Gatty? People will point to his record with Wales but he isn't actually that good a coach!

    Route one didn't work so he hasn't a clue what to do next. He picked a squad to try out muscle the boks on their home patch... not to play rugby. He won the first test because SA were out on their feet after 40 mins.

    People forget the only reason he won in 2013 was Corbisiero scrummed aus off the off the park in the third test - a player who was there due to injury.

    Too many changes need to be made for the final test. Back 3 need to go and I think both beirne and Hendo need to start. Lions need a proper 13.. but oh look they don't have one



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Of all things to question with that try, downward pressure is the least questionable. If he's in contact with any part of the top of the ball as it touches the ground, there has to be downward pressure. The telltale sign is that the ball sticks to the ground, it doesn't bounce up at all. Without downward pressure, this would have to defy the laws of physics.

    I'm sure you could find dozens of examples of much more questionable examples of tries that have been given with players diving on a loose ball to score. I always thought it was agreed that if a player maintains contact, then a try is given.

    The only occasions I can think of this type of try isn't given is if a daylight is seen between the player and the ball, therefore it is a knock on.

    I didn't watch the UK commentary, but Nigel Owens is wrong with whatever he said. If he didn't give that try then the TMO would have overruled him anyway, making his opinion null and void 😜



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,179 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Breaking news..... Stuart Hogg is to leave Lions bubble. A spokesman was quoted as saying there was nothing to worry about 'He won't catch a thing'


    Pinched from twitter.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    SA are highly effective but they’re a really hard watch, other teams like England play physical stuff first and foremost but at least we can play some rugby on occasion (not this year obviously).

    Hard to see how the lions turn it around but if available I would like to see Wyn Jones, Beirne, Farrell, Aki, Williams and Adams come in to the side, stack the bench 6-2 with Navidi and Simmons on there and Daly to cover basically every backs position plus price.

    Im a big fan of Slade and do think Gatland made a mistake here, lovely passer, great left foot, can run and tackle, it feels like the lions will need a try or two and he could be the player to help with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    That’s not entirely correct, downward pressure is only applicable when the ball is on the ground when a player comes into contact with it!


    If the ball is in the air when the player first gathers it then the player has to be “in control” of the ball at grounding. It’s fairly clear this is what O’Keefe was looking for from his comms too. The debate is weather Am actually was in control?!?


    For me it’s clear he wasn’t but the ref said “once he gathers it never left his palm” or something to that effect. If that’s what indeed happened then it’s a try, but the camera footage suggests differently.


    EDIT: it’s different again if the player is in possession of the ball as he crosses the line, but let’s not get into that!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    Erasmus has wrecked this series with his stunts. The officials took forever to check footage multiple times - ruining any little momentum in the match. This, coupled with very limited tactics from both sides , suited the less fit SA players who had ample time to recover because the ball was rarely in play for long.

    I hugely admire Gatland but I thought he got it wrong yesterday. Starting Murray pointed to the Lions playing SA at their own game - box kick and chase - which they lost comprehensively.

    He also failed to address this either through a change in tactics or by using the subs. VdM, Hogg, Watson were clearly beaten dockets by 5 mins into the second half.

    Why on earth substitute your hooker (who was playing well) immediately into a line out. Once he duffed the first throw his confidence was rocked and we never recovered our superiority in the line out.

    The only way the Lions can win this series is by moving the ball quicker and keeping it in play for longer. It worked in the first test and was forgotten in the second test (I think Erasmus got to Gatland).

    I sincerely hope we can beat them next week. I do not want to see Erasmus rewarded for his contempt for the game.

    The fact that many SA supporters are lauding him for it speaks volumes about their view of the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,373 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    You do realise price box kicked just as much in the first test?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Rassie has become a boards.ie international window seagull.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    The Lions lost the set piece battle. They lost the aerial battle. They lost the physical battle. They couldn't make a line break. Did they even beat a tackler? But according to some fans they lost the match because Rassie got in the officials' heads. 🙄


    Thought Itoje should have been penalised for unsportsman like conduct in a kickable position and he should have been carded for kneeling on DDA's neck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭GiftofGab


    Rushing defences are killing the game. Too much kicking in the game now. I'm not sure what can be done but hopefully world rugby make some changes to the laws to encourage more running rugby.



  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    The irony of Itoje kneeling before the game for a protest that was sparked by a cop kneeling on someones neck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭GiftofGab


    I read somewhere that this was the 2nd longest game in history. Over 2 hours to play 80 mins of rugby. Disgraceful.

    Hopefully for the 3rd test the lions keep their discipline, keep the ball in play and actually start running with ball in hand.

