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Homecare packages - yet another HSE shambles

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24

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    #32
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 12,038 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702957#Comment_117702957

    What we did was sew a hidden pocket into their clothing and hide a tracker in that. Though its only useful for a short time, as many will need 24hr supervision eventually, and secure accommodation.



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    #33
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 12,038 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703025#Comment_117703025


    I don't think they were saying families should pay more but the state should pay more.

    But it costs a lot more to provide care in a one to one setting at home. Than it does in nursing home where a few carers can look after many people at the same time because they are in the same location.

    There are disadvantages and advantages to both and many people prefer to be at home. But that's the economics of it unfortunately.



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    #34
    mariab21
    Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭mariab21


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702802#Comment_117702802

    Do you not think we should have higher standard across the board by carers and having to shop around to find a suitable carer?



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    #35
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 12,038 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703457#Comment_117703457


    Sure.

    But fixing the system is entirely different to fixing your immediate issues with an agency.



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    #36
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703457#Comment_117703457

    You can tell which carers are useless just by looking at them,however hse just take anyone who ticks the boxes and private companies take anyone willing to work for peanuts



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    #37
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,328 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    One of the good or actually great carers my family member had was on peanuts, a shade over minimum wage she told us... the managers and team leaders were driving around in 50,000 euro spec’d SUV’s which were for no more then visiting clients and going to meetings....there was about four or five of them in their fleet. We’d presume leased but who knows...

    she asked them in a meeting wtf was the craic, could they not have Ford Focus or the like and was told they were for branding/advertising so a big vehicle was necessary... as their client the HSE... were obviously already aware of who they are...they were disputing that..

    she was earning then 11 euros per hour.



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    #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    @Strumms she was probably paying her own driving costs out of that minimum wage too.



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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704208#Comment_117704208

    No. They do get a mileage allowance. I seem to remember remember some controversy over travel time being included in their wage being changed to a mileage allowance.



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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704291#Comment_117704291

    That’s good. I know the agency we have right now offer mileage The wear and tear on their cars on the backroads round here would take a big chunk of it though.

    It’s a tough job and doesn’t suit everyone but I admire anyone that gives it a go at least. All the fetac courses in the world won’t prepare you for what’s in store.



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    #41
    scheister
    Registered Users Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭scheister


    Over the years my mum has had both a home help and someone to assist her with washing, I cannot fault either of them but the system is a different thing.

    The home help went on long term sick leave and was never replaced.

    There is also a limit to what they can do due to "health and safely". The washer is unable to put the bath seat in the bath in case she puts her back out. I dont mind doing this myself but would like the back up to be there for the odd time that I forget to do it.

    The home help was unable to do any tasks where her feet were not on the ground for example washing windows where a step ladder may be needed in case she fall off.

    I would never want to put anyone in danger but appears "health and safely" is used where they want to remove risk from the long shots of dont want the staff to be trained correctly.



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    #42
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117702740#Comment_117702740

    FF/FG are in the business of organizing care now? I thought they were political parties.

    Can you please provide a link showing where these political parties are now involved in procurement and oversight of care and that they have side-stepped the HSE is in performing this activity?



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    #43
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Things have gotten worse since the first post. A staff member from one of the agencies went on annual leave, she said she booked this months ago. Result, a reduced number of care hours, no cover in place, lots of excuses and "shur what can we do" with the HSE blaming the time of year. Also, communication non existent, I had to inform the HSE what was happening. They should have been informing me that the agency THEY ENGAGED wouldn't be providing the agreed service for several weeks.

    I don't really blame the agency, they are private sector and will try to get away with as much as they can within the terms of their contract (and will breach their contract if the useless HSE won't do anything about it).

    The icing on the cake will be if it turns out that the agency is getting paid for the care hours that they aren't providing which could well be the case given the ineptitude I've experienced.

    The whole thing is a complete shambles, Even the way the agencies are engaged - you'd have to question whether this is managed or planned or just done in a haphazard, ad hoc, reactive way. In our case, there are two agencies for a relatively small number of hours. The carers who work for these agencies don't know what they're going be doing from one day to the next and often seem to be expected to be in two places at once. While being paid peanuts.

    And this morning I see the public health service unions lobbying for Covid bonuses. No doubt lots of simpletons will support this. Will there be bonuses for homecare agency staff, will carers benefit/allowance for family carers be increased. Will they f*ck. But no doubt public health nurses (many of whom are utterly useless) would get a bonus, maybe admin staff would too.



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    #44
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Things have gotten worse, no shows and bad communication are becoming more common. In a previous post, I said that I had gotten good service from an agency when I engaged it privately. This is now no longer the case as they don't appear to have enough staff. The ones they do have are increasingly angry about everything from communication to lack of travel expenses and, naturally, pay and zero hours contracts.

    Also, carers who are employed by agencies seem to be maneouvring themselves to doing cash in hand work for desperate families. The more this happens, the more shambolic the system gets. Chicken and egg scenario. If an agency employed carer gets 13 quid per hour and doesn't know how many hours they'll be asked to do from one day to the next and families that they have built a rapport with are willing to pay 20+ ph cash in hand - no prizes for guessing what happens.

