The Decline of Religion

smacl · 24-09-2018 6:03pm

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

I hope Christianity ceases to exist, terrible terrible things the RCC has done to Ireland in the past.
If only we could have a peaceful religion like Islam take hold here, that will make us all liberals super happy!

Can't speak for anyone else here, but as an atheist I think all religions are different flavours of the same nonsense and as a secularist I fully support people's right to practise whatever religion they choose just so long as they don't try to foist it on others (notably me and my family). To my mind Islam in many countries today is like Catholicism in Ireland in the '50s '60s and '70s. Autocratic, homophobic, and misogynistic where religion is beyond allowable criticism. We've largely got over that crap, and I can see no reason why most muslims won't over time. For all that, I've spent a fair bit of time in a number of Islamic majority countries and I'd have to say that by and large the people were really warm and friendly. People aren't their religion either and reducing how you think of them in such a limited way helps no one.

recedite · 24-09-2018 10:16pm

smacl wrote: »

Even then, all evolutionary models show that change overcomes a static position, so your notion of an expansionist traditional religious society having some kind of permanent evolutionary advantage seems self contradictory.

Not quite true;a winning meme remains in circulation as long as it is still winning. In biological terms, there are lots of ancient genetic blueprints still around. Off the top of my head, sharks, coelacanth, tuatara. And of course the blue green algae have been around from the very beginning.

smacl wrote: »

There seems to be a common criticism of mimetics in that it is trying to shoehorn cultural phenomena into a genetic framework and is often considered a pseudoscience as a result. I think your argument above falls down for the same reason. If by evolution, you're actually referring to cultural evolution you should probably say so, because this is something entirely distinct from biological evolution such as gene-centred evolution. These are not interchangeable terms.

Well I'm not sure if anyone reputable considers this to be "pseudoscience". Its probably part science and part philosophy.
Memes and genes work on the same basic principles; that is why some of the terms became interchangeable in the first place. They are "universal replicators" and possess three key characteristics: high fidelity replication, high levels of fecundity (prolific) and longevity. Religious memes tend to possess all these attributes. For example, the Koran is probably the most accurately transcribed text ever. Ancient copies have been found which are identical to modern texts, word for word. Scribes have always been specially trained and specially selected for this sacred work.

A bunch of memes operating together as a system becomes a distinct culture, just as a bunch of genes produces a distinct type of body.

smacl · 25-09-2018 7:12am

recedite wrote: »

Well I'm not sure if anyone reputable considers this to be "pseudoscience". Its probably part science and part philosophy.

Wikipedia specifically makes reference to mimetics as a pseudoscience, e.g.

Luis Benitez-Bribiesca, a critic of memetics, calls it "a pseudoscientific dogma" and "a dangerous idea that poses a threat to the serious study of consciousness and cultural evolution" among other things.

If you have a brief look through some of the references, we see the following quote by Dawkins himself

Richard Dawkins, Time Magazine, 1999 wrote:

I am occasionally accused of having backtracked on memes, of having lost heart, pulled in my horns, had second thoughts. The truth is that my first thoughts were more modest than some memeticists might wish. For me the original mission was negative. The word was introduced at the end of a book that otherwise must have seemed entirely devoted to extolling the “selfish” gene as the be-all and end-all of evolution, the fundamental unit of selection. There was a risk that my readers would misunderstand the message as being necessarily about DNA molecules. . . . This was where the meme came in

To talk about evolution, a globally accepted scientific subject taught in schools and colleges worldwide that has been subjected to rigorous and intense scrutiny, and mean mimetics is misleading.

recedite · 25-09-2018 12:27pm

Luis Benitez-Bribiesca, a critic of memetics, calls it "a pseudoscientific dogma" and "a dangerous idea that poses a threat to the serious study of consciousness and cultural evolution" among other things...

But you omitted the end part of that quote, which goes..

This, however, has been demonstrated (e.g. by Daniel C. Dennett, in Darwin's Dangerous Idea) to not be the case, in fact, due to the existence of self-regulating correction mechanisms (vaguely resembling those of gene transcription) enabled by the redundancy and other properties of most meme expression languages, which do stabilize information transfer. (E.g. spiritual narratives—including music and dance forms—can survive in full detail across any number of generations even in cultures with oral tradition only.)

