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Lions Tour

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Teams don't cite players which is just the first in many problems with that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    How about the tediousness of the whinging about the whinging about Rassie's whinging??



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    There was a stat doing the rounds on Twitter that I can’t find, but it was something like Am and Harris both passed once.

    I wonder how many phases over 3 passes either team had? Must be incredibly low.

    As an aside, I saw DDA getting some criticism on here in the first half, but over all I thought he was excellent. Himself and Kolisi the best players on the park, imo. Anyone know who got MOTM in the end?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I don't think comparing the 1st to the 2nd test shows any real change in tactics, as they were completely different games.

    Much easier to 'play' when you have momentum and your opposition is hopeless in the air, making error after error, giving away penalties, and look dead on their feet - which is what SA were in the second half of the 1st test.

    It is like comparing a SH with a pack that is dominating and another with a beaten one. They might have the same tactics but they'll have completely different outcomes.

    Neither SA or the Lions have really showed much 'play' at all, SA's two creative kicks yesterday just came off yesterday when the Lions' didn't. Aside from that it has been turgid stuff from both sides if you're looking for 'play'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Agreed, DeAllende was very tidy. Am was a colossus in defence too. I saw a tweet online that read “there are only 16 people who know what the Lions are trying to do. The 15 lads in red jerseys and Am”



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭Jacovs


    Mapimpi got MOTM. I thought Am might get it instead.

    Other news, seems Duane Vermeulen has joined the Bok camp.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,392 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Sinckler cited for biting. Didn't even see the incident in question. Kolbe very lucky he isn't cited for his foul play on Murray.


    Not been a good tour for Sinkler tbh. Don't think he played well enough to justify his non-selection when the Lions squad was initially announced.





  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I’ve seen Biggar go full soccer a few times now. Rugby would be very hard to ref if that became rampant.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    In Biggar's defence, that wasn't a push. He clearly went in with the elbow



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,561 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Hogg has been disappointing. I’d prefer Williams jumping for those high balls, perhaps with Welshmen Adams and RZ beside him.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Did he not go down after he bounced off Furlong ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah, I suspect that was the worse impact. But the SA player clearly elbowed him into Furlong.


    It was rather innocuous in the grand scheme of things, but it was by far the worst thing anyone did in that scuffle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Yeah, seemed to hit his head pretty hard on another Lions player's shoulder as a result of being blindsided by Mbonambi. Looked nasty.

    But of course we have the armchair experts criticising a player who has recently returned from a head injury.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,620 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    How is Sinckler the only citing out of that match? First I've heard of the alleged biting incident.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,433 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    That's just bizarre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Itoje has to be cited for kneeling on someone's neck. He can't even claim he didn't know. He was punched, took his knee off and then put it back.

    Kolbe should be cited but it was looked at so much in real time I'd be surprised if he was.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,392 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Sinckler is the only player to be cited according to Murray Kinsella.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He most likely knows the person, but it's definitely not his sock puppet account...it's really much ado about nothing as it's only the media and a few obsessed fans paying any attention really



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    The rugby disciplinary system has completely lost its nerve. It's unfit for purpose.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    It was meant more in spirit than in earnest. A kick in the arse would also suffice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    It's been like that for quite some time unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    I watched the hour of Rassie's complaints and he's right about everything. World rugby and refs need to get their act together.

    It's embarrassing seeing so many rugby fans complaining about a shocking refereeing display being held to account.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,203 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    How would you change it?

    How teams cite? who sits on discipline group to decide punishments...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    I would like to see less reductions in suspension lengths for what, at least to me, are frivolous reasons. Change the structure to account for repeated suspension so somebody who has been suspended a few times, even for low end offences gets moved into the medium end of suspension lengths and then quickly into the high end, and the same for how quickly the person was cited and suspended again. More independent so that an incident in the last club match before the six Nations is treated no differently than an incident the week before a tour of a low ranking rugby country. Clarity, explain why a player was or wasn't cited, and then why they weren't suspended if they are found not guilty.

    I have played, coached and been an active member of arlb, and find myself dismayed and losing interest in the game when, what looks like outright thuggery is left unpunished.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Rugby just seems incapable of sticking with any policy to make the game safer.

    Like, two years ago, contact with the head was being punished mercilessly (correctly). Now the default is to look for as many mitigating factors as possible and only the most blatant head-shots are getting a red. Maybe they went overboard initially but I thought that was a good thing, they needed to stick with it so that players got the message. Instead we've been slowing sliding back to the old ways. Like, Bundee Aki knocked Vunipola out cold with a head shot, he has previous, and he only gets one week more than the absolute minimum sanction? (That's not a dig at aki, just the first example that came to mind).

    When you see Faf de Klerk not even being penalised for his high shot on Murray on Saturday, you wonder what the hell has gone wrong. Likewise Kolbe only getting yellow and not cited? Like, every other incident of that type has been a red for the last three or four years. And Kolbe's head-clash on Saturday too, no action even though he made no attempt to avoid it, it's ridiculous.

    Since Sinckler has been cited they must have pretty clear evidence of biting, and I hope he gets a lengthy ban for it - but it's mad that nothing else was deemed worthy of a hearing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    I have no idea but do you know what, a system that only brings forward one player from that game for a hearing is a joke. Saturday was the worst example but we've seen incidents routinely ignored recently.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Looking at the Murray incident again, it's a tricky one. Although his head/face did contact the ground, it only did so after his foot, hand and opposite elbow had. Another player may not have broken his fall as well and landed directly on their head. Another grey area in rugby which you wouldn't be surprised if it was a red or a yellow.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,942 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the very first thing i would do is make the player serve the full ban for the charge they have been found guilty of.

    this "accepted plea" 50% reduction is absolute bull ****. unlike the judicial system where tax payers money goes into paying for the court time, theres no public money that goes into paying for world rugby, or individual competitions citing system.

    there should simply be a committee who reviews the evidence and determines if guilt is proven or not. once proven beyond reasonable doubt then full ban should be applied. the reduction for first offence, accepting plea, apologising, wearing a nice suit etc all should be binned immediately. the committee and commissioner should be confident enough to make the charge , therefore the reduction for plea accepting should not be a factor.

    one repeat offenses then, addiotnal bans can be applied systematically.



