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Kanturk deaths - Greed , Pure and Simple !

245

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,600 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    It's telling that Accommodation & Property and the Farming Forums are filed under 'Society & Culture' on Boards.

    Normally quiet people get worked up when money and/or property are at stake. Doesn't have to be rural either, someone takes a bit of your suburban garden with a fence and a mini Bull McCabe comes out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 809 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    But if the father alone committed the murder/suicide....his remaining favourite son would get both farms...but maybe father and son were inseparable without each other.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    In relation to the mother and son returning, I remember reading somewhere that they were effectively 'lured' back. Possibly the two murderers told them that everything could be sorted amicably or something.

    It's actually surreal to try and imagine it happening as it did. Unimaginable what the mother and son went through in the final months of their lives, and with her battling cancer also. May they both rest in peace.



  • Posts: 1,469 [Deleted User]


    Not in the sense that the Court Order would have stopped them but it would have alerted the Gardaí that something was up, possibly even the suspension of their firearms licenses and seizure of the guns. It's not an ideal solution but getting them out of the house might have even injected some sanity into the situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    There would also be the chance that Anne could have sold it completely and the son would get nothing from her. But it sounds like cruelty was one of the motivating factors for doing what they did. After everything they'd done, it would be difficult for the younger son to come out of it clean and not at least be charged as a conspirator in his father's actions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Sick bastards shouldn't even have been granted a funeral ,the father must have fuelled the whole situation ,his only son was getting the farm , absolutely useless headcases,

    Makes you wonder why farmers are treated differently in divorce and separation of marriages , imagine telling a farmer getting divorced he has to sell the farm and give half the proceeds to the ex-wife or kids .



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The parents should leave it to charity in that case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,523 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss



    When you say 'his only son' what do you mean? Was the elder boy from a different relationship, or adopted/fostered?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    That's what the father said to the mother apparently ,he seems to have denied his eldest son existed



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,914 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    I just don't get it at all.It's not like the land cares who it is owned by and at the end of the day, the land wil be there longer than any owner.And how the father was persuaded into being an accomplice....it makes no sense.Incomprehensible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I wonder does Agricultural Relief from inheritance tax contribute to rows over land.

    E.g. if a person inherits 2 million in cash from a parent, they pay about 550k in tax. If there are a few beneficiaries and the money is split equally between them, this could be reduced to a tax bill of 0 each.

    Whereas with farmland there isn't this incentive. If someone inherits 2 million worth of farmland from parents and meets a few conditions, they pay about 50k in inheritance tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @shesty "And how the father was persuaded into being an accomplice....it makes no sense.Incomprehensible."

    I don't think he was persuaded ,I reckon he was driving this whole situation to benefit himself and no one else , even if Ann signed everything over to the youngest son the father would have likely controlled him or help him along the way in a suspicious death



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The young brat seemed to believe as he had some sort of vision / plan for the land that it should automatically go to him. Such arrogance and entitlement.

    As if his plan or vision was all that should matter. Unbelievable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    I really don't get what kind of mentality spawns an act like this.

    You hear of cases where a mother kills her kids and herself and you can only put it down to a drastic case of post-natal depression or mental illness of some sort. Likewise fathers who do the same thing must be going through some kind of abyssmal mental breakdown. But this case just reeks of pure evil and savagery. They killed a son/sibling because they didn't want him to inherit a portion of the land. This doesn't sound like it was fuelled by reasons that I have mentioned in other cases of murder/suicide but by greed, blind rage and emotions that I can't find find a word for.


    The younger son was banging on about there being a trail of carnage left behind, etc, etc. This sicko must have been planning (along with the lunatic father) to do this for days or weeks.

    "Instead of 2 million, you're only getting 1 million"

    "Fcuk that so, I'm going to kill the brother and myself"

    What the father/son gained....nothing but death and a posthumous murder rap.

    What they stood to gain....a million euro inheritance.


    Absolute psychotic vermin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 809 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    They must've have being no love lost between the oldest son and his father if he didn't want him inheriting part of his own farm not to mind part of his wife's farm if she wanted that way.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,559 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    The elder son was the spitting image of the father so unlikely he wasnt his son.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    You'd have to wonder, given the photo of Mark in his graduation outfit, and the comments about him being "useless with his hands", "lazy", was this simply down to the father being bitter that his eldest son went and got an education instead of staying at home to help out.

