First olympic transgender athlete to compete at Tokyo 2020 **MOD NOTE IN OP**

So maybe one woman at some stage might beat a man's record at some stage in the future in a niche sport that has very few people contend in. That may happen some day.

But surely the overwhelming majority of sports will always have a biological male record holder.

I find your consistency compelling. I don't have any moral or ethical issue with all genders competing together in the same sporting events. I believe that most of those events would be overwhelmingly dominated by men, due to increased power, strength, speed and spatial awareness. In terms of safety, I am less concerned. If the male athletes injure their female competitors, self preservation and decent refereeing should result in less serious injury than we might think. The only issue is what this will do for amateur participation rates amongst women. The social and health benefits of grassroots participation far outweigh what happens in any given Olympic event. How many women would take up amateur boxing if it were a mixed only event? I'm sure a couple would give it a shot but it certainly would be detrimental to participation numbers, which to me is the main goal of all sport.

If sports were to remain as they are, then I’d agree with you that the answer to that question is essentially yes, given that we know there is a gap in performance between men’s and women’s events of approximately 10% across a variety of events -

However, there just isn’t enough data to make as confident a prediction IMO regarding the future of sports and sports participation given it stands to reason that Chris Mosier is only the first female to male transgender athlete competing at elite level in male events - in the future there is likely to be greater participation among transgender athletes in both the male and female categories, and THEN we will have more data to make more accurate predictions of outcomes. As it stands, and you pointed this out earlier yourself - we simply don’t have enough data, and the data we do have is only useful in providing evidence of correlation, not strong enough to provide evidence of direct cause as it relates to physiological factors. There are numerous factors which will undoubtedly affect the future of sports, not the least being the challenges presented by changes in society and law, but also challenges presented by changes in the rules of sports and changes in the sports themselves -

Even the future of the sport of weightlifting itself as an Olympic event is in doubt without reform -

I’m fully in agreement with you that the social and health benefits of participation at grassroots level in sports is more important as far as I’m concerned too than breaking records at Olympic and World events, but I don’t understand where you’re coming from in suggesting that anyone is arguing for mixed-only events? There will continue to be segregated events, and there will be women who will want to participate with men in sports, and men who want to participate with women, and people who demand others be excluded from participating for their own reasons.

It’s precisely because sports were traditionally seen as men’s pursuits that women were excluded from participating, but we know that women’s participation in sports has been increasing since they were permitted to participate in sports and recognised by governing bodies at local, national and international level. Granted they have never received the recognition and respect that men’s sports has received, but that’s more due to social factors than it has anything to do with women’s participation and achievements in sports.

If you watched the documentary with Anna Geary for example where she set about investigating why young women drop out of sports or choose not to continue to participate in sports, the biggest reason for the decline in their participation is because sports are taken too seriously, they’re just not fun, and this isn’t just an Irish phenomenon, but it’s been recognised internationally as the reason why it’s not just young women are dropping out of sports, but also young men too - the pressure being put on them to be the next Olympic Games champion is just too much for many of them to bear and means they’re more prone to injuries and more unlikely to want to continue to participate in sports -

Participating in sports with young men isn’t what’s putting young women off sports, it’s quite the opposite - it’s because they are discouraged from participating in sports, and they aren’t actively encouraged and supported in participating in sports, when they want to participate and compete with young men in sports, while men are encouraged from a very young age to take risks and are supported to participate in sports.

Participation in sports among transgender youth is only in it’s infancy, and rather than inventing policies to ensure their exclusion from sports, they should be encouraged to participate in sports at local or grassroots level, because that’s how they become visible at national and international level, by being given the same opportunities to participate as everyone else, without inventing policies which ensure their exclusion from participating in sports -

It hasn’t escaped my attention that you’re suggesting there is ‘a mountain of science’ that says what you want it to say, and yes, there is, and I’ve already pointed out that the reason why there isn’t ‘a mountain of science’ in relation to transgender athletes is because there just aren’t that many of them are participating in sports at any level. It also hasn’t escaped my attention that you dismiss any evidence which doesn’t correspond neatly to your already held beliefs, yet you imagine you’re in any position to make predictions about the future of sports based upon historical evidence which doesn’t at all include transgender athletes performance at all.

My point has never been that women will overturn all recorded history and knowledge of physiology, it’s that the data you’re using to make the predictions you’re making with any degree of certainty, is what is irrelevant to the question of the future of either women’s or men’s participation or competition in sports, let alone the future of the sports themselves.