Who is Luis Benitez-Bribiesca anyway? A quick google indicates he died 2 years ago, but worked in the Mexican Dept. of Social Security. Is that the Mexican dole office?
I think I'll go with Daniel Dennett on this one.

smacl · 25-09-2018 1:36pm

recedite wrote: »

Who is Luis Benitez-Bribiesca anyway? A quick google indicates he died 2 years ago, but worked in the Mexican Dept. of Social Security. Is that the Mexican dole office?
I think I'll go with Daniel Dennett on this one.

With over a hundred citations on Research Gate, I'd suggest a rather more well informed source than you seem to be implying, and one of many such critics of memetics, including the likes of Steven Pinker.

Either way some narrowly followed amalgam of science and philosophy as you put it is a very far cry from evolution, as it is widely understood, in terms of credibility or broad acceptance. Even the term mimetics itself, as derived from Dawkins' work, isn't the common use of that word that you'd find a dictionary. It certainly isn't a science from what I can see, yet it follows the naming conventions of genetics to give the impression that it is one. It seems very much like a linguistic framework to support discussion among a group of people that buy into certain theories, and certainly wide open to scepticism.

antiskeptic · 22-04-2019 4:10pm

smacl wrote: »

I personally find the Christian notion of 'Go forth and multiply' morally reprehensible in this context, and I don't doubt that Islam suffers from similar problems.

There would be nothing wrong with going forth and multiplying if it wasn't shackled to capitalism's identical-with-a-twist motto: go forth and multiply at the expense of anyone who you can dominate to fuel the multiplication.

There is more than plenty to sustain far more life on earth .. were it not for the fact that to concentrate the wealth in a small sector of the world, the rest has to be raped.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-04-2019 5:23pm

Why should we want to sustain yet more human life on Earth though?

Is the population doubling in less than 50 years (despite contraception) a trend we should be happy to see continue?

Hector Savage · 23-04-2019 9:54am

smacl wrote: »

Can't speak for anyone else here, but as an atheist I think all religions are different flavours of the same nonsense and as a secularist I fully support people's right to practise whatever religion they choose just so long as they don't try to foist it on others (notably me and my family). To my mind Islam in many countries today is like Catholicism in Ireland in the '50s '60s and '70s. Autocratic, homophobic, and misogynistic where religion is beyond allowable criticism. We've largely got over that crap, and I can see no reason why most muslims won't over time. For all that, I've spent a fair bit of time in a number of Islamic majority countries and I'd have to say that by and large the people were really warm and friendly. People aren't their religion either and reducing how you think of them in such a limited way helps no one.

Very good post.
And I hope to God (;)) you're right.

smacl · 23-04-2019 11:24am

antiskeptic wrote: »

There would be nothing wrong with going forth and multiplying if it wasn't shackled to capitalism's identical-with-a-twist motto: go forth and multiply at the expense of anyone who you can dominate to fuel the multiplication.

There is more than plenty to sustain far more life on earth .. were it not for the fact that to concentrate the wealth in a small sector of the world, the rest has to be raped.

That doesn't matter. The earth is a finite resource, so if you look to continually increase the size of the human population by multiples you see exponential growth that at some point exhausts those resources and results in a population collapse at best or extinction at worst. More sensibly, at a social level, we control our own population growth to maintain optimal population levels.

robindch · 23-04-2019 1:03pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is the population doubling in less than 50 years (despite contraception) a trend we should be happy to see continue?

Given that our religious confreres wish to outbreed other religions now that the option of killing them has (mostly) receded into the past, I'd say yes, doubling their own populations is what - I suspect the majority of - religious people wish for.

That's the main reason why religious people get upset at the naive and frankly innocuous Georgie Guidestones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

Hotblack Desiato · 03-05-2019 10:54am

Very strange. Seem like guidelines for a post-nuclear holocaust society - but will anyone be able to read them?

Meanwhile, in a survey in the US "no religion" was the most chosen option

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/13/us/no-religion-largest-group-first-time-usa-trnd/index.html?utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=image&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2019-04-13T14%3A12%3A27

For the first time "No Religion" has topped a survey of Americans' religious identity, according to a new analysis by a political scientist. The non-religious edged out Catholics and evangelicals in the long-running General Social Survey.

Ryan Burge, a political scientist at Eastern Illinois University and a Baptist pastor, found that 23.1% of Americans now claim no religion.

Catholics came in at 23.0%, and evangelicals were at 22.5%.