    In some very traditional quarters getting an education is seen as being weak and lazy, and the eldest son especially following his own path instead of following his father is seen as a massive disrespect and a reason to shun you from the family.

    The six-year age gap between the sons would mean plenty of time to poison the younger brother's mind and make him truly believe that his older brother was worthless and undeserving.

    This would seem to fit everything; why the younger brother and father hated Mark so much, why Mark was not being left any of the father's farm.

    Anne refusing to obey her husband would be the final affront to his honour, for which there was only one recourse.

    I know it sounds all a bit too fictional, but we've seen even men here on boards who aren't far removed from this level of prehistoric family honour nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,619 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    A shower of lunatics with serious mental health issues that were never addressed in my opinion. Living out in the middle of nowhere with nothing to worry them except land and what the neighbours thought of them.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    None of them farmed it though, according to posts here. It was leased out. The father worked as a mechanic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Did either of them have the green cert done? as that is a big issue with farm inheritance tax issues

    Can fully understand the irrationality of people when it comes to property and land.

    People do bizarre and fully planned things



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,715 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Sometimes its better to keep your mouth shut when you don't really know what you are talking about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    very occasionally you hear about stories like this , the last one to shock me as much was the one in Co Cavan five years ago where the school teacher wiped out his entire family

    the planning that went into this one however makes you think there was more than serious mental illness , evil indeed



  • Posts: 1,469 [Deleted User]


    I used to think along those lines too but the older (and older) I've gotten the more I think there's just this underlying mania about land in Ireland, or that land is stand-in for something else we lack. You can say it doesn't exist but strife over land and inheritance is a massive driver of bad blood in Ireland. I don't work in inheritance law (probate here) but a friend of mine always says she advises clients to just "sell the house" and move on with their lives but she has a career because people can't or won't follow this simple advice. She reckons they are really fighting over the deceased parent's affection, which to be fair, is nothing a Court can solve for you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    When you get to this stage it's not about inheritance/ land/ whatever any more. It's about something far more basic that most people (thankfully) won't get. The attack clearly didn't come out of nowhere and nobody will really know what triggered what. It shows complete loss of control though, because it was clear that there would be no winner if one brother was shot.

    Nobody will ever know because the family clearly thought they could handle it, despite death threats. The irony of it.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But most of us live in houses where the inheritance is a nice to have at best. If house prices stay where they are I’m on to get < 100k by 50-60 years of age - if my parents live as long as my grandparents and hopefully they will.

    And with regards to urban houses, even with the crazy prices at the moment 2M is unusual except in the richest suburbs

    the trigger here is the mother getting a terminal illness. Rather than help her the two perpetrators become the victims in their own mind, and decide to make the last few months of that woman’s life hell. I wouldn’t watch a horror movie like this, it wouldn’t be believable. It’s one of the worst things I’ve ever heard of.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,955 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Terribly sad and tragic story.

    An entire family gone - three via murder/suicide, the mother through illness and now that land is of no use whatsoever to any of them.

    Ireland really does have a very warped and deeply unhealthy relationship to land and property ownership. A relationship that has in the past and - still in the present - distorted policymaking and stunted long-term rational, strategic planning in terms of spatial and regional development.

    Then there’s the Irish mindset of “well, if I can’t have it, then nobody else can.”

    We really need a more grown-up and sensible approach to land and assets. When it comes to land and housing, rationality and common sense often goes completely out the window and we are all the poorer for it.

    These killings may not have solely been over land and inheritance, but it is clear that it was a major factor in the tragedy.

    It won’t be the last.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I really wish people would give up on the ethnic generalisations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Beatty69


    How do you find something like this amusing????



  • Posts: 1,469 [Deleted User]


    It's only about money on the face of it, it's about something else entirely on a deeper level, imo. It's hard (or for me, impossible) to explain if you haven't come across it directly.

    even choosing to kill themselves at a fairy fort is so weird it's verging on mythological.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,872 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Yeah I really don't get these sweeping "Irish people and their land" statements. The vast majority of Irish families own no land, and stand no prospect of ever inheriting any, yet according to this thread every Irish person is neck deep in some massive family dispute over land.