Fair enough, I’ll try and be brief 😂

The events you’re suggesting, already exist, there doesn’t have to be a need to make all men’s events open categories, or women’s events open categories, or make mixed-only events. The Gay Games for example -

Maintaining or not maintaining women’s exclusive events will not affect women’s participation, any more than maintaining or not maintaining men’s exclusive events will affect men’s participation. When the Director of Science and Medicine on the IOC Committee is of the opinion that “science has moved on”, and “everyone agrees that transgender women are women” (I’m assuming they’re referring to everyone on the IOC Committee, and not everyone in general), then your suggestion becomes even less likely.

There just isn’t enough evidence to suggest that women’s participation would be adversely affected by the participation of transgender athletes in sports. For example one of the new events at the Tokyo Olympics was the 400m mixed relay - women participating with men, men participating with women, and there were no women or men stropping off claiming they don’t want to participate with each other.

Your suggestion that women’s participation in sports would be adversely affected on the basis that people who are transgender are permitted to participate in sports in accordance with their gender just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, when there are far greater factors which affect women’s participation in sports which have nothing to do with the participation of people who are transgender.

If people don’t want to participate in sports because other people aren’t being excluded from participating in sports, then I don’t have an issue with them not wanting to participate. It just doesn’t stand to reason that the vast majority of women will not want to participate in sports because of the participation of people who are transgender, when we know that anyone’s participation in sports is determined by many other factors besides just who they’re competing against at an elite level. Were there to be any logic to that rationale, then nobody but medal winners would participate in sports, which is arguing a foregone conclusion without any credible evidence to support it, particularly when at the Tokyo Olympics there are 11,000 athletes participating and the gender balance is almost 50/50 across 400 events in 50 recognised sports.

What you’re arguing for is what suits you, but you can’t fail to acknowledge that your suggested solution makes no difference to those people who aren’t satisfied with it? Because what you’re suggesting already exists, and it’s because it already exists that the IOC guidelines are being challenged by people who are excluded from participating in accordance with their gender without being required to undergo unnecessary medical interventions. It’s that and a whole lot more, which is currently putting women off participating in sports, than the idea of people who are transgender participating in sports. The issue of people who are transgender participating in women’s sports is only one issue, one that more men are highlighting as an issue, than many issues which women in sports are highlighting as issues which they are currently being affected by which inhibits their participation in sports.

What you’re doing is trying to limit the parameters of the discussion to that which suit you, and expecting I’ll adhere to only what you wish to discuss, and what you say is or isn’t up for debate, when that’s exactly what’s being debated because it is on that basis that transgender athletes are excluded from participating in sports with women! That’s not going to happen, I’m not limited to going down YOUR little road. My point regarding the 400m medley was clear, you’re choosing to turn it into something else rather than directly addressing the point which was that women were competing with men and none of the athletes were complaining about having to participate either with men or women.

You’re even going so far as to assume I would support a policy I haven’t even seen yet, but from what I’m aware of, there are concerns that the IOC will reduce the 10nm limit to 5nm in line with the WA, possibly for specific events as the WA have done in ensuring that athletes like Dutee Chand and Caster Semenya are excluded from participating in events between 400m and 1 mile, but permitted to participate in the 5,000m or 200m events as a consequence of their being as you put it ‘androgenised people’.

I’m less concerned about the pronoun police trying to change language now than I am about the tiny number of people who are coming up with all sorts of convoluted nonsense terms to avoid having to say “women”, as though they imagine the language they’re using is more accurate or appropriate. Could almost be an Olympic event in itself 😂

Anyone, regardless of their gender or sex, is competing at the Olympics for all intents and purposes to represent their nation (even the makey-uppy nation like the ROC which allowed for athletes to compete because Russia was banned from the Olympics following a national doping scandal).

Given that’s all you’re trying to discuss is the idea that transwomen should not be allowed to compete in the Olympics in the women’s categories on the basis that they have a ludicrous biological advantage, well yes, that is really, really simple, and it’s already been decided upon and made clear that trans women will not be excluded from competing in the Olympics in women’s events. That’s what’s not even debatable when it’s already been decided upon by the IOC who oversee the Olympics, and I already provided you with the IOC guidelines which you’re apparently choosing to ignore as though they don’t exist when that is the fundamental basis upon which any argument about transgender women competing in the Olympics in women’s events rests. Here they are again, and not because I think you’re not aware of them, but simply as a reminder of what you’re actually referring to -

When the IOC’s medical and scientific director admits that the current guidelines are not fit for purpose, and stresses that a new framework for sports would also focus on safety and fairness, and says that the IOC will put a framework in place for individual sports federations to make their own decisions while stressing that there is no “one size fits all”, and that “trans women are women and you have got to include all women if you possibly can”, then I’d suggest that what appears to be the only important factor as far as you’re concerned, is not the only factor which the IOC who actually produces the guidelines for the sports which are recognised by their organisation uses in determining and maintaining competitive fairness in sports, while also acknowledging their international legal obligations and the legal frameworks in the nations which participate in the Olympics.