The three groups remain within the margin of error of each other though, making it a statistical tie. Over 2,000 people were interviewed in person for the survey.

"Religious nones," as they are called by researchers, are a diverse group made up of atheists, agnostics, the spiritual, and those who are no specific organized religion in particular. A rejection of organized religion is the common thread they share.

"It is the first time we have seen this. The same questions have been asked for 44 years," Burge told CNN.

The meteoric rise of religious nones began in the early 1990s and has grown 266% since 1991, he said.

Burge estimates that 'No Religion' will be the largest group outright in four to six years.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-02-2021 7:42pm

Religious order ‘overwhelmed’ by death of 10 priests in Covid-19 wave

Ten priests from the Spiritan order died in the month of January, eight of them having tested positive for Covid-19.

In a statement, the order – also known as the Holy Ghost Fathers – said the number of deaths in such a short period of time was “overwhelming”.

Six were in their eighties and four were aged between 90 and 97. All but two had tested positive for Covid-19. The order declined to state which two had not tested for the disease.

In addition the order lost seven priests during the first wave of Covid-19. Three of them tested positive for the virus and three others had Covid-related symptoms.

HSE to target religious congregations for vaccination after surge of Covid-19 deaths

The Health Service Executive (HSE) has said it does not know how many clergy live in congregated settings, which are to be targeted next week for Covid-19 vaccines.

Homes for elderly priests and nuns are not classified as nursing homes and are not regulated by the Health Information and Quality Authority (HIQA).

They were not included on the priority list for early vaccinations though the HSE vaccination teams intends to target them next week.

The Covid-19 pandemic has hit many religious congregations very hard. In April three retired and former Jesuit priests and a Jesuit brother died at the congregation’s Cherryfield Lodge nursing home in Dublin’s Milltown.

Four retired members of the Augustinian religious order died and six others were infected in a Covid-19 outbreak at a Co Wicklow retirement home run on behalf of the order.

Four Oblate priests died at the order’s retirement home in Inchicore in Dublin last spring from Covid-19. Four nuns in an unnamed convent in the southwest died from Covid-19 and 12 of the 14 residents were infected, according to a report published in the Journal of Nursing Home Research Science in July. It recommended greater monitoring of such facilities.

The Spiritan order lost 10 priests last month, eight who had Covid-19, and a further seven in April though the order closed its retirement home in Kimmage in Dublin last year.

According to figures collated by the Irish Catholic newspaper, 36 priests died in April last year at the height of the pandemic compared to 12 in 2019, eight in 2018 and 14 in 2017. Between March and August last year 135 priests died compared to 79 priests died in 2019 in the same six-month period.

The HSE will begin vaccinating in these congregated settings next week.

However, HSE chief operations officer Anne O’Connor cautioned that “we have no line of sight outside what is registered with Hiqa. There are groupings outside any registered body so we are trying to capture them through all different channels, but there are ones that we don’t know about. We are making a list of those now”.

The Association of Leaders of Missionaries & Religious of Ireland (AMRI) secretary general David Rose said it has highlighted the risk to older religious and their carers to the HSE.

“We are very concerned about Covid related deaths in religious communities. We extend our sincere sympathy to the Spiritans and to all congregations who have lost members to Covid,” he said.

“We understand that the HSE is considering additional congregated settings included religious, and that is very welcome. The HSE regional offices have been very helpful in supporting religious communities in managing Covid.”

Mr Rose said the majority of religious – priests, brothers and sisters – who are members of AMRI will fall into the priority category to receive the vaccine given their age in the coming weeks.

Last para says it all really...

Hotblack Desiato · 05-02-2021 7:47pm

Also, not really a surprise but Diarmuid Martin was in denial about this til the last...

Sunday Mass in every church to become a thing of the past, Dublin Archbishop says

Dublin’s new Catholic Archbishop has said celebration of Sunday Mass in every church will become a thing of the past and a declining priesthood will require a greater role for lay leadership.

In a interview on the day of his formal installation, Archbishop Dermot Farrell set out the current state of his diocese in numbers , 197 parishes served by 350 active priests with an average age of 70.

He said there was now a need to reorganise parishes both in terms of how they are divided out and the possibility of lay leadership.

“We need to talk to the people on the ground. Eventually we will only have possibly one priest per parish and maybe not even that many priests as we go forward,” he said.