    I have already formally complained to the HSE about the situation. The senior person I got talking to on foot of the complaint agreed with me that it was indeed a shambles. They also stated that the HSE, not clients, is responsible for managing the agencies engaged by the HSE to provide homecare. They also stated their intention to sort it out and sit on the agencies but looks like that might have been just talk to fob me off.

    I have been fobbed off by other HSE people to NGOs. The NGOs do what they can which isn't much, services provided this way cannot be relied on.

    Lies from other HSE people "if the HSE was providing the service directly this wouldn't be happening". No - I know one person who has homecare provided direct by the HSE and has the same issues.

    Clearly, given staff shortages, poor pay and staff turnover the situation is a crisis that will only get worse. No recent news on the Fair Deal type scheme for homecare that has been mooted for many years and mentioned on several occasions last year by Varadkar, more spoofing probably.



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    #45
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117695268#Comment_117695268

    But yet we're being forced to pay for this service through taxes.



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    #46
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Public consultation on regulation of homecare services. This closes this coming Thursday 4th August.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/81506-public-consultation-on-draft-regulations-for-providers-of-home-support-services/

    Since I started this thread, despite several formal and informal complaints to the HSE, things have not improved. This is a far bigger issue than just some homecare companies providing a disgraceful service. From what I'm hearing from other family carers there are major issues with almost every company and with homecare provided directly by the HSE. It's fundamental and systemic.



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    #47
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Deeec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410760#Comment_119410760

    It's a national disgrace Brian how our elderly are treated. Nothing has changed or will change because those in charge bury their heads and ignore - it's all about making money. I had to try and get care for a few elderly relatives in the last few years. It's absolutely impossible to get the services when needed and then when you do it's unreliable. I am sure that the amount of elderly who die due purely to neglect of care goes completely unreported - it's hushed up. As we speak there is elderly people alone in their homes unable to get out of bed, wash, dress or feed themselves because social and care services don't give a damn.

    It's a disgrace. Unless you have very deep pockets don't get old in Ireland.



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    #48
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410839#Comment_119410839

    It's particularly bad at this time of the year - carers go on holidays and care recipients/their families who have been receiving a barely acceptable level of service for the rest of the year are now left high and dry. The gobsh*tes in the HSE seemingly get taken by surprise every time "shur what can we do, it's summer, people are on holidays".

    I've heard some horror stories in the last few weeks - elderly people distressed from lying in soiled beds after carers that they were depending on didn't turn up. With no communication from either the agency or the HSE to family.

    Even leaving aside the distress, there's no doubt that this sort of thing causes or aggravates physical problems like pressure sores and skin breakdown. It is relatively easy to cover up neglect given the lack of record keeping and traceability. The tangled web of incompetence and difficulty gathering evidence is probably why there hasn't been a massive scandal in the homecare sector.



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    #49
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Bumping this as it is vital that people make submissions on the regulations. The survey is anonymous and is a combination of yes no tickboxes plus ample space for adding text.

    If anyone thinks that this doesn't apply to them, think about this quote from the former First Lady of the US, Rosalynn Carter.

    “There are only four kinds of people in the world. Those who have been caregivers. Those who are currently caregivers. Those who will be caregivers, and those who will need a caregiver.”

    i stand over every single thing I've written in this thread about the problems with homecare, none of it is exaggerated.

    I am surprised to see so little about this consultation online. I didn't see anything on Family Carers Ireland's social media - then again, that NGO is both a provider of homecare services (which would be subject to regulation) as well as an advocacy group for carers so perhaps it is in an uncomfortable, vested interest position here.



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    #50
    StrawbsM
    Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    My parents home care has been an absolute mess (again) since March this year. If I started listing out the current issues with the HSE’s lack of service, I’d be here all day typing. We’ve had no shows for the last few days even though one of the agencies could have provided cover (I know as I asked). The HSE coordinator didn’t bother asking them if they had anyone available so have left us high and dry with no contact at all.

    I’ll fill out that form, OP



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    #51
    Zahra Enough Selflessness
    Posts: 0 ✭ Zahra Enough Selflessness


    HSE home care is a disgrace. The only time you are “entitled” to avail of public health home visit care of any kind is if you have one of those precious Medical Cards. Otherwise it’s an uphill battle.

    Some years ago when I was 56, I underwent a serious emergency surgery and developed a post-op infection after discharge from hospital. Hospital surgeon said I needed to be tended to daily by a nurse for about two weeks, and when she tried to arrange this came upon the answer “no”. Being a Spanish national she was stunned and tried to assert her patient had to have wound checked & dressed daily. The only solution was that I attend my GP daily by taxi, and quite frankly I was in no fit state to leave the house every day as I was running a fever. So the simple matter is that unless you have a medical card you are entitled to zero home care.



