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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just because one persons on couldn't find it doesn't mean it is hard to find



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    With all this discussion about how easy or difficult it might be to locate Sophie's cottage triggered a thought.

    The cottage is not somewhere you would be passing by. It's up a long cul de sac. Whoever murdered her either intended to be there or didn't intend to be there.

    Once you turn off the 'main' road there's little or nowhere you could turn around until you get to the end of the cul de sac where the houses are.

    Could a stranger have taken a wrong turn, driven up to the end of the road and either been confronted by Sophie or knocked to ask directions at the cottage and things happened from there?

    There were a number of cases of women missing in suspicious circumstances from that era (though not that area), could this be another ?

    Post edited by FishOnABike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,682 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    As soon as you turn off the 'main road' you would soon realise you were on a road to nowhere .

    You would hardly drive a kilometre into the unknown.

    There are places to turn around as can be seen in the 1995 aerial view.

    Edit;

    Sorry that came out a bit small .

    You can go to GeoHive maps and zoom in for a better view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Absolutely, and also the gardai had set up a cordon 150 yards from the scene where journalists, including IB, drove in and out of with no problems. There was a quite large area where the press gathered to film the hearse coming out of the cordoned off area.

    Either way, it’s strange to be imagining a stranger getting into an extremely violent fight to the death instead of saying ‘god, I’m so sorry, good night’ while discounting a violent heavy drinker who knew the next door neighbour and the victim ‘to see’ and who lied about where he was that night right up until he was told his partner had retracted his alibi.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This thread seems to reset every 15 pages or so. And the same questions, answers, theories, revelations, excited discoveries are posted. Reading the thread they have all been posted many many times already.

    There is one strange posters who claims to have only a casual interest in the case yet posts long elaborate essays page after page after page. It takes a fair bit of effort to bother with that especially with the new format.

    Regardless, there's nothing new to see here, the first 30 pages were the thread. After that it's just repetition.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Looking at Google Maps street view I couldn't imagine turning around on the 'main' road let alone the cul de sac. The cul de sac is barely wide enough for one car, with grass up the middle and either a ditch or a soft margin on either side.

    When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

    The problem with this case is so many lines of investigation don't seem to have been followed let alone eliminated, leaving so many possibilities still open.

    Were the tyre tracks reported near the gate ever identified? Were they even checked against neighbours cars or main suspects cars for purposes of elimination?



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    So, a respected Irish newspaper is reporting a new lead this morning.

    Jim Sheridan has asked the French Police to look into the person positively identified by Maria Farrell as being the person she seen acting suspiciously before the murder..

    Ok... This going too be a hard sell considering Maria Farrell's reputation is thrashed.

    But consider this....

    Maria Farrell contacted the Garda confidential line several times stating that she had seen a male in a long black coat down by the bridge on the night of the murder. I believe her... She had no reason to lie, and as far as she was aware, her true identity would never be known.

    Poor Maria, not being able to retain the common sense she was born with, decides to respond to a Crime watch plea to contact the Gards again, and decides to use her own house phone... So with her anonymity busted, her troubles began...

    *Note: By this point, the Gards had Bailey down as their man, still couldn't charge him, with the national and international press scrutinizing their every move (every mistake). They were already aware of his scratch hands, his conflicting statements of his movements on the night of the murder, if they could only get a witness to put him in the vicinity..

    The anonymous caller describing a male in a long black coat down by the bridge must have been orgasmic for the Gards. They just had to get her to identify him as Ian Bailey.

    Ok.. So we all know the sordid details of Maria Farrell's ever changing statements. From being the star witness against Bailey, to fully retracting her statement(s) saying she was threatened by the Gards etc...

    Without doubt, the woman cannot be trusted to string two words of the truth together. Her reputation shot to pieces, totally discredited.

    But..... This is what grates me..

    I believe she seen somebody down by the bridge that night. Why would she bother phoning the Garda confidential line otherwise? She wasn't looking for a reward, as she was an anonymous caller. Remember, she was a respected business woman within the community up to that point... (probably having an affair too, but that's her business).

    As previous reports show. Maria Farrell described the person loitering outside her shop watching Sophie as short, medium build with a sallow complexion.. (This was before the Gards jogged her memory to fit Bailey's 6'3 height of strong build & white caucasian).

    When the case imploded as Farrell withdrew her statement, she cited being bullied by the Gards to change her written statements to finger Bailey as the man she seen by the bridge that night, as well as possibly the same man that was outside her shop the same day Sophie was being followed and later murdered.

    She has now stated that she can identify the man she seen following Sophie that day. He is a Frenchman she pointed out from photographs shown to her..

    Regardless of the absolute mayhem she and the Gards have made of this mess. Sophies Family deserve every lead to be followed up, even it that lead runs too near home.

    The French judicial system will not follow up on this lead.. Shur they have a man already convicted for the murder.