    There's no debate as to whether bitter disputes occur, but trying to take what are isolated incidents and saying they're rife in Ireland is just nonsense. It's easy to say "oh I heard xyz story about 2 brothers", because those stories are notable. You're rarely going to hear about the many many inheritances that go off amicably without a hitch, because they aren't noteworthy and nobody talks about them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭HBC08


    If you think this terrible story is amusing either you don't understand the word amusing or you have a few mental issues yourself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I appreciate we're talking about a large property here but I seriously have no idea how many floors the building had.

    The nice thing about humour is that it is subjective.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Most normal people don't find it amusing at all.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The older son and the mother appeared to have a good relationship and she seemed to want to leave him something in the will. How the other son managed to convince himself he deserved everything is a real mystery. I'm not sure what to make of the father, he was either easily led by the youngest son or a bitter sinister fu*ker himself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,000 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Speaking of greed, there was a family ran travel agency that all my extended family and ourselves had been customers of for 30 plus years, they were great to do business with, not the cheapest always but their employees had an encyclopedic knowledge of travel and were helpful and enthusiastic and provided a seriously personable and personalized service ....

    around 6 years ago staff started leaving and by that I mean staff who were great and were there years in the main...due to what we’ve been told was having their pay frozen, and the employers becoming pricks... they hadn't seen a cent extra in three to four years and all of a sudden were getting hassle if a customer was expressing interest in a holiday but ultimately not booking...

    my cousin got me a link to their published accounts, over the last decade their cumulative profit for those years I’m working out now was 1.54 million... not turnover...profit... 8 of those 10 years were six figure profit yet for years they were refusing to give a couple of euro to their employees...

    when they closed up shop to ‘retire’ staff were left hanging for promised references... and wages although grapevine says that was ironed out...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,895 ✭✭✭Odelay


    €150,000 profit per year is not a massive margin. Start splashing a few grand about to each staff member and what you said was already not the cheapest option, becomes more expensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,000 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    It’s not ‘massive’ but when you only have a small family business with three full time employees besides the husband and wife ... and the profit is literally yearly... over a decade, I really think in recognition of their valued service and to the business keep them in situ a fair and simple increase would be proportional...nobody is suggesting they threw tens of thousands at them. :)

    they shafted their staff for promised references too which was only something sorted out by a chance meeting over a year later.... that stuck in the craw as much as anything as one of their remaining staff was there years and had a long service to the company and certainly was the girl who we deal the most with... went over and above to help and facilitate clients.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    Things got do bad the mother considered selling. In a way lucky she didnt as other people could have gotten caught up in all of it



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,600 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore




  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    "thats way beyond greed... they are a pair of absolute psychos."

    Being greedy and psycho have surprisingly lot in common.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    He'd be very far from the first street angel house devil.





  • I had a falling out with my mother and she's giving everything to the youngest brother leaving me and other brother nothing. Couple of houses, land and some money. Easily €1m plus.

    Doesn't bother me in the slightest, happy to make my own way and maintain my relationship with my siblings. If anything, it has increased my drive to do better in my own career.

    No amount of money can compensate me for the heartache and trouble of dealing with her madness where she chose the bottle over her own kids. People think I'm shooting myself in the foot taking such a stance but I really cound not care about inheritance.





  • Nothing amusing about it. Says alot about you. How can you deem a sick mother and her compassionate son as idiotic? They were victims of this brutality.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Inheritance involving land seems to spark a lot of emotions in some people.

    Rural Ireland is full of embittered families over the way things were and weren't done.

    I know of children who have tried to do their own mothers out of inheritance when their father died



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Blanco100


    Seeing alot of niche information "eldest brother was deemed no good with his hands" and how father didn't see victim as his son. Where did people read this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    As explained earlier: I find it difficult to see this as a tragic event when the people who allegedly feared for their lives willingly returned into the household they so dreaded.

    feel free to be upset on my behalf.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭FileNotFound


    The green eyed goblin is a dangerous chap when he gets a hold of someones emotions.

    It sounds insane when you hear the story and I cannot personally even begin to comprehend what was going through their heads.


    But money really does send people nuts, sad really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    Well done. You will never regret. I have seen many sibling relationships shattered while legal fees mounted up and ultimate profits squandered.



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