Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Mr. Cats · 04-08-2021 7:26am

Article in IT this morning wondering what if the DART had been Mannixed back in the day.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/r%C3%B3is%C3%ADn-ingle-we-should-give-thanks-that-the-dart-wasn-t-mannixed-back-in-the-day-1.4637783?mode=amp

Few posters on here need to realise it’s not just a few cycling fanatics pushing an agenda. The general public wants this infrastructure, is delighted with the developments like Dun Laoghaire to Blackrock, and understands why its important for health and environmental reasons.

Objectors here are really on the wrong side of history. Like objecting to smokey coal bans cause you like a natural fire.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 7:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702753#Comment_117702753

They removed vehicular lanes, and built cycle lanes. They also made roads one way, and closed off others for vehicular traffic. There was bigger objections than in Ireland by motorists who saw themselves as much more important than anyone else. However, sense prevailed and even the most ardent anti-mobility motorists saw that it was better for everyone.

First Up · 04-08-2021 8:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702924#Comment_117702924

No, I don't drive a truck but looking around my house I see a lot of things that were delivered by one, including the furniture. fittings and most of the house itself.

I suspect yours has too - quite possibly including your bicycle.

First Up · 04-08-2021 8:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702933#Comment_117702933

I will welcome the infrastructure too, along with all the health and leisure benefits it brings.

Now could we please find a CEO for DCC who has the brains to figure out a way to do it without disrupting the transport system and endangering the population of Sandymount?

Weepsie · 04-08-2021 8:43am

This plan predates Owen Keegan, so it's not some folly planned out to stick it to the people of sandymount.

Deliveries won't stop because of a road is made one way. Logistics companies deal wih this all the time and deal with bigger issues

Trudee · 04-08-2021 8:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702933#Comment_117702933

Extract from IT article -

” In those early weeks and months of the pandemic, when the streets of the capital were empty of cars, Dublin City Council workers were, to me anyway, like a gang of hardworking fairies sprinkling safer cycling infrastructure all over the city.”

what does Roisin have on the IT that they commission this sort of sub standard writing, a junior cert English student would be embarrassed to submit this effort.

Seth Brundle · 04-08-2021 8:54am

The Dutch economy isn't based around people cycling along the canals of Amsterdam. They accomodate both and so should we.

The issue is that we don't. There is very little cycling infrastructure in Ireland never mind Dublin. Most of what is deemed cycling infrastructure was designed and built with a view of removing something from in front of drivers. Cyclists were never consulted about it and unsurprisingly it has since been shown to be dangerous or inconvenient or both.

When you say that "we should", we're trying to but you have opposition from people who don't want to lose their driving entitlements. Look at Griffith Ave where people still park on the cycle lanes. Look at BusConnects which has been watered down mainly because of NIMBY residents and backbone-less politicians. Look at the absence of guidelines from the NTA on how cycling infrastructure should be built. Currently, councils still design and build cycling infrastructure having been shown that it will not work and that to not follow the tried and tested Dutch model is foolish. However, this is generally done to suit drivers.

Then you look at the infrastructure built recently such as the plastic bollards put along some cycle lanes. This still does not stop some drivers parking on the cycle lanes meaning cyclists must move onto the road. This deters nervous cyclists from cycling. Unfortunately some of the worst at doing this are the gardai themselves. The absence of adequate enforcement is unbelievable. The widespread experience is that Gardai are generally disinterested in agressive driving towards cyclists. Despite Shane Ross announcing the law change that meant drivers who inconvenience or endanger cyclists will be liable to both points and a fine. However, not once have the gardai used this, despite my request, since it was introduced when I presented camera evidence to AGS.

No, I don't drive a truck but looking around my house I see a lot of things that were delivered by one, including the furniture. fittings and most of the house itself.

I suspect yours has too - quite possibly including your bicycle.

Are you suggesting that deliveries would not be possible had the Sandymount trial gone ahead? If so, why would deliveries not have been possible?

Seth Brundle · 04-08-2021 8:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703033#Comment_117703033

How do you propose to create a safe segregated cycle lane along a similar route that won't disrupt "the transport system"? How was the population of Sandymount endangered by a cycle lane?