    This is Irelands Maddie McCann's case... So much is covered up, so much smoke and mirrors.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This thread seems to reset every 15 pages or so. And the same questions, answers, theories, revelations, excited discoveries are posted. Reading the thread they have all been posted many many times already

    That is true, there is no new info to work with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The thing that keeps coming back to me about Marie Farrells' miraculous conversion to IB's cause is the details of the intimidation she gave the gardai, 17 official complaints and a solicitors letter. Also the fact that the young woman who worked for MF said she did seem frightened of Bailey and asked her to ring the gardai when he came in.

    The most telling thing in my mind is that she told the gardai that he had said to her that he had investigated her past and found she had defrauded the UK social welfare system when she had lived in London. She was investigated for claiming something like 23K that she wasn't entitled to. Why would she tip off the gardai about her running away from prosecution in the UK? She told them Bailey said people have been extradited for less. This does not sound like something she would drag up about herself just to make the intimidation more believable. I think she was intimidated and harassed by him. She said he told her 'I know you saw me at the bridge' and then shouted 'I had no blood on me!' or words to that effect. He allegedly told Yvonne Ungerer the same thing, that he had been seen at the bridge that night but he had no blood on him.

    So, if the intimidation did happen and he was specifically telling her to withdraw her statement about him being at the bridge, I think he knew she saw him. None of the other witnesses, even a teenage boy, who made highly incriminating statements about him were intimidated, that we know of. It was this particular statement he wanted to kill off very, very badly. According to Michael Sheridan, it was also when Jules was told that IB was seen at the bridge that she asked for a break in her questioning and consulted her solicitor. When she resumed her statement she had changed the story entirely, saying he had gotten out of bed and had a cut on his forehead that wasn't there the night before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The miraculous conversion is how she ever identified Bailey in the first place.

    As for remarks to an employee, well if you falsly implicate someone in a murder that's the kind of thing you would say to keep up the pretence.To attach any weight to it is seems to have no foundation.

    Or maybe the local Gardai knew something about her shenanigans and what about the miraculous changes in the value of her house etc and pressured her into changing her statement into identifying Bailey when her original statements did not and described someone of a totally different appearance.

    What sort of 'problems' does a Garda help a witness in a murder trial out with

    The High Court has heard that a recorded phone call between a garda and a key witness in the investigation into the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier suggested a very close relationship... He said he was helping the family with their problems but denied it was part of a pattern of him fixing things up for Ms Farrell... He also denied that he had orchestrated statements from Ms Farrell alleging intimidation by Mr Bailey. 

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0224/682472-ian-bailey/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    From the GSOC report:

    These matters were addressed in the McAndrew report (page 188, paragraph 7.9.67) who found there to be no interference by members of the Garda Síochána with the aforementioned politician on behalf of Marie Farrell. The politician stated that it was Marie Farrell who had contacted him directly and that she had mentioned the detective garda’s name to him. There was no evidence of any undue influence or control in this matter found.

    Marie Farrell also accused a detective of attempted sexual assault when she was supposed to be cleaning toilets at work, only cleaning toilets was not part of her job and she got the layout of the toilets wrong. She also claimed another detective greeted her naked in a holiday rental she was cleaning. She couldn't remember the date or even the year this happened. A witness told IB's case against the state that MF told her she would benefit financially if IB proved his case against the state.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yet you find her conduct "telling" when it implicates Bailey yet you seem to give no credence to her believability on these other points. This is your believable witness? Pull the other one.

    What sort of 'problems' does a Garda help a witness in a murder trial out with?

    Who was Marie Farrell in the car with and why hasn't their real identity come out?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I don’t think you are thinking logically about this. MF could not benefit in any way from her first two anonymous calls, nor her other statements about an unknown man following Sophie and hitchhiking around 100m from where IB was actually staying after an unplanned party. Neither she nor the gardai knew he had slept on the couch at that address on that morning and had no car to get home. That came out later when Gardai made house to house enquiries and was told by the other people in the house. Yvonne Ungerer’s statement corroborated MF’s account of him saying he knew he was seen at the bridge.

    On the other hand, MF allegedly told a woman who used to work for her and who gave sworn testimony in court, that IB could get millions if he won his case alleging police corruption and she (MF) would get some of it. MF also admitted she first contacted IB’s solicitor the same day she was arrested for driving with no insurance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I think all you can say on this point is that Marie Farrell said lots of things.

    Some were probably true and some were not. She's a liar but all liars tell the truth sometimes

    But there's no telling which are which. Where her testimony is concerned, its a circular argument.

    There is little credibility in selecting those of her statements which support your position and presenting them a hard fact, whilst dismissing those which contradict it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    She didn't even identify/describe Bailey at the start, so if you think she was being truthful there by your logic it could not implicate Bailey.

    https://magill.ie/archive/falsely-fingering-sophies-killer

    If it was so anonymous a call how did the Gardai know she was the person who made it?