    I'd honestly prefer the play some running attacking rugby and lose the anti-rugby and win.



  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    It really is shocking. I wince when teams throw up those 50/50 Garryowens when in the opposition final third.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It just screams of not having a clue of what to do in an attacking sense. It really has been a shocking series from an attacking point of view, and it's not because both teams have amazing defence. There's just a total lack of endeavour from either side. Virtually all of SA's tries or near tries have come from kicks forward.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Lions defence in open play was very good. The Lions fielding of kicks was incredibly poor. You'd want to be a pretty stubborn ideologue about the game to not switch to kicking as an offensive tactic.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fair. They are not the wrong tactics to beat the Boks in general, and the baffling thing is that the Lions do have several players better suited to that gameplan with them. Why he picked that back 3 I will never understand.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭TheAnalyst_


    Dreadful game and tour in every way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    What do you expect, like? It was always going to be like this. It's difficult to play against a team with the cohesion, physicality and aggression of the Springboks.

    Gatland's a good guy to have in there anyway. He's good at getting a response from his players when a performance hasn't been competitive enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭Legalfarmer89


    Totally agree.......

    that game of Rugby took ages, had soo many stoppages and was a poor spectacle.

    They need to limit the time it takes for a TMO to make a decision and while I appreciate that rugby is a stop start game, the constant extended stoppages are just slowing the game down and stopping a more flowing game which I think World Rugby are looking for(would be a better spectacle also).

    They also need to reduce the amount of Subs to 6 or at the very most 7. Teams don’t need 8 Subs......



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not saying kicking shouldn't be used as a tactic, but this series has shown very little in the way of quick phase play, pick and goes, offloads, and organised back moves. The Lions defence may have been good, but I can't really remember SA trying anything of note to test that defence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I thought the 2 defences were pretty good yesterday. And once SA realised they had a massive advantage with their kicking game they'd have been mad to pass it up.

    Gatland never came to play. Look at his centre selections for the squad. It also doesn't help that the home nations don't have (m)any top class backs. Even 4 years ago they had Murray-Sexton-Farrell-Davies in or around their pomp. This time only Henshaw is in or around that level.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    For the statisticians out there, when was the last time an international rugby match had less metres run? A combined total of 284m between both teams has to be some kind of record, surely. This is also bearing in mind that SA missed 15 tackles.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Ya, I think both defences, and the boks in particular have been excellent and that’s shutting down any attacking platform. And once the boks realised they had such dominance in the air, they had no reason to deviate from that pressed home that advantage.

    Saw this stat on Twitter, looks like 3 tries conceded in their last 9 Tests, which is impressive.

    Having said all that, it was one for the purists. Which is another way of saying it was dire stuff. It’s a shame as it’s one of the higher profile games and I can’t see that attracting many casuals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Even worse, that's the sort of game that would turn casuals off rugby altogether.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Wonder if the 50/22 will have the desired effect...

    I don't like watching South Africa play, but I doubt SA give a ****!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    The real puzzler is Gatland's selection. He picked players for an open, loose game and in the last two tests has proceeded to play the opposite way. It doesn't make sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    Interesting point.

    I suppose you have to ask - why did SA win by 18 points this week when they lost only a week previously. ? SA had a bit more match fitness for sure. Other than that, SA picked (mostly) the same team, they played the very same game plan, they brought on (mostly) the same substitutes at around the same time in the match. And they faced a (mostly) unchanged Lions team.

    So, what was the difference?

    Well, SA got nearly all the decisions which helped on the scoreboard. Plus the match was constantly interrupted by long pauses which allowed them to recover when blowing hard. The first half took over an hour!

    Can we put that down to pressure on the officials due to Eramus? Surely some of it.

    The Boks won the match - fair and square - and were the better team. But Erasmus's rant had an impact. And thats real a pity for the game as a whole.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,772 ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    Biggar made an absolute meal of what was a push.


    Curry grabbed kolbes throat in all that too. There was all sort of shenanigans from it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,248 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Biggar was an embarrassment alright for that. Then I saw someone on twitter complain that the push nearly broke his back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,392 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Gatland has taken a very pragmatic approach to this tour. Just like he did with Wales so often. For the latter it was their suffocating defence which kept them in games and their excellent cardio which helped them finish strong.


    With the Lions the players aren't familiar with each other so a very basic gameplan is required. Strong set piece, hard up defence and accurate kicking game seems to be the main tactic. It's not a terrible strategy considering the limited time he has with the players. I think it's one that would've worked out better had we a stronger forward line especially in the backrow. We haven't a player to compare to either SoB or Warburton in 2017. Curry, Laws and Conan are all good players, but they haven't the same game changing ability as the former. And loosehead is a big problem too. Vunipola and Sutherland have struggled a lot.