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703003#Comment_117703003

That explains why you don’t know what a HGV is then. Thanks for clearing it up

Nothing in my house was delivered to by truck. I got a lend of a van to pick up sofas etc. One bike was delivered by a courier in a van, other bikes were picked up from the shops they were bought in by using public transport to get there. So all these trucks you are so concerned about are delivering items for private individuals to your favourite destination of the East Link bridge. How odd!

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 9:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703033#Comment_117703033

More hyperbole.

MangleBadger · 04-08-2021 9:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703033#Comment_117703033

How is a cycle lane endangering the population of Sandymount?

First Up · 04-08-2021 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703192#Comment_117703192

How do you think stuff gets from the factories to the warehouses and shops? How does stuff get from the cargo ships to where it needs to go next? Motorised transport has been central to the quality of life for 100 years and society is the better for it. Of course there can be problems in merging it with a road network that largely pre-dates it. That needs planning and innovation to solve - not confrontation and either/or solutions.

First Up · 04-08-2021 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703288#Comment_117703288

It isn't the cycle lanes. Its the trucks and cars that Keegan wants force through the village and side roads to accommodate the cycle lanes.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703383#Comment_117703383

Making Strand Road one way will not stop goods being delivered. The Dublin Tunnel was specifically built to remove trucks from the city. Trucks going to and from the port (north and south) are meant to use it. How do you think deliveries happen on other one way roads?

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703396#Comment_117703396

You mean the trucks removed from the area?

Flinty997 · 04-08-2021 9:56am

I'm not getting this. They want trucks to deliver to the door but not use the roads outside their houses....?

First Up · 04-08-2021 9:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703421#Comment_117703421

They will only be removed from Strand Rd. Nobody knows for certain where they will go instead (Keegan said he doesn't care) but those trying to reach the East Link and the Port will have to find a way.

magicbastarder · 04-08-2021 10:00am

i am trying to remember the last time i have seen a HGV delivering anything to anyone's house around here. the biggest vehicle i can remember seeing was probably a delivery to my house of cubic metre bags of topsoil, from a grab truck. or a skip bag truck.

Macy0161 · 04-08-2021 10:04am

Aren't all these HGVs supposed to be banned anyway? The lack of enforcement is a great advert for a camera enforced cordon (which could also be repurposed for congestion charging down the line when the city grows up).

04-08-2021 10:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703484#Comment_117703484

Either you don't get out and about much or they've mastered teleportation of heavy goods which were formerly transported on heavy goods vehicles(HGVs).

strawdog · 04-08-2021 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702933#Comment_117702933

No comments allowed in the article so they decided they didn't want any debate on this, which also sums up DCC's attitude in this. Its not always my cycleway or the highway, there was genuine problems with this route which is an artery for the port. You can't just magic away that kind of traffic and not cause problems elsewhere. The changing of the buses on to Park Avenue has already made that road way more treacherous. There could be some inventive solutions such as boardwalks and use of the big wide stretch of grass way along the strand similar to Clontarf. They need to go back to the drawing board, but easier just to say its close minded nimbyism

First Up · 04-08-2021 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703484#Comment_117703484

We are not talking about HGVs.

magicbastarder · 04-08-2021 10:18am

you were the one talking about getting things to and from factories and cargo ships. you can't move the goalposts now.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 10:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703477#Comment_117703477

They have a way. The m50, and Dublin Tunnel. That is the route they are supposed to take. You know that already though.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703563#Comment_117703563

He doesn't know what a HGV is, so there is no point in arguing it with him. The goalposts are constantly moved when he is picked up on his lack of understanding.

Peregrine · 04-08-2021 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703563#Comment_117703563

He can and he will. He's been doing it for months.

04-08-2021 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703540#Comment_117703540

Everyone who is against this must be a NIMBY.

First Up · 04-08-2021 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703603#Comment_117703603

Do you think cars, trucks and vans will do that?