    And what sort of problems would Gardai help a murder witness out with? And if Bailey was intimidating and interfering with a witness, why isn't he in jail?

    Apparently she'll lie to setup a case against Gardai for corruption, but not plant a lie in a murder investigation that she thinks she might use to her advantage later. Of course she could benefit from it, some people get a kick from such attention and who knows what other 'problems' it might lead to the Gardai helping you out with. Maybe she was telling the truth originally and then something mysterious happened and her short sallow skinned man became Bailey which is pure nonsense.

    Was she lying then, lying now, or just lying all the time - Who knows?

    This is your believable untainted evidence implicating Bailey?

    Ms Farrell said she had seen a man across the road at the time Ms Toscan Du Plantier was in the shop. On the day she answered the questionnaire she saw the same man in the street in Schull and pointed him out to gardaí. Mr Looney said this was Mr Bailey.

    He said Ms Farrell kept talking and talking and he was writing as fast as he could. He noted on the questionnaire that Ms Farrell was very helpful and had said detectives should call to her to her. Mr Looney said the questionnaire, which contained two different coloured pens, was filled out on the one day.

    He said while answering questions about the first two sightings of the man she then left the shop and went onto the street and said he was out there. He said she then pointed out a man he knew to be Ian Bailey but Ms Farrell did not mention a name.

    However he said he could not explain why there was a reference to Ian Bailey on a second page of the questionnaire when at the time Ms Farrell would not have known Ian Bailey.

    He was asked by counsel for Mr Bailey "How did that get in there?" Mr Looney said he could not explain it.

    He agreed it would tend to suggest that she knew Ian Bailey.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0212/679704-ian-bailey/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Polly701


    In the Jim Sheridan doc he is driving near Kealfadda Bridge with MF in car.. He points to the road up which Sophie lived and says that's the road to the house... MF sounds surprised and says 'is it?' as if she didn't know.. As if!!! She lived in the area.. Of course she knew that was the turn off to the house. The woman couldn't lie straight in the bed! She's an attention seeker who I suspect wasn't even out that night.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    She didn't even identify/describe Bailey at the start, so if you think she was being truthful there by your logic it could not implicate Bailey.

    I don’t understand you, she said she did not know the man which means it could not implicate Bailey? That’s exactly the point I am making, if she was being induced to implicate Bailey why did she make these statements on the 25th and 26th of December about a man she could not positively identify?

    If it was so anonymous a call how did the Gardai know she was the person who made it?

    There's so much written about this case, it's worth getting stuck into it. She made an anonymous call from a phone box to say she saw a man in a long black coat at the bridge at 3am. She said she would not make an official statement about this but she would call back. She didn't call back. The gardai then appealed for her to contact them on crimecall in January 1997. She rang again, anonymously and giving the false name Fiona from a phone box. She said she would discuss what she had seen with gardai but could not make an official statement. She then rang again to cancel this meeting, but this time she made the mistake of ringing from her house. Gardai were able to trace this call to her and contacted her to say they had identified her as 'Fiona'.

    Re. the article excerpt you posted, I'd say it is quite likely she knew who Ian Bailey was by the 17th of January, he was the local reporter who was all over the biggest story in the country. The events described are confusing, she identified IB in the street on the same day the questionnaire was being filled out so I am not sure why it is so inexplicable that his name came to be on the form they filled out on that occasion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    She did not originally describe Bailey. Her original description did not match Baileys appearance. It is clear it was not Bailey she saw from the description she gave of the man outside her shop who she said was the same man she saw at the bridge.

    It was only later this man morphed conveniently into the very different Bailey.

    You completely ignore the mystery of how the Gardai cant explain bow baileys name came into the questionnaire with MF or the missing evidence pages for same. If it was so innocently explained as you suggest why the evasions and feigned ignorance expressed in court.

    How common is it for Gardai to track down people who phone the Garda confidential helpline...

    I dont know if MF even saw someone at all outside her shop or at the bridge... but its obvious she did not see Ian Bailey bases on her original evidence and current version ie when she was not being guided by Gardai.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    MoonUnit75 "Her ex-lover had a receipt for a French telecoms company, he had work done on the 23rd and the technician confirmed he had been there when the work was carried out."


    Hang on. He has two alibis. One that he was conveniently getting a telephone installed at his Paris apartment and a second that he was attending an art auction in the South of France. Now to me there is something fishy about having two alibis where the same person is hundreds of kilometres apart at the same time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭redoctober


    Hi. Like you I'm obsessively working through the podcast having watched both docs. I watched Netflix first and thought he's guilty. Then watched Sheridan's and not so sure. Tend to think he's not guilty but seriously suspicious. It's strange that he doesn't have his story straight after all these years. Surely it would be second nature.

