The Irish protocol.

FrancieBrady · 06-08-2021 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717910#Comment_117717910

FFS, have you been asleep?

Our government kept you in the EU downcow, not to benefit you but to benefit those who cherish their Irish citizenship...as a consequence you get EU benefits, BUT (Please read this) if you want to work in the EU or avail of any benefits personally YOUR PASSPORT will have to be Irish.

It's not that hard to grasp.

P.S. It is why the more sensible of your British identifying brethren are applying for Irish passports in their droves. You just have to swallow hard and accept you are a citizen of Ireland.

ittakestwo · 06-08-2021 11:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717858#Comment_117717858

But you referred to a person as an English man.... there is no sovereign country England but you still refer to them as the place (England) they were from. So why can't a person refer to you as being from Ireland even tho the island is not one sovereign country? If a person can be described as English a person from anywhere in Ireland can be referred to as Irish. Neither England or the island of Ireland are a sovereign country but still have demonym for its inhabitants. English being from England and Irish being from Ireland.

downcow · 06-08-2021 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717940#Comment_117717940

Like the South American I will ask the context ie do you mean the country or the island?

if you mean the island then tear away. But don’t imply I am from the country.

Junkyard Tom · 06-08-2021 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717858#Comment_117717858

Yes you were born in our partitioned country. If terrorists divided Scotland it would still be Scotland.

downcow · 06-08-2021 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717934#Comment_117717934

Are you saying your link was wrong then? It was very clear

BonnieSituation · 06-08-2021 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717858#Comment_117717858

You've used that convenient anecdote before.

Can you answer my questions in relation to your Protocol concerns?

BonnieSituation · 06-08-2021 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117716502#Comment_117716502

What checks are petty?

Why are they endless?

FrancieBrady · 06-08-2021 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718002#Comment_117718002

How was it 'wrong'????

You get the benefits of being in the EU by virtue of the fact that you are in the EU still,(see where the border is in the Irish Sea? Well the other side of that border is NOT in the EU) and in order to work in the EU or travel or get any personal benefits you have to have an Irish passport.

This is what Brexit was about downcow.

Did you not realise this...that's pretty shocking to be honest.

downcow · 07-08-2021 7:07am

Francie can you park the patronising antagonism.

is there anyone can help me with a legal question?

francie posted this https://www.dfa.ie/citizenship/

my interpretation of it may well be entirely wrong, but it seems clear to me.

it says “If you or your parent were born on the island of Ireland before 2005, you are an Irish citizen”

and goes on to say “what does being and Irish citizen mean? You are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union. You have certain rights. These include the right to live and work in Ireland and the EU”

this is a big surprise to me (if true) I understood an Irish passport was required for this access, this clearly says it is not required but is another right you can take up. I am also interested what that means for health care etc in EU and Ireland

any thoughts?

KildareP · 07-08-2021 7:21am

Still waiting on answers, Downcow:

If you argue against the NIP because it didn't receive consent, are you not arguing against the validity of Brexit itself?

And I see you are dodging questions from others too

What parts of the NIP checks are endless and petty?

What do you propose replacing them with?

downcow · 07-08-2021 7:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718027#Comment_117718027

Bonnie I have genuinely tried to answer this question for you on several occasions.

it is for the very reason that they are endless that I cannot list them all. It’s petty checks and petty rules. I don’t want to bore people again but I’ll give you a few direct examples of how they have impacted me already.

1) (rules)if I go to a pedigree bull sale in Scotland will a bull and also to buy a bull (a common practice for farmers). I cannot buy a bull that my next door neighbour has taken over or I can’t bring my own bull home if unsold - I can though buy an English bull and bring it home with no difficulties.

2) (rules) my daughter who is temp living in Scotland, had to get rabies vaccination and a health certificate for her dog visiting ni last month, while GB & NI are both rabies free and EU is not - cost her over £200 and a lot of hassle.

3) (checks) I bought a cctv camera just before protocol. It’s a great job and thought I would buy another couple of same supplier. I ordered, order was then cancelled. I contacted them and they said they were not delivering to ni as it was no longer economically viable due to the “rediculous checks and repeditve paperwork”

4) (checks) significant number of items I have ordered from GB require me to hunt several suppliers until I find one prepared to deliver to me. This is new

that’s an honest attempt to answer your question bonnie. If you think I have ducked something then please be specific about it and I will try again

07-08-2021 7:27am

The person who made this thread is offended by the notion that they might be Irish but at the same time, called the thread the IRISH protocol instead of the NI protocol. Cognitive dissonance is an olympic sport to some of these headbangers.