“So more and more lay people are going to have to take responsibility in terms of the leadership that’s provided at parish level.”

Are they any younger than the priests though?

Speaking to The Hard Shoulder on Newstalk , Archbishop Farrell also said a lot of church infrastructure has been in place since earlier centuries when things were very different and is probably no longer needed. He said decisions on church closures would be required.

“It’s certain that we won’t be able to celebrate Sunday mass in every church in every parish in this diocese,” he said.

“I think the Lord is probably saying to us at this time: I don’t want you to keep doing the things that you were doing 100 years ago, 200 years ago.”

Pity he didn't speak to them about child abuse at all, isn't it? :rolleyes:

robindch · 30-03-2021 11:09am

U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time

https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx

Gallup wrote:

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Americans' membership in houses of worship continued to decline last year, dropping below 50% for the first time in Gallup's eight-decade trend. In 2020, 47% of Americans said they belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque, down from 50% in 2018 and 70% in 1999.

U.S. church membership was 73% when Gallup first measured it in 1937 and remained near 70% for the next six decades, before beginning a steady decline around the turn of the 21st century.

As many Americans celebrate Easter and Passover this week, Gallup updates a 2019 analysis that examined the decline in church membership over the past 20 years.

Gallup asks Americans a battery of questions on their religious attitudes and practices twice each year. The following analysis of declines in church membership relies on three-year aggregates from 1998-2000 (when church membership averaged 69%), 2008-2010 (62%), and 2018-2020 (49%). The aggregates allow for reliable estimates by subgroup, with each three-year period consisting of data from more than 6,000 U.S. adults.

The decline in church membership is primarily a function of the increasing number of Americans who express no religious preference. Over the past two decades, the percentage of Americans who do not identify with any religion has grown from 8% in 1998-2000 to 13% in 2008-2010 and 21% over the past three years.

Any guesses as to the scale on the vertical axis?

Hotblack Desiato · 30-03-2021 11:28am

I think the best approach with that one is ignore the horizontal lines which are clearly for decorative purposes only

70% to below 50% in 20 years is a hell of a change (see what I did there?) and points to a very largely religious generation being replaced by a very largely irreligious one.

Therefore we can expect this trend to continue in the next generation and the religious affiliation figure to continue to drop sharply and approach European norms (which are still falling)

Of course there will be some percentage of Americans who are religious but not members of any church - but, given the number of different churches there and the lack of any taboo over switching allegiance, probably not that many.

Whereas here in Ireland, we have lots of people who are not at all religious but still proclaim membership of the RCC. Cultural, innit! :pac:

Hotblack Desiato · 08-05-2021 11:30pm

Civil marriages overtake Catholic marriages for the first time

OK so last year was not a normal year, but still, it's in line with the trend of recent years - 42.1% of marriages were civil, 34.6% catholic, 7.8% humanist, 6.7% spiritualist.

Given that spiritualist weddings can have as much or as little woo as you like, the restrictions on when and where you can have an official HSE civil marriage, and the shortage of humanist celebrants, they're mostly in reality non-religious as well although designated as religious by the state (once again we're in the ridiculous position of having a supposedly secular state having to decide what is a "valid" religion and what isn't.)

So in all likelihood well over 50% of all marriages are now non-religious. Who'd have thought it!

Now, where are all the non-church schools for the resulting kids...?

Hotblack Desiato · 09-05-2021 12:00am

'A possible disaster': Catholic Church reckons with declining interest post-pandemic

In a pastoral reflection on the future of the Catholic Church last month, one of the church’s newest and youngest bishops, Bishop of Clonfert Michael Duignan (50), pondered the challenges that lie ahead.

“I fear that we might mistakenly think that once the current Covid restrictions are lifted and once we return to public worship, everything will be all right,” said the bishop. Instead, he believes the future will be “very different”.

Some “fear a possible disaster”, he said, with “fewer people practising, financial difficulties, children and families further distanced from the sacraments and congregations permanently migrating to the comfort of online attendance”.

“There may even be a growing realisation that, although much of what we normally do as church was absent these last months, for many people, it was not really missed,” said Bishop Duignan.

Others, he said, speak of the pandemic as simply hastening the decline of the Catholic Church in Irish life, one “that was already quite evident – [but] fast-forwarding it a decade or more”.