I know, I know - “irrelevant” 😏

11,000 athletes compete at the Olympics Podge, you’re not even close if you imagine that they’re all competing to win, even for the most part, simply because there are a limited number of medals available in any event and a number of athletes competing in multiple events. There are numerous reasons why athletes compete in the Olympics, from competing for fun to competing to promote their own politics to competing to be a role model for other people to competing just to compete to set themselves a new personal best in competition.

The reason the IOC are of the opinion that their current guidelines are unfit for purpose is not the same reason you’re arguing they’re unfit for purpose, you’re being deliberately misleading there, in the same way as you’re being deliberately misleading in suggesting that if we ignore historical context, your point still stands - it doesn’t, and we don’t get to ignore historical context simply because it suits your purposes.

Standards ARE being set on how to achieve and maintain competitive fairness in women’s events while acknowledging the social and legal factors which influence their participation in sports, factors which you appear to be determined to disregard as irrelevant, factors which the IOC doesn’t have the luxury of your individual perspective and cannot so easily afford to ignore or dismiss as irrelevant.

The fact that there are no international legal obligations to allow transgender athletes to compete in their chosen category isn’t what I was referring to (NO athletes, regardless of their gender or sex have that right), and I have no doubt you’re aware of that since you chose to offer such a deliberate obfuscation as if it were a legitimate argument. You know I was referring to the fact that in various countries which compete in the Olympics, the laws of their jurisdiction governing transgender people’s participation in society are either limited, written to exclude them, or don’t exist at all, which negatively affects their participation and eligibility in sports and sports competitions. The IOC recognises and is cognisant of this fact where you apparently either can’t, or more likely simply refuse to acknowledge as fact.

I don’t believe for a minute that it’s news to you Podge that there are a limited number of medals available in any event at the Olympics, it was a counterpoint to your argument that all the athletes are there to win. Simple arithmetic would suggest it simply isn’t possible for every athlete to win, unless you’re using a definition of the word “win” that I’m not familiar with?

I don’t know how, having read my post, you could conclude that I was suggesting anyone, let alone women should just be happy to compete in the Olympics, when my point has consistently been about their exclusion from the Olympics, and the arguments which were traditionally used to support their exclusion which just don’t stand up to any sort of scrutiny. You don’t have a credible argument from biology to support their exclusion, because their exclusion clearly isn’t based upon biology, it’s based upon the idea of maintaining a set of social stereotypes which are determined to limit women’s participation in sports.

I haven’t changed what I wrote at all, in spite of what appears to be your going to great lengths to twist what I’ve said and said consistently. Nobody is suggesting that you can’t compete in Olympic weightlifting competitions, what you’re suggesting is that people who want to compete in weightlifting competitions shouldn’t be permitted to, in spite of the IOC guidelines acknowledging that athletes who are transgender must not be excluded from participating in sports - the inference being that they must not be excluded on the basis that their gender is not consistent with their sex.

That’s why policies exist - they determine the criteria for participation, and the criteria under which it is determined to be justifiable and reasonable to exclude participants for the purposes of achieving a legitimate aim. You’re not excluded from competing to be an Olympic weightlifter, it’s just not an automatic right that anyone has. Neither does anyone have the right to determine who their competition will be, notwithstanding the fact that they have a fair idea of their ability to win a medal before they ever arrive in the Olympic village to compete in the Olympics. It still doesn’t seem to put a damper on anyone’s determination to compete in the Olympics and make an appearance on the world stage, in spite of the inference of your argument that people will choose not to participate if they can’t win. I consider that to be an incredibly immature mentality which I wouldn’t wish to ascribe to anyone tbh unless they made it clear that was their intent.

There are no doubt a tiny minority of people who feel that way, but that’s all they are, is a tiny minority, clearly not enough to threaten the purpose of competition and competing in sports competitions. There isn’t going to be any mass exodus of women from women’s sports on the basis of whatever the IOC guidelines are, there is no reasonable basis for that assumption given that there has been no mass exodus from collegiate sports in the US where the NCAA guidelines are what governs competition in sports at that level.

EDIT: No doubt you’re aware of the NCAA guidelines for transgender athletes participation in competition in the US which were written in 2010, but just for reference sake I find their policies to be a useful comparison to the IOC guidelines -

No doubt you’re also aware of the Olympian efforts of politicians in the US to introduce new laws at State level to exclude people who are transgender from participating in sports in accordance with their gender, which would undoubtedly limit their opportunities to participate in competitions such as the Olympics.

Weightlifting

Women's +87kg

All groups

Today·Group A

11:50

Maybe a 6th place finish.

Top female lifters are bigger, stronger, and have more testosterone in their veins that Hubbard ever did.