PokeHerKing · 07-08-2021 7:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718528#Comment_117718528

As disingenuous as ever downcow. The full paragraph is below. Why leave out the bit that answers your own question?

"If you or your parent were born on the island of Ireland before 2005, you are an Irish citizen. You can apply for an Irish passport without making an application for citizenship."

PokeHerKing · 07-08-2021 7:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718552#Comment_117718552

The person who made this thread barely knows which way is up. They're on an Irish discussion forum fighting for their British ness because no British forum would have a bogs notion what they were talking about. It must be a fairly pathetic existence in truth and I'm starting to feel a modicum of pity for them.

downcow · 07-08-2021 7:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718541#Comment_117718541

Waiting on answers and not liking answers are two different things.

I have just answered the question on petty checks. Your other question on brexit/protocol consent, I have answered many times.

but here it is again

I completely hold to the right of my internationally recognised nation (the Uk) to hold a referendum. I don’t think that it is practical to carve off the bits like London, most of Scotland and west of the Bann who happened to have majorities that felt differently. Even though I did not vote for brexit and did not think it was the correct move

I also completely uphold and respect anyone’s right to organise, agitate, lobby, etc for a new referendum etc. Fair play to them

Now with regard to the NIP. This was negotiated by my government and the EU. No referendum, so very different.

it has resulted in some crazy outcomes. One being that we are beholding to the rules of the EU but have no way of influencing them - a clear democratic deficit. Do you know anywhere in the western world where the people making the rules are not answerable to the electorate? A court also holds jurisdiction over us and our elected representatives have no influence on it - again is there an example of this in the western world?

so I completely uphold people’s right to agitate, lobby, protest, drag their heals, etc to bring it to a more palatable place.

what is your problem with any of this?

downcow · 07-08-2021 7:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718552#Comment_117718552

I am not offended. I’m only educating.

if I said you were British would you be offended? I guess, if you are not British, you would just want to educate me.

so no offence taken by me. Just trying to educate

downcow · 07-08-2021 7:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718564#Comment_117718564

Haha. Brits out (of the forum)

Fionn1952 · 07-08-2021 8:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718565#Comment_117718565

This is entirely incorrect, Downcow. First of all, if a UK wide vote for Brexit was an appropriate mandate, then a UK wide vote to give the Tory Party a significant enough majority to do what they did is also a sufficient mandate.....never mind the fact that the DUP were at the negotiating table the whole way through to represent the interest of the majority of Unionists.

As you've been told several times, if the majority of your elected representatives in NI do not support the Protocol, then it will be removed at the next, 'checkpoint'

As for the rest of your rant, the people making the rules that apply to you are right over there in Westminster; that's your avenue for having changes made. Your government have made an agreement on your behalf. They've agreed to it all, and remember....Parliament is Sovereign.

downcow · 07-08-2021 8:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718562#Comment_117718562

I am honestly not trying to be disingenuous and I apologise if the quote was misleading. It’s all there on the link and it is a very short easy read.

tell what I am getting wrong?

as I read it, everyone born on the island is an Irish citizen - no passport required - is this correct?

all Irish citizens have the right to ‘apply’ for an Irish passport if they so desire, but no mandate to do so to maintain your citizenship - is this correct?

all Irish citizens have the right to live or work in EU - is this correct?

downcow · 07-08-2021 8:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718592#Comment_117718592

I can’t find anything in your post that is correct.

you say “if” a Uk wide referendum was a mandate. Sort of suggests you are not sure so we have two different starting points.

the Uk wide referendum was for a Uk wide decision for the entire Uk. That’s very different than a government (of people like boris) deciding that part of the Uk should be treated differently. Also the sovereign parliament has no input into the rules ni will have to abide by and we elect no one to the body that does, so there is a clear democratic deficit that exists nowhere else in the western world that I am aware of

we’ll have to disagree on this one.

but do you agree that we have a right to lobby, agitate, etc to get it changed? Or do you think we should just accept it the way the roi quietly accepted partition ?

PokeHerKing · 07-08-2021 8:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718578#Comment_117718578

I think the correct term for you is plastic brit.

PokeHerKing · 07-08-2021 8:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718593#Comment_117718593

Where you born with a British passport downcow? But yet you were born a British citizen correct? But you still had to apply for a passport to do stuff correct? But you didn't need to apply for British citizenship, correct?

Do you see where this is going? Or is your comprehension damaged? Is this why you've such difficulty understanding the protocol?