Trudee · 04-08-2021 11:02am

Also in ‘IT’ today -

Sir, – The commentary concerning the High Court judgment last week on Dublin City Councils’s proposals for the cycleway on Strand Road, Sandymount, is overblown, bordering on the ridiculous. The phrase used by the council’s chief executive Owen Keegan, “devastating consequences”, on the development of cycling infrastructure is one example (News, July 31st). Another is his reference to the “enormous hurdle” of having to follow the planning process.

What the judgment requires of the council is very simple. It must go through the planning process because it requires both environmental and appropriate assessments.

The objective of a planning process is to provide proper planning and development.

It obliges developers to seek approval for their projects through a public procedure in accordance with criteria that have been developed since the 1960s, which results in either the granting or refusal of permission for developments.

Surely the council, as the developer in this case, should be leading by example in honouring this process to the full rather than castigating it as an “enormous hurdle”? – Yours, etc,

PAULA CLANCY,

Sandymount, Dublin 4

04-08-2021 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703807#Comment_117703807

Pah, NIMBY.

04-08-2021 11:18am

The bike lanes here run by the river and bikes are brought off the main road and down by the river through green areas to make the experience(at least in summer) more enjoyable. That would have required investment by the Council and a bright Spark thought it would be easier to just ignore planning regulations and close off a lane to vehicular traffic. The green areas on the strand are at least 1.2km long.

Here the bikers are given opportunities to dismount and avail of the amenities along the way but not so in Sandymount where the plan is for a cyclist super-highway.

I'd suggest that the person responsible for this knew exactly what they wanted to do which was not to promote bike usage on this particular route but to prevent cars from entering or even bypassing the City via this route to the east of the city.

Cyclists are just pawns but hey...bike lane...must be good.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703753#Comment_117703753

How many times do you want to go around in these same circles? The port is a destination for a very small percentage of vehicles using Strand Road. Anyone with access to the m50/Dublin Tunnel would logically use it rather than Strand Road. So that is the vast majority of the country. HGV's should be using the m50/Dublin Tunnel route already regardless of where they start. How many cars and vans do you think are going to the port daily?

04-08-2021 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703913#Comment_117703913

I already provided links as evidence on thread that the port is a huge employer and many people work there. Many people who don't work there would have reason to visit to collect or deliver goods or services and the most direct for a sizable proportion of the population approaching from the south of the city is via Stand Road.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703910#Comment_117703910

So there are no places to divert off the proposed Strand Road cycle track into Sandymount to go to businesses there? Go on...tell us another one, you are good at the jokes!

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703939#Comment_117703939

They can still approach from south of the city. No one is denying access to the port.

04-08-2021 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703951#Comment_117703951

Except making it extraordinarily difficult to the point of making it impractical.

04-08-2021 11:28am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers#Ireland

Q: Where does Owen Keegan fit in to this.

A: He doesn't.

Judge was correct to put him back in his box.

04-08-2021 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702933#Comment_117702933

Such a ridiculous badly written article.

Ingle talks about wanting better cycling infrastructure in the city and then she bemoans the Court judgment re Strand Road.

She isnt a car driver and so is in a tiny minority of adults and yet she wants the city to evolve around her choices. She fails to address the issue about where the displaced traffic now using the East Link is to go,most of it wont go to the M50, if this was a convenient route for those using the East Link they would be using it already.

The vast majority of this traffic will access the Northside of Dublin by diverting onto the Merrion Road and into the city centre turning at Haddington Road or else continuing on and going down Pearse Street and onto Amiens Street. Hundreds of cyclists use this route out of the city everyday so how is closing Strand Road to North Bound traffic going to help them,it will make these roads much busier and more dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists as well as motorists.

Can any of the ardent cyclists here explain where the displaced traffic is to go.

Why wasnt the road closed temporarily for a few weeks with bollards, this wouldnt cost very much money and the effects of this plan would be transparent for all to see. I would be happy for this to be trialled like this but the underhand way of using Covid as an excuse to ram through "temporary proposals" is very undemocratic and its important that the Judge in this case took a stand on behalf of those who would have been so adversely affected by this plan.

What is the situation with the other "temporary" Covid measures,eg making Seapoint Avenue one way, will planning permission have to be sought for this now too. I think this road should be reopened from October to March, there will bevery little cycling on it once the weather turns as its mostly used by people walking the pier and swimming in the forty foot and many of these people could walk or take the Dart to Dunlaoghaire instead of cycling.