In the past, the church tried to “engage with and convert secular society”, he said, but perhaps it was now time “to seriously engage with and convert ourselves and the way we live as a Christian community within that secular society”.

The church should “muster the courage to free ourselves from many of the things we are currently doing that are no longer fruitful and that are, at times, counterproductive”.

“Can we really continue with the number of Masses we have? Can we really keep all our churches open? And what is our future role in Catholic education? Can we continue to act as patron of so many primary schools?”

From Monday, 50 people will be able to gather in churches, mosques or other religious venues, including funerals and weddings, though Catholic Communions and Confirmations are not allowed.

All places of worship stayed open for private prayer during the latest lockdown, so religious venues are already practised in the public health rules needed on sanitising and seating, and so on.

The Catholic Church is the faith most affected by the pandemic because of the emphasis placed on attendance at public worship, which is why it has taken such a heavy blow over the past 15 months, especially financially.

The income of most priests has fallen by a quarter. By last June, the Archdiocese of Dublin’s two main donation streams for priests had dropped by 70 and 80 per cent respectively in just three months.

A voluntary redundancy scheme in the Dublin archdiocese was oversubscribed, with staff cut from 82 to 42, while reduced pay will likely remain for the rest of the year, even with restrictions removed.

The thoughts of Bishop Duignan reflect those of the Archbishop of Dublin, Dermot Farrell, who spoke to parishioners in Churchtown during yet another virtual Mass recently.

The challenge for Catholics now is “to live out” baptismal pledges and appeal to younger people “rather than exhausting ourselves” trying to preserve structures “inherited from another time”, he said.

Highlighting the shortage of priests in the church now and in the years to come, Archbishop Farrell performed his first ordination on Vocations Sunday last month, just his second since he became a bishop in 2018.

The average age of priests in Dublin was now 70, he said in his Churchtown homily: “As bishop, one of the key difficulties I face is not that of having fewer priests, but that of not having younger clergy.”

The Dublin archdiocese has just two studying for the priesthood. Many of his priests are over 75, entitled to retire but continuing to serve “with evident generosity of spirit”.

The Archbishop wondered whether “renewed appreciation of the role of the laity [has] perhaps unintentionally rendered the true role of priest invisible”.

“Forty-two years ago when Pope St John Paul visited Ireland this was not a difficult question. Everyone knew what priesthood was about,” he said, but the same question was less easy to answer when Pope Francis came three years ago.

To plan for the future, Archbishop Farrell has set up a 14-strong group, representing lay men and women and clergy, to scope out “a radical renewal” of the archdiocese. An interim report is expected in June.

Time is passing too in other dioceses. Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary will retire in April, aged 75. The Bishop of Ferns, Denis Brennan, was 75 last June, while Bishop of Galway Brendan Kelly will be 75 on May 20th.

Successors for each are due in coming months, but it could bring change most of all for Bishop Duignan, who may be moved to the Galway diocese, though one that could be expanded to include Clonfert, the diocese he now leads.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-08-2021 12:00am

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/might-covid-and-2020-mark-a-final-rupture-in-history-of-irish-catholicism-1.4637092

Might Covid and 2020 mark a final rupture in history of Irish Catholicism?

Apparently it's all the fault of Vatican II... 🙄

robindch · 06-08-2021 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117713353#Comment_117713353

Ye gods, reading young Salvador's prose is like driving across a recently ploughed field in a Citreon 2CV.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-08-2021 11:40am

Not sure if that's quite the diss you intended, the 2CV's suspension was designed so that a farmer could bring his trays of eggs to market across a ploughed field without breaking them 😉

robindch · 09-08-2021 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714995#Comment_117714995

Glad you got the reference 😉

For the record, I believe the 2CV design criterion involved driving lengthways up and down the furrows with a basket of eggs, while the bumpiness of Mr Ryan's hokey prose suggests that one is driving crossways.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-08-2021 2:26am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-archbishop-of-dublin-says-belief-has-vanished-in-ireland-1.4648399

Catholic Archbishop of Dublin says belief has ‘vanished’ in Ireland

“The current model of the Church is unsustainable,” he said. In Dublin there was need “for an effective programme of catechetics throughout the diocese to add to and, eventually, replace the current teaching of faith to the young. With the gradual decline of family socialisation in religion, the role of the qualified catechist will be essential. In my opinion, the handing on of the Faith to the young is one of the most serious challenges facing our Church today.”