Fionn1952 · 07-08-2021 8:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718603#Comment_117718603

Oh no, I 100% support the right of people to peacefully protest. I'll go a step further, I also 100% support their right to drop down to Dublin and peacefully protest no matter how disjointed, idiotic and misguided that concept is. I'll skip over the obvious baiting comment regarding Partition because it is beneath us all to stoop to that level. If you wish to discuss that, we can do so in an appropriate thread, or you can feel free to PM me without the sneering tones and I'll be happy to respond.

The UK wide referendum was certainly for a UK wide decision. The UK election was also for a UK wide decision to jettison NI and treat it differently.

I am certainly saying, 'IF' with regards to whether I consider a referendum that doesn't pass in two of the four constituent parts of a supposed Union to be a mandate, but I'm accepting that you see it as sufficient mandate and pointing out the logical frailty of accepting that mandate and ignoring the mandate the Tory Party received to carry out their vision of Brexit, and also pointing out that as Parliament is Sovereign, your government (of people like Boris....some would say you get the government you deserve) can essentially make whatever decision it wants on your behalf; I believe Jacob Reese Moggs (as much of a toad as the man is) explained it quite well to one of your compadres of a Loyalist persuasion in that very parliament.

downcow · 07-08-2021 8:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718626#Comment_117718626

So are you telling me that the current NIP (no matter who agreed it) does not create a democratic deficit for people from ni ie we have no power to vote for those who decide eg chlorinated chicken or not?

....and apologies, that probably was a goading remark on partition. I should not let me self get drawn down to the level of several posters here who constantly goad at me. I think the last post has me as a plastic Brit haha - I can’t work out whether that is an elevation from his insistence that I was entirely Irish

so sorry about that comment

Fionn1952 · 07-08-2021 8:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718652#Comment_117718652

I'd argue that membership of the United Kingdom creates that democratic deficit, Downcow. As I've said repeatedly, Parliament is sovereign. That's the state you wish to be part of.

As the NI Protocol explicitly contains checks and measures to ensure NI consent, and as it was agreed by your UK-wide government (the same mandate that applied to Brexit in general) I certainly wouldn't agree that it creates a democratic deficit.....what you're looking for is a step back to your good old Unionist Veto (the democratic deficit of which you don't seem to have such a problem with).

downcow · 07-08-2021 8:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718621#Comment_117718621

Oh I see where it is going alright. Exactly to where I thought it was until I read francies link.

you are still not answering my question?

let me try it another way. Are you disagreeing with the link and suggesting an Irish citizens rights in EU are qualified by them owning a current Irish passport.

I honestly don’t know why so many are getting upset and snarky about my question. It should be of interest to all of us.

where would we get an official answer?

downcow · 07-08-2021 8:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718617#Comment_117718617

Maybe you could get the mods to introduce a policy of ‘no plastics’, true Irish and true brits only allowed on the forum

PokeHerKing · 07-08-2021 8:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718666#Comment_117718666

Yes of course it is, without a passport you're just a sack of meat and bones. I mean you can't even leave your own little enclave to the "mainland" without ID downcow. How do you think you got that ID? Do you then think there's some tangible link between your own British citizenship and a passport?

I'm going back to not engaging you, you're bad for my BP.

jm08 · 07-08-2021 9:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718528#Comment_117718528

A passport is a piece of paper to support the claim of citizenship. If say you are travelling to France on your British passport, you can't expect the immigration official to know that as you were born in Northern Ireland, you are entitled to Irish/EU citizenship. You need an Irish Passport to prove it.

The Constitution was changed with the GFA to confer a Constitutional Right for people born in NI to Irish citizenship. There was some issue about passport tourism where women who wanted to secure EU citizenship from Africa in particular were coming over to Ireland from GB to have their babies in Irish maternity hospitals and thus securing Irish/EU citizenship and then returning to GB as once born in Ireland they they were entitlted to Irish citizenship. That is why it was changed to a requirement for one of the parents to be born on the island of Ireland to stop this passport tourism.

This will explain better for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

FrancieBrady · 07-08-2021 9:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718603#Comment_117718603

The UK government is mandated by dint of being democratically elected.

Do we need Rees Mogg to spell it out again?

It has been spelt out to you what being an Irish citizen means and what Ireland achieved for it's citizens in the north of Ireland. Keeping you mostly in the EU and giving you all the benefits of being an EU citizen if you have an Irish passport. Benefits that won't accrue to you abroad if you have a British passport.

But you will also keep denying that fact in your disingenuous way.

The Irish protocol.

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