    The biggest disappointment is the lack of invention in the backlime. Coaching a functioning, structured backline at test level seems to be the hardest thing to do. There's a level of coordination involved that is hard to reach. And it's almost impossible to drill that into a scratch side. But still, we saw much more ambition in the last Lions tour. Yes, Sexton and Farrell is a far better 10/12 axis than anything on the current tour. But my biggest disappointment is that we haven't even really tried to play beyond 10.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,111 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Abysmal entertainment and a terrible advert for rugby. Cant think of a worse match Ive seen ever, in any sport. TMO becoming like VAR, ruining the game.

    KO at 5pm, an 80 minute game with a 10 minute break finished at 7.10pm 😕



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I 100% understand Gatland wanting to be pragmatic, stick to basic rugby, target them in the air.

    I 100% do not understand how Duhan Van Der Merwe fits into this plan.

    Get Conway and Keenan on an overnight flight.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    That would bean admission of having erred in selection. Would never happen.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The primary problem with the strategy is not the backrow. It is overwhelmingly the back 3 who can't field their dinner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,392 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Absolutely the back three has been a nightmare on that regard. I just think the Lions aren't as well equipped to deal with South Africa's forwards as they would have on other tours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Sure it's grand, we just need to kick into space more, it's not like any of their backs are.... <checks notes>... oh 😰....



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    From what is popping up on my social media feed, it looks like SA media and fans are still acting like the refs are siding with the Lions - as bad winners as they are losers. Tone is obviously set from the top by whinger in chief Rassie but it is ridiculous.

    Now really not looking forward to that being brought into our club game and adding fuel to a problem that we're already struggling with.

    Never thought I'd see the day that I'd be commending Gatland for taking the high road and doing what is best for rugby by not dragging things down in the dirt with Rassie.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I'd have very much agreed with you prior to the 1st test but they bossed SA in the air during the first test, especially in the 2nd half.

    Hard to blame Gatland for sticking with them for the 2nd test against the same opposition



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,620 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Even in the first test, the back 3 were very poor defensively. SA kicks found grass consistently, due to Lions defenders being out of position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,503 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Not sure what’s more tedious. Rassie whinging or whinging about Rassie whinging.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,880 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    If you want to play a game where you chase box kicks you want someone who is deadly under a high ball.

    Pity they didn't bring someone like Liam Williams who excels at that.


    Oh wait...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Tom Curry could be surplus to demands in that backrow, I reckon. He's obviously world class, but why waste a spot on a breakdown specialist when the Boks are constantly going to ground in pairs and sealing off? Lions D is solid enough to live without him, especially since the Boks aren't exactly reliant on lightning-quick ball to play their game.

    Any word on PSDT's injury? Might be the reason for Duane V called up? I reckon if they go Kolisi-Duane-Weise you might want one of Beirne or Hendy beefing up that back row instead of Curry.

    The alternative Platonic approach would be to switch it up completely and try get several link-men onto the field. In which case perhaps Lawes could be the one to make way for a back row of Curry, Watson or Beirne, and Conan or Taulupe?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,620 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Would you not feel he's already fielded link men, but not used them? I'd look at that pack and consider them all fairly handy with ball in hand. That was my assumption on how he wanted to play going in to the series



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I agree that it was a stop/start affair and that suited the Boks. Some of that could be accredited to Rassie's rant as the refs took their time with several big decisions.

    However Rassie's rant did not stop the Lions from making line breaks. Did they make any? His rant didn't cause the back 3 to drop the ball. His rant did not cause the scrum to creak or the lineout to fall apart. That's all on the players.

    As for a 20 point turnaround in week. Seen bigger.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I'd agree with this. Rassie may have influenced a few things in thr first half, but he had nothing to do with the Lions capitulation in the second. For me the Lions were the best team in the opening 63, er I mean 40 mins. But they showed basically nothing at all in the second half.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    He used them to some degree in the first test. Lawes and Curry both made 6 passes, while Conan made 4.

    Cut to the second test, Curry made 3, Lawes and Conan both made 2.

    However that fits the wider narrative of the Lions just not playing (or being let play) rugby at all in the second test. Hogg went from 7 passes in the first test to 2. Biggar went from 13 passes to 3!

    They absolutely have to do something about that. Makes Schmidt-ball look like a Cirque du Soleil performance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    Whoever it was on here who suggested the Lions should cite Biggar was dead right. They should also drop him for next week. Don't think I have ever seen such crap on a rugby field.



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