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Michael D struggling with presidential workload.

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He's perfectly right to raise it. If there's a pressure on to rush stuff through without adequate scrutiny, it's a reflection on the Dail and Seanad, not the presidency.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    In our legal framework, the President is one of the guardians of our constitutional order and the constitutional integrity of legislation. That's a rather important job even if some consider it as an impediment to the executive of the state doing whatever it pleases whenever it pleases.

    That he's making comment on the volumes of legislation being put under his nose before a parliamentary recess is proof-positive he's doing his job and takes the job of interrogating legislation seriously - and not acting as a human rubber stamp, as the government are trying to treat him.

    9 separate pieces of legislation to review in one day before Dail holibobs is extraordinary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 86,757 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Legislation enjoys the presumption of being congruent with the constitution unless decreed otherwise by the Supreme Court. The President has those precise powers of either referral to the Supreme Court (the experts so to speak) or a referral to the Council of State to peruse the legislation before kicking it to the SC.

    The President is the first citizen of the State, there is no requirement for him to be a legal savant no more than there is the Minister of Justice (and lots of them most certainly have not been, including the current incumbent). To require him (or her) to be one, or to strip him/her of that power would to interfere with the finely balanced separation of powers and the ultimate primacy of the people in our constitutional makeup. We're not run by a self-selecting coteire of legal boffins drawn from the monoculture of the Law Library, we're a democratic republic where the people are sovereign (perhaps uniquely so in Western democracies, with the exception of Switzerland).

    The President is an incredibly important part of that democratic balancing act, and the office deserves to be respected.



  • Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Big Gerry


    A few years ago we had a referendum to get rid of the senate.

    We should have another referendum to get rid of the presidents office.

    That would probably pass by about 90%.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I think you'd be surprised at the result of such a referendum. Quite apart from miscalculating how Irish people generally feel about the office of President, it's an entirely dangerous idea that would regularly place the Supreme Court in conflict with the Executive, and further disempower the people.

    There may come a day when a deeply illiberal government may take the reigns of the executive, and start stacking legislation on top of each other that will pose a direct threat to our freedoms and the health of our democracy, you'd quickly start regretting not having a President with our freedoms in the direct line of fire of an executive out of control - which is the danger of your proposal.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Considering the referendum to remove the Seaned failed and the president has, for decades at this point, been a generally liked and respected person its just a bizarre, and I strongly suspect utterly incorrect, take.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The Seanad, and the bizarre calcified constituencies, could well do with reform - but I always regarded the attempt to do away with it as a bizarre and actually quite sinister proposal by Enda Kenny.

    The degree to which executive power is concentrated at the cabinet table is already stark enough. It's well within the gift of our constitutional framework to widen this (particularly on a regional/local government level). So that Inda wanted to lop-off of (an admittedly flawed but not beyond reform) a part of democratic oversight should have raised alarm bells. We crow about populism a lot on this site, that was a distilled populist move. And perversely, certain political actors like Regina Doherty who wanted to abolish the upper house now sit as speaker of the very same house when she got her P45 from the good people of Meath East.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost




  • Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Big Gerry


    Any taxi driver I spoke to never had a good word to say about mary robinson.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Big Gerry


    "lliberal government" what do you think we have been living under for the past year ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Let's pull down the constitutional order on the opinion of a surly cabbie then. In fact, let's just put opinionated taxi drivers in charge of the country altogether.



  • Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Big Gerry



    The constitution was already pulled down after the first lockdown.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,724 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    But again we're back to the same problem that he's not qualified to be able to make a decision on whether it's constitutional or not, all he can do is read it and then refer it or sign it. In that case, the fact that he's been asking to do more than usual at the same time, shouldn't make a difference.

    if he's trying to make a broader statement about getting legislation enacted, well, that's up to the Dail to decide, not him, they can produce 50 in one day if they want and he has to read them all and get them signed according to the timeline laid out, I don't believe he's adding any value to the process bar being a constitutinal figurehead that everyone over the age of 35 is qualified for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    We don't want a president deciding on the constitutionality of legislation, that would greatly upset the separation of powers, but his/her powers of referral are an important insurance policy against a potentially undemocratic executive and a strong disincentive to governments who would seek to undermine the constitution.