Whatever. Just get the hell out of our schools...

ohnonotgmail · 08-09-2021 2:11pm

The demolition of one of the largest catholic churches in Dublin has started. I was christened in that church. I wonder if the demolition nullifies that?

https://dublinpeople.com/news/dublin/articles/2021/09/08/demolition-of-landmark-church-of-annunciation-in-finglas-begins/?fbclid=IwAR2ICMXCbf8o6kk4WrkpU4RdnNXtt4B7mlmcB6NKtCPClIjGWh6iBiUIgh4

Hotblack Desiato · 08-09-2021 3:22pm

Sadly not!

Only a month short of 3 years since the last mass was held there and over 18 months since they got planning permission, but it's not a protected structure so they could have started demolishing it whenever they liked.

Makes you wonder though if a new church is necessary at all, given the lack of urgency presumably (pre-covid) parishoners were managing to go somewhere else - not many places in Dublin city where another church isn't far away - didn't Farrell say there would have to be amalgamations of parishes and church closures? Is that going to be another "divestment" where they say it'll happen but nothing does?

Oh well, one less McQuaid Monstrosity on the Dublin skyline, that has to be an improvement.

Sinn Fein TD Dessie Ellis said the church was “a well-known and much loved landmark for 50 years."

Should've gone to Specsavers...

magicbastarder · 08-09-2021 5:17pm

i wonder if dessie ellis is bringing some of his, em, expert knowledge for the demolition process.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-10-2021 6:49pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/number-of-priests-in-tuam-archdiocese-has-more-than-halved-in-25-years-archbishop-1.4701006

The number of active priests in Tuam’s Catholic archdiocese has more than halved over the past 25 years, while it has just two men training for the priesthood, Archbishop Michael Neary has noted.

Speaking in Westport on Thursday at an in-service gathering of priests of the archdiocese, he recalled how “when we gathered here in Hotel Westport in the autumn of 1996 for our first annual in-service, we had 115 diocesan priests in full-time ministry within, and 5 in ministries outside the archdiocese. We were assisted by 15 non-diocesans at that time, and 10 priests were fully retired. There were also 14 seminarians for the diocese in seminaries in Ireland and in Rome.”

He continued: “Today, we have 47 diocesan priests in full-time ministry; we are assisted by 11 others; 1 diocesan priest working outside the diocese, and 34 priests are fully retired. There are two seminarians.”

Hotblack Desiato · 11-11-2021 8:18pm

ACP discuss the rearrangement of the deckchairs on the Titanic

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/diocesan-synods-last-chance-saloon-for-catholic-church-priest-meeting-hears-1.4725168

Plus some waffle from the new Dublin archbishop about schools:

A great strength of faith-based schools "has been their rootedness in local communities. Those who do not share our faith come to our schools because they know that at their heart there is the acceptance of values motivated by our faith – values that present a specific vision or view of human life."

Nah, they go to your schools because they don't really have any fúcking choice 😡

ohnonotgmail · 12-11-2021 9:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118153143#Comment_118153143

I wonder what the average age of the attendees was.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-11-2021 11:23am

God's waiting room

Hotblack Desiato · 27-11-2021 11:46am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/great-change-needed-in-dublin-s-ageing-catholic-archdiocese-says-report-1.4739820

Almost half of the 312 priests in Dublin’s Catholic Archdiocese are more than 70 years old, with just two students preparing for priesthood.

Catholic priests retire at 75, which means that the 139 now more than 70 will have retired by 2026, leaving 173 ageing clergy to serve Dublin’s 1.1 million Catholics.

According to the last census in 2016, 70 per cent of Dublin’s 1.57 million population identified as Roman Catholic. Of those aged 25-29 then, just more than half identified as Roman Catholic, while a fifth of Dublin’s total population recorded no religion.

It found that “the scale and duration of the scandal of abuse of children by clergy, and the legacy of the institutionalisation of women and children, have gravely eroded the credibility of the church”.

It's not so much the fact that there were abusers, but that they were shielded which has done the most damage, imho.

But if they said that then the bishops would have to take the blame.

The coronavirus pandemic “accentuated systemic challenges facing the church in Dublin. The severe impact of Covid restrictions on attendance at Mass and on the associated collections impacted on the finances of every parish and damaged the financial sustainability of the archdiocese”.