    Did anyone notice how Jules says to him on the Sheridan doc " you forget the sequence" when he drunkenly said "let's do this tomorrow" ?!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Where is the account of him being in the south of France? The phone installation was on Monday the 23rd so it is more likely that he was at the art auction over the weekend and was home on the 23rd to sign for the phone in person. The telecoms guy confirmed he was present in his apartment in Paris when the phone was installed on the day the body was discovered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I don't think it's realistic to expect a person to accurately describe the height of someone they only saw from a distance for moments and had no reason to take much notice of. People get this wrong all the time, it's practically a rule for people to say when they meet someone famous 'god he/she is much taller/smaller than I thought'. Marie never met this man, personally I think people are much better at estimating height of people they actually met or interacted with, you can get a good idea from how far you have to look up or down for eye contact. The original statements of MF show she really had no idea how tall the man was.

    How common is it for Gardai to track down people who phone the Garda confidential helpline...

    I'm not sure it was the confidential helpline, my memory of the crimecall appeal is that Smyth asked that person to ring him. Either way, she rang the garda station for the call they traced to her house.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Watching the SKY version I am not necessarily convinced of Bailey's innocence, but pretty much sure that there's plenty of reasonable doubt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Maybe that should give you pause about the value of such casual glances as identifying suspects. But nope you double down with this special pleading. To suggest she wouldnt know if she was looking at someone medium or tall is not credible which you are trying to argue away unpersuasively with this strawman about exact heights in feet and inches.

    She said he was the same height as her husband. Also sallow skinned .

    Bailey is neither.

    It wasnt Bailey.

    You would have some idea looking out your window of whether you were looking at someone smaller average or taller than most other people you gave seen from same view.

    "Two days later, gardaí called on her again, this time with a video tape taken, we understand, on Christmas Day. They asked her to view the tape and see if she recognised the man she had seen on the Saturday afternoon and subsequently. She viewed the tape but recognised nobody. The tape, we understand, prominently featured Ian Bailey at a function a few days previously. The key issue is that Marie Farrell did not identify Ian Bailey as the person she had seen in Schull and later on the road."


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    She testified at the libel trial, in his judgement, after hearing all the evidence and Marie's testimony, he said he thought MF did see Ian Bailey at the bridge that night. In the case against the state, the gardai denied they showed her the video of the Christmas swim in late December as she claimed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭Bazzy


    There's a few things that stand out to me


    Firstly Marie Farrell works in a local shop, At the start of the documentary the pub owner standing on the pier said there was a very low number of people who lived there in the summer 46 or something from memory

    Anyone knows that if you don't know what your doing in rural ireland someone else does ! There's no way on god's green earth she didn't know who Bailey is, I don't believe that for a minute, Small town like that she HAS to of known him or known of him.

    If the guards we're trying to frame him why didn't they take him in when they seen the scratch marks on his hands or at least take a photo the drawing is not very professional.

    Having watched both documentaries i'm not convinced Mr Bailey did it. He's a character alright and I think deep down he's loving the attention but the future is no way bright for him.


    He'll carry a heavy cross to the grave



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The Gardai who cant account for how Baileys name appeared in the log of their chat with MF re witness questionnaire.

    The Gardai who cant find the pages from the evidence book covering some of the MF interviews.

    You are strangely credulous of the Gardai here.

    MF did not see Ian Bailey outside her shop. Some amount of hoops to be jumped through to explain away her description being so far off the actual man.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    @odyssey06 I thought I had read about a video tape somewhere before but couldn't find it again.

    It does seem strange that Marie Farrell failed to pick out Ian Bailey four days after seeing someone at Ballyrisode / Kealfadda bridge but identified him a month later even though he would look nothing like the person she described in her original statements.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    It's not possible the gardai knew IB slept on the couch after a random party on the 21st/22nd 100m from where MF said she saw a man hitching, when she made that statement on the 25/26 December or that Bailey hadn't driven there himself. At that point there were many potential suspects, I think it was Leo Bolger who said the Gardai seemed so suspicious of him and questioned him so much that he contacted a solicitor in case they charged him. MF made that statement two or three days after the murder. The gardai didn't find out that Bailey hadn't been at home like he said he was until sometime around mid-January.

    So, my questions are, why would Bailey completely omit that he had been at that party on the night before the murder and spent the night? Why did he lie about being in bed all night on the night the murder took place? He only corrected the statement about being at home all night on the Saturday night after bizarrely questioning the people in the house after the gardai had been there, to find out what they told them. I think the most likely answer is that he recognised seeing MF or her van on both occasions. We know from his own admissions that he placed himself elsewhere for each of these sightings and both accounts were false.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭nc6000


    I understand she made the call from her house because she thought they wouldn't be able to trace it as her number was ex-directory.



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