I used to like walking on Seapoint Avenue towards the sea but stopped last year as it is deserted in the evenings, I would like cars back on it this winter as the only other option is to walk on Monkstown Road which is snarled permanently with traffic.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703962#Comment_117703962

There will probably be a certain shift in forms of transport used for some people. For those who insist on driving, is turning the steering wheel left or right (while using the indicators please!) really that difficult? As a motorist, I don't think so.

Seth Brundle · 04-08-2021 11:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703540#Comment_117703540

In terms of your comment about DCC not wanting debate, would you care to remind us all of the number of consultations DCC held over the trial?

You make the comment that the route is an artery to the port. Are you saying that the majority of vehicles are travelling to the port?

As for the rest of your post, it really is nonsense which has been shown to be wrong.

04-08-2021 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703973#Comment_117703973

Is heading west really what you want to be doing when you know you should be heading north east.

04-08-2021 11:35am

I use the Strand Road a lot to get to Clontarf and this route is very heavily trafficked.

If I cant go via Strand Road I will drive into the City Centre, turn at Lincoln Place,onto Pearse Street and then onto Amiens Street.

Its not as direct a route as using the East Link but I wont have to pay the toll.

I wont cycle this distance and nor will I get the Dart or get a bus into town and another in the city centre to Clontarf.

There are thousands of people like me who just enjoy driving our cars.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704008#Comment_117704008

You make a very silly argument. When driving from Dublin to Galway the road does not always go due east. Should people refuse to drive there as sometimes they are not facing their destination?

tomasrojo · 04-08-2021 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703971#Comment_117703971

"She isnt a car driver and so is in a tiny minority of adults"

This isn't true in Dublin. Within the canals, there are plenty of households, according to the census, that don't have a car.

From

https://irishcycle.com/2020/05/10/data-in-images-cars-in-dublin-city-centre/

magicbastarder · 04-08-2021 11:46am

"There are thousands of people like me who just enjoy driving our cars."

so you mean you're clogging up strand road for your enjoyment? what a weird way of spending your time. you should take up a hobby. cycling, maybe?

Flinty997 · 04-08-2021 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704019#Comment_117704019

If you enjoy driving through heavily congested routes this must make it more enjoyable.

Fighting Tao · 04-08-2021 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704083#Comment_117704083

I have walked from Merrion Gates via Strand Road and Sean Moore Road, and got to the East Link bridge quicker than motor vehicles. I wonder if people who just enjoy driving their cars are responsible for the slowness of traffic along the route.

04-08-2021 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704045#Comment_117704045

Everything not aligning with your world view is "silly". I suppose if I head west for 25000km I will eventually comeback to where I came from and then just adjust by a fraction of a degree along the way to get to the north of the Liffey.

Weepsie · 04-08-2021 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703939#Comment_117703939

Google is a massive employer but they don't all drive. Same for the airport, same for most any large MNC in Dublin.

Port is a 30 min walk from docklands station, a 25 min walk from the Luas stop.

They 53 goes from Talbot Street into the port too on the hour from 7-7.

All 4000 of those employees are not in there at the same time. And you're right they're not all coming from the nrthside but they're not all coming through sandymount either.

It's a round the clock operation, many travelling off peak too.

Say you are coming from the south. Leoparddtown maybe, it's a far longer route on the m50, but it's quicker at peak times then taking on the urban/city route. Now the m50 can of course have truly awful days when the opposite is true but there it is

So you provided a bit of data on how many work there, but offered no context with it, so it's not really a useful argument to make if you're not willing to examine the whole picture.

People travelling by car will still be able to get to the port.

magicbastarder · 04-08-2021 11:55am

a colleague of mine used to complain about how long it took him to get to work. he drove from killester to leopardstown; and was heard to complain about being stuck at the merrion gates. this was despite the fact that he lives less than 10 minutes walk from killester dart station and there's a bus service from blackrock dart station to our building.

i just enjoyed the irony that he complained about being stuck because of the alternative mode of transport he'd probably have been quicker using anyway.

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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