    That you believe such absolute discretionary powers exercised on behalf of the people are not adding value is entirely beside the point. If the President didn't have such powers, you'd very quickly find out you'd need an office that would have them, because there will be maximalist executives that would take advantage of such a situation in short order.

    Democracies don't persist because of goodwill and crossing our fingers that Franco won't re-manifest himself in Ireland, they exist because of strong checks and balances in our democratic framework and vigilant holders of offices.

    We see populism here, we see it there, we see it everywhere - but a real populist sentiment is disposing of arms of our democracy because they are an inconvenience to our executive. One of the big red flags of a populist is that when they go to bed at night, they dream of unlimited power and unaccountability - a strong democracy has insurance policies against people like that, and our President's discretionary powers are part of that policy. Interfere with it at your peril if you hold democracy close to your heart.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,724 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I completely agree with separation of powers, however, MDH is not qualified to be able to make the determination of whether a piece of legislation is constitutional or not, no president is, so their job is solely to read a piece of paper, then sign it, poring over the paper for longer doesn't make him more likely to catch issues.

    What would work is if there were presidential staff that would read and advise the president accordingly, they could report to the president directly and staffing levels could be set at the pace the Dail produces legislation (this could even be amended to allow more time in the event of multiple pieces arriving at once).

    However, as it is right now, he's reading as a lay man, and signing as a lay man, having more time to do so would add nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    He is absolutely qualified, he is empowered by the constitution as the first citizen of the state with discretionary powers to refer on behalf of the people. This may surprise you but the President of course has legal counsel at his disposal on these matters!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,724 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    You're saying that anyone who wins the votes to be president is qualified, that the mere act of getting a vote more than someone else confers a qualification on someone? That they now have the skill to see unconstitutional legislation when they didn't previously?

    This is of course preposterous, but makes sense in our system where the president is a figurehead, which again makes the reading and signing of legislation a rubber stamping exercise with no real power.

    And again, if they give him 50 tomorrow, he must read and sign them all within the time limit because that is the role. He can complain, as he has, but that is the extent of what he can do.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    No, sorry, hang on.

    MD is one of those people whose character refuses to allow a staff to do all the work for him and simply rubber stamp everything.

    I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy the embellishments of his office. Let's be fair, we all would. He's well to do.

    But I do believe he makes an effort, at least, to personally review, in detail, all legislation and determine its validity. It is one of the few extremely important and vital functions of his office.

    If a bill is repugnant to the constitution, or if he feels it may be, he has an array of tools which he can use to subject it to further scrutiny.

    Where a government is firing bills at him left right and centre at a pace where he feels he can't meet that obligation, then he is right, and duty bound, to call attention to it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Yes, the constitution empowers and quite literally qualifies them to exercise that power at their absolute discretion. I don't understand what you want from the President - do you wish for him to go back to college or something? Our Minister for Justice is a laywoman with a degree in journalism. Her stand-in Humphries is no legal eagle, does this concern you also?

    Do you think the President and the Minister for Justice both rattle around in their mahogany offices without access to advice on matters of legal importance?

    EDIT: And a President could indeed elect to be more interventionist, the executive cannot tell him/her what do on matters such as these in the least. We haven't had such an interventionist President (with the exception of Ó Dálaigh who was bullied out of office), but the power is at his / her fingertips. A government can't flip a President the finger and tell them 'sign this today or else.' That's not factual.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,114 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Remind me - which Article of the Constitution sets out details of his "pro forma signing" role? I've had a look but I can't find those words anywhere in the Constitution.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    How exactly do you expect to change staffing levels on the day the Dáil chooses to send 7 pieces of legislation. You can't magic staff up overnight.

    Anyway, you are correct that MDH does not decide whether legislation is constitutional - that is not his job. He decides whether to send it on to the Supreme Court for them to decide if it is constitutional.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Your attempts at being edgey are in reality spectacularly poor.


    Have you considered trying harder ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr



    The President is doing no such thing, we've seen some sharp work pulled in legislation with regards to the government doing whatever it please and not a word from the incumbent carpet bagger until now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,733 ✭✭✭Allinall




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭touts


    He is an ex sociology professor turned career backbencher. Even if he was fit healthy and in his prime mentally would we want him sitting up late at night trying to read, understand and analyse complex legislation that has taken months or even years to draft by teams of actual experts.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    "complex legislation that has taken months or even years to draft by teams of actual experts."




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