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I don't think it broke the skin, lending credence to this who didn't think Sinckler could cut the Mostert



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    BoD was saying on Sunday that in the premiership using your arms to break your fall is disregarded in terms of mitigation and that's 100% right.


    WR seem to be waiting for a player to be carted off straigth to the morgue from the field of play before they do anything.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can understand that, but Murray's foot hit the ground before anything. It's going to be a very difficult one to come to an agreement that everyone is happy with. It's easier for a player coming into the ball to jump for it than a player chasing the ball. Will they get to the point where you can't go for the ball unless you jump to compete? IF your eyes are on the ball, how do you know that another player is jumping for it? Will they make it that only the defending side can catch an attacking kick?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    We already had all these discussions back in 2014 after the Payne incident. Unless they've changed something, having eyes only for the ball isn't seen as an excuse. If you are not in a realistic position to catch the ball, you are penalised if you cause a dangerous fall. Then the sanction is based on how the player lands, which, admittedly, is still a grey area. Kolbe incident could have been red or yellow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Hmmm, that post probably comes across as me telling you stuff I'm sure you already know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Kolbe on Murray was a yellow card. Murray lands foot, hand and then head. Kolbe was fortunate that Murray ended up landing that way but thats the way it panned out. Yellow was the correct call.

    His head on head earlier should have been a yellow too mind you.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I thought yellow was the fair call for Kolbe due to how Murray landed. If it had been red, I would have had no problem with it.

    I think both captains should have been yellow carded for the carry on afterwards though. There was nothing clear in melee that warranted a card. Just lots of pushing and shoving and tough guy talk. Would love to see a ref say I warned you both about this earlier, you need to control your players. You didn't so you both sit down for 10 minutes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,620 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I disagree that it should only be a red. Le Roux made a similar challenge on TOH, that ultimately led to him going off. Ref mitigated it down to a yellow because TOH's back hit first. The fact that a body part other than the head hits first doesn't change the fact that a players head strikes the ground with dangerous force. There's plenty of people in jail on manslaughter for exactly that reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭connemara man


    He and Curry technically should've got yellows for being the flash point for the schmozzle that the ref had said earlier


    Next one of these yellows all round and he technically should've got a red that way



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Le Roux subsequently got banned too


    I think refs are now afraid to issue reds because of the "game ruined" crap that gets bandied about afterwards.


    Murray foot hit the ground but his balance took him over and his head hit the ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,842 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    I'm still baffled how Kolbe got away with the head clash on Curry.

    Some have described it as a "rugby incident", but surely that's a cop out. I wonder if the fact that Kolbe came out second best saved him.

    The one replay angle we saw of De Klerk's hit on Murray suggests it may have been at worst a penalty for a no wrap tackle, but given the intense scrutiny some incidents get I'd like to see have another angle to know for sure whether contact was made with Murray's head.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,620 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Kolbe's tackle was worse than the one Aki was sent off for against England imo. Pretty jumped head first into Curry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,620 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Any chance Porter will have healed by Saturday? Get him in for Sinckler if he cops a.ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    For me the worst part of the officiating in the game was after Kolbe on Murray. I 100% agree that yellow was correct there. But then when there was an opportunity to balance it up with a card for Curry, O'Keefe immediately called the TMO into action, referencing his earlier statement about guys running in being carded. There was nothing to see from the Lions, but Mbonambai clearly ran in and elbowed Biggar in the back. Ran in. The exact thing O'Keefe was saying he was going to card. And nothing. He couldn't even it up and show a lack of bias so he did nothing instead. That really pissed me off. Not as much as the Lions capitulation in the second half, but still....



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Willie Le Roux charged in from 20 metres away too, right in front of OKeeffe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Yeah I think the ref should have carded guys from both teams for the crap after the Kolbe incident. It would have been a ballsy call and not one many refs would make. I could see Owen's doing it and maybe Barnes. Can't think of many others that would have the guts to make that call.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,842 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    I wonder why Angus Gardner wasn't selected for one of the Lions tests. He is probably the most high experienced SH ref at the minute (after Peyper).

    Likewise Poite?

    Also, I wonder if it will benefit the Lions to have Raynal this weekend. A 6Ns and Champions Cup ref might benefit them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Rassie to face a hearing for his educational video 😉

    https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/rassie-erasmus-to-face-misconduct-hearing-over-criticism-of-refereeing-in-first-lions-test-40712706.html



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,489 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    O'Keefe clearly wanted to do it, but he chose to focus on the complete wrong thing, assuming Curry had done something to kick it all off. Why he didn't expand his check to the players that flew in - including the one who elbowed Biggar in the back - is where he fell down.

    Mind you, if that situation had resulted in a yellow for each team overall I would have been extremely annoyed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Yeah, a yellow each would have been harsh given how little any Lions player actually did compared to Mbonambai. There was a slight bit of pushing from Itoje and Kolbe and then a couple of others. None of those warranted a card really. Mbonambai ran from distance and elbowed a guy in the back. It was substantially more than anyone else did and exactly the kind of behaviour that O'Keefe said he would card both at the start of the game and when he referred the post-Murray thing to the TMO. But he was already going to card Kolbe so only had eyes for carding a Lions player by then.



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