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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Glad to see Deegan is back from his knee injury. He's a quality player, but was usurped by Doris over the last few seasons.


    He's the best ball handler of all our forwards though. If he can hit form again he could be devastating as a passing and offloading option.





  • Registered Users Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I'm delighted to see him back! Getting opportunities though, could be tough. I think it will take an injury to get him into the mix. Conan for me, is the 1st choice 8, Doris the back up and then Deegan!

    He has his work cut out to get back to where he was. But, the talent is there!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    They tend to go fairly 'horses-for-courses' with the back row selections.

    If it's a game we expect to dominate, we could see Doris at 6 and Conan at 8. But if it's an away game against a massive French pack for example, I see them going for Ruddock at 6.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭jacothelad




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    I think a huge part of being a pack that can't be bullied is having a locks and blindside combination with sufficient size and physicality and presence in the tight. For me that means Ruddock or Murphy at blindside for the foreseeable - until someone like maybe Alexis Soroka starts challenging anyway. Doris and Conan are better at 8. Baird is too loose. And, assuming he comes back, Leavy's lack of a lineout game isn't ideal for a six.

    I think I prefer Murphy to Ruddock. Ruddock's body position can be a bit upright in contact. I think Murphy is more effective on both sides of the ball, and is probably better in the maul.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    There is only 2kgs in the difference and one cm in height between Murphy and Doris. Which is pretty negligible in terms of physicality. The main difference between them would be athleticism more than physicality. Murphy tends to go through players, while Doris goes by them. I don’t think Doris lacks physicality, he just doesn’t use himself as a battering ram. He’s plenty physical in defence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    For me, the brute force/battering ram form of physicality is what you're looking for in a blindside. It's a bit like picking Quinn Roux. There might be better second rows, but having someone with his particular strengths in the pack frees up other players to play their own games and allows them perform better. Murphy is big and physical enough and good enough in the tight to fill in in the second row (at league level anyway). Doris in the row would be a real weakness, you'd have to think.

    That's just my opinion anyway, the way I see things. It's why I think Deegan is quite a poor blindside, despite being an excellent 8. I know who I'd be picking if it came down to Doris versus Murphy for the 6 jersey. Doris is the higher level player, but I think a pack with Murphy at 6 is more likely to play better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I reckon if it comes down to a choice of two out of three on the pitch. Between Conan, Doris and Murphy. Murphy will lose out every single time. Even Ruddock who is a better player than Murphy IMO would lose out to those two.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Agreed

    There is no circumstance outside of injury and player rotation that Murphy gets selected ahead of any combination of those players.

    He's a journeyman pro that does a good reliable job in run of the mill league games , he's never getting selected on merit for a critical fixture ahead of any of the other 6 International back-rows available to Leinster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    You really think van der Flier, Connors and Deegan would be better options at blindside than Murphy?

    To me, that's like saying Cian Healy would be a better selection at tighthead than Michael Bent.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    Didn't see it mentioned here but we have a pre season game presumably in Donnybrook against Harlequins on September 10th.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Frankly - Yes.

    Selecting a backrow for a key game , Murphy isn't even in the conversation for the 23.

    Doris, Conan, Deegan and Ruddock are all players that would be orders of magnitude ahead of Murphy at 6 or 8. VdF is a clear 7 , but both Connors and Leavy are absolutely options at both 6 or 7. Equally Baird is a far better 6 than Murphy.

    So I miss counted earlier , there are 8 Internationals ahead of Murphy for a match day squad. So , when selecting a back-row and bench combination, barring injuries he's simply not even in the conversation for big games.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    They are probably waiting on the government to lift restrictions on outdoor events before deciding on a venue. If it remains a percentage of overall capacity, I’d imagine is played in the RDS.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I wouldn't have anyone other than Ruddock ahead of Murphy at blindside. He's a powerful carrier and does the grunt work.

    Any word on academy intakes



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,497 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Henshaw should be the starting 13 this season.


    Discuss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Yes, I think so. The Henshaw/Ringrose partnership hasn't really had the potency against the stiffest opposition Leinster face.

    I think 12. Conor O'Brien, 13. Robbie Henshaw would be the most difficult duo to defend against.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I disagree. Throughout their time together at Leinster Ringrose has been the better 13. He had a poor season by his standards, but the year before he was voted the best player in Ireland. He'll come back a better player I'm sure.


    And Henshaw is simply the best 12 in the squad by a fair distance. The Ringshaw axis is still the best use of resources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    The thing about Henshaw and Ringrose is that it's just two players doing their own thing. They don't really play off each other. Henshaw is more limited as an attacking force when playing inside centre, and Ringrose hasn't shown much game understanding when it comes to linking up and attacking as a collective.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I think GR at 12 and Henshaw at 13 would definitely be worth a look next season. It would be pretty low risk but potentially very high reward.

    Frawley and Henshaw went very well last season when they