Bottom line is always their highest concern. How about they sell off some of the massive unused land banks they have - might even drive the price of development land and therefore houses down in Dublin?

As a strategy towards renewal in the archdiocese, the taskforce recommended that this begin with a “statement of mission” from Archbishop Farrell, followed by discussion at parish level where each parish would prepare a report on its future. Dr Farrell would then engage with parishes on their reports, leading to an overall pastoral plan for the future of the archdiocese.

Sounds like a winning strategy...

ohnonotgmail · 29-11-2021 9:29am

My local church installed a card machine at the entrance so mass goers could make a donation. no coins please.

23-12-2021 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108135317#Comment_108135317

That’s a bit of a false dilemma, if they can do both. As it stands now the population is going to fall for decades or centuries.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-12-2021 11:22pm

Thanks for the hot take on a three year old post.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-01-2022 8:51pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40780641.html

More than 21% of Ireland's entire population of parish priests and brothers — both serving and retired — have died in just three years.

The Association of Catholic Priests says that parishes are going to have to be amalgamated, churches closed, and fewer Masses held.

Fr John Collins, one of the ACP’s directors, said: “The figures are shocking. It is very sad to see so many have died in such a short space of time.

“We are all aware of an ageing priest population, but it is only when you look at the figures that you realise what a high number it is.

This is a truly shocking illustration of the extent of the problem facing the Church.”

He added that the number of those dying every year is "only going to keep rising".

The problem is this - will it be the priests or the parishoners who all die out first?

robindch · 24-05-2022 11:50am

The church seems to be claiming on insurance for income lost during the pandemic. Is this kind of corporate income protection actually a thing? Or are they just chancing their holy arms?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-in-insurance-compensation-talks-over-millions-of-lost-pandemic-income-1.4886374

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2022 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119106659#Comment_119106659

they are claiming off their insurance company. if they have such a policy in place they would be foolish not to claim.

robindch · 24-05-2022 12:31pm

Foolish not to try to claim if they believe they've a chance of recovering the lost cash. But I was more wondering about the basis for the claim - is there such a thing as income protection insurance for what's essentially a corporate entity? If so, I've never heard of it. Also, would the insurance company be able to refuse to pay, on the grounds that the pandemic was an act of god? Comes down to whatever contract is governing the cover I suppose.

Hotblack Desiato · 24-05-2022 6:49pm

TBH if pubs have succeeded (eventually) with similar claims then they probably have a case. No doubt many of our highly paid learned friends will be looking closely into this for quite some time.

NB the catholic church in Ireland actually investigated (not sure if they followed through) insuring itself against paedophilia compensation claims. That was before they got their pet minister to soak the populace for a billion plus...

Hotblack Desiato · 05-06-2022 2:42pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/06/04/the-catholic-churchs-billion-euro-land-sale-and-its-just-getting-started/

€€€€€€€€€

Hotblack Desiato · 30-06-2022 11:25pm

Australia's census results are out, Christian and religious affiliation in general continue to fall dramatically.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/28/2021-australian-census-results-ten-things-we-learned-australia-abs-data

While Christianity is still the most common religion in Australia, religious diversity is increasing: 43.9% of respondents identified as Christian in the 2021 census compared to more than half in 2016 and 61% in 2011.

At the same time, more people are identifying as atheist or agnostic. Almost 40% of the population responded “no religion” on the 2021 census, an increase of 10% in the past five years.

Interestingly, while almost 60% of baby boomers reported a religious affiliation, 46.5% of millennials reported having no religion.

Hotblack Desiato · 07-07-2022 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/110000125#Comment_110000125

And now some twat has blown them up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62073675

robindch · 07-07-2022 3:12pm

On the plus side, there are an awful lot fewer suspects than there used to be.

A record-low 20% of Americans now say the Bible is the literal word of God, down from 24% the last time the question was asked in 2017, and half of what it was at its high points in 1980 and 1984. Meanwhile, a new high of 29% say the Bible is a collection of "fables, legends, history and moral precepts recorded by man."

https://news.gallup.com/poll/394262/fewer-bible-literal-word-god.aspx

Hotblack Desiato · 03-08-2022 10:45pm

https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status/1549566510112264192?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1549566510112264192%7Ctwgr%5E50fa9c710316aad170cc4b721d1e54f46799e147%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fdiscussion%2F2058244816%2Ffall-of-the-catholic-church%2Fp64

"The emptying of the pews in one graph.

Among those born in the early 1930s, 60% attend church weekly. 17% never attend.

Among those born in the early 1950s, 32% attend weekly. 29% never attend.

Among those born in the early 1990s, 18% attend weekly. 42% never attend."

Hotblack Desiato · 03-08-2022 10:50pm

Found the article the graph came from. Can't remember where I first saw it, so apologies if it was elsewhere on A&A 😮

https://www.salon.com/2022/07/29/the-backlash-to-christianity-are-now-panicked--but-they-only-have-themselves-to/

Igotadose · 15-09-2022 8:19am

Pew Research bidding farewell to Xtianity as the religion of the majority of the population in the US by 2070. Saddens me to know I won't be around to see it, but still. Maybe there's ways to make it happen faster.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/christianity-projected-to-lose-majority-status-among-americans-by-2070-pew-model-projects/ar-AA11Q8Q9?ocid=msedgntp&pc=EE04&cvid=5d2dd9f148c240498f845a7a90018deb

Hotblack Desiato · 15-09-2022 10:22am

As we've seen in Ireland with religious practice (if not necessarily census box-ticking) it does't decline linearly. Once it's no longer the norm for parents to force it on their kids then it declines exponentially.

smacl · 15-09-2022 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119621145#Comment_119621145

Very much what the Pew report that underlies the MSN piece says, https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2022/09/US-Religious-Projections_FOR-PRODUCTION-9.13.22.pdf Makes for a very interesting read in terms of analysing the factors leading to religious decline, e.g. tougher anti-immigration measures for South America versus Asia leading to fewer Christian immigrants is one I wouldn't have though of.

wench · 29-11-2022 3:17pm

Some interesting results from the latest UK census. England and Wales are no longer majority christian countries.

Christians (all denominations) down to 46.2%, no religion up to 37.2%

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/29/leicester-and-birmingham-are-uk-first-minority-majority-cities-census-reveals

Hotblack Desiato · 30-11-2022 4:20pm

I suspect all that some will want to talk about is not the many millions who have changed from a christian affiliation to no religion, but the comparatively small increase in those affiliated to islam.

The chief executive of Humanists UK, Andrew Copson, said: “One of the most striking things about these census results is how at odds the population is from the state itself. No state in Europe has such a religious setup as we do in terms of law and public policy, while at the same time having such a non-religious population.”

Oh, I don't know about that. We don't have an established church here but we never 'needed' one. We have an explicitly catholic/christian constitution, religious oaths for state offices, 95% of primary schools controlled by a church. In reality as opposed to census box-ticking, are we really that more religious than the UK in practice? Sure according to the census we're nearly all enthusiastic and proficient Irish speakers too...

Peregrinus · 01-12-2022 2:28am

The percentage increase in Islam (and Hinduism) is partly attributable to immigration, but in fact is mainly attributable to a higher propensity in young Muslim/Hindu adults to maintain their "inherited" affiliation; they are less likely than their Christian counterparts to become no-religionists when they enter adulthood.

This doesn't necessarily indicate any greater degree of religious faith or religious practice on their part; it could be that their religious identity is bound up with their ethnic identity, and their ethnic identity is a minority one and sometimes a marginalised one. So they maintain their religious identification as an act of individual and communal self-assertion. And of course it could be a bit of both.

Also worth noting that the percentage decline in those expressing a Christian identity is matched by a percentage decline in those expressing an "assertive" non-religious identity — atheist, agnostic, humanist. Both sides seem to be losing ground to the no-religionists. And that might suggest that the underlying trend here is not so much active rejection of religion but more indifference to the question.

Finally, there's always interesting things to be spotted at the margins. The fastest-growing religious identity in the UK is shamanism, up from 650 adherents ten years ago to 8,000 today. In the scale of things that's a tiny number, but the huge percentage increase may nevertheless be significant; shamanism is a religious identity associated with the madder Q-Anon conspiracy theorists (and, as you'll realise , the madder Q-Anon adherents are very mad indeed). It's in that environment that people are most likely to encounter shamanism.

Finally finally, it should be mentioned that these figures are for England and Wales only. The NI census figures on religion were released some months ago; the Scottish census was delayed until March 2022 because of the pandemic and results aren't expected until next year.

The Decline of Religion

Comments

Might Covid and 2020 mark a final rupture in history of Irish Catholicism?