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    #52
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,319 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415028#Comment_119415028

    im not sure those cards are what theyre cracked up to be, they just seem to be plastic cards that dont offer a whole lot

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


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    #53
    Zahra Enough Selflessness
    Posts: 0 ✭ Zahra Enough Selflessness


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415091#Comment_119415091

    Probably far from satisfactory but they are are the start point for access to many services otherwise absolutely denied by default.



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    #54
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,319 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415103#Comment_119415103

    ...its a shambles, those that are largely paying for the system, are definitely not getting it back

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


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    #55
    Brucie Bonus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058201873/homecare-packages-yet-another-hse-shambles

    Anytime I see outsourcing, I assume some FF or FG pal is making a fortune off the tax payer.

    The alledged point of outsourcing is to curtail waste and make it easier to act if the results are not satisfactory.



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    #56
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117696747#Comment_117696747 There was an error displaying this embed.

    Agree - my father lived with us and was allocated 45 minutes 'care' per week - just about enough time to help him have a shower. The carer was not replaced when she was ill or on holidays. My father got more immobile as the years went on and needed help with getting out of bed & chairs, bathroom, washing etc and my back was breaking, I had numerous chest infections, and I couldn't leave the house as there was no one else in the family available to provide back up.

    It all became to much for me to handle and my father went into a wonderful nursing home, five minutes walk from where we live. He actually settled in well and enjoyed the company of his peers (or fellow inmates as he called them), their visitors and the staff. He thrived on the various activities during the day and didn't want us to interrupt his meals or the bingo or whatever, so we were welcome to visit after 6pm, which we did every day. I will never forget the care and support we received from the nursing home especially in his last few days.

    I know no one wants to spend their time in a nursing home, but sometimes it is the only option which guarantees safety for the older person, and sanity and health for the family carer.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


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    #57
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415028#Comment_119415028

    That scenario isn't even covered under the new regulations - services provided by nurses and other registered professionals are specifically excluded.

    Anyway, the regulations appear to be about quality when services are provided rather than access to services. AFAIK the HSE is under no legal obligation to provide homecare although I'm not sure of their obligations for providing community nursing etc. services with or without a medical card.

    Actually that makes me question if the cart has been put before the horse here. For years, Spoofer Varadkar and others have been "talking" about a statutory right to homecare and a homecare Fair Deal scheme.

    In the absence of such a statutory right, it would not surprise me if the HSE provides less homecare in response to regulation. As they won't be able to comply with the regulations because of their massive ineptitude when it comes to both providing services directly and managing performance of agencies to which services are outsourced. Alternatively the regulations may have to be watered down to allow both the HSE and HIQA to save face and kick the homecare problem can down the road by a few decades.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


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    #58
    Deeec
    Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Outsourcing is transferring the problems and responsibilities to someone else wiping their hand clean.



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    #59
    gameoverdude
    Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414568#Comment_119414568

    I can see where you're coming from here. The word neglect is important. It's not neglect of funding though.

    It's a neglect of testicular fortitude to sort out the HSE (or ovarian fortitude).

    There are some wonderful people working there, mainly front line staff. The fat needs to me trimmed.

    As mentioned by many posters, the wages for such a responsible and important job are ludicrous! I know I couldn't do the job, but then again people might look at my job and look askance at me enjoying it.

    Carers are so important, not just for the elderly. There are no standards for them. The good ones must me frothing at the mouth that they aren't a recognised profession!



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    #60
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    What's the alternative to homecare? I see Tadhg Daly of the private nursing home representative body (NHI) has been in the media warning of cost pressures in the sector and how a number of smaller nursing homes have closed recently because of this. NHI is claiming that costs rose 10% in 2021 with projected 22% increase this year. Mention of food and energy inflation.

    Private nursing homes currently charge between about 900 and 1500 per week under the Fair Deal. I would have thought that energy and food costs would be a small proportion of that. Have private nursing homes given pay rises to their staff or increased the number of staff? My experience of these places is they don't employ enough staff and do the bare minimum to keep the regulator off their backs.

    Here again we have a situation where important public services were outsourced to the private sector and now there is the implication that if the taxpayer/resident does not come up with more money, nursing homes will close and we'll have yet another crisis which gets crisisier.



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    #61
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    I feel for you OP. The HSE are awful to deal with, I remember when my own father went into hospital and it was discovered he had stage 4 bowel cancer and we had a meeting with the Palliative care team and the team looking after him and all they wanted was him out of the hospital. So we asked what supports would there be for my mother who would be looking after him and they said will we can get you an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening, we said that my mother who was 80 and suffering with arthritis wouldn't be able for that and would more than likely kill her as well and their response was to say that well couldn't we the family all take a leave absence from work to take turns looking after him, when they said that we asked how long as he left and they said could be 3 months or a year but couldn't say. We told them No that they would have to find another solution, thankfully St Francis Hospice came to our aid. I don't know what we would have done with them, they are the only charity I will give money too, even saying that the HSE were about to send him to the wrong hospice only for one of us were at the hospital and had to fight the management to have sent to the correct hospice. Absolute shambles and all that to me just showed how the HSE don't care, I'd say if the HSE management could get away with putting people down they would do it to get them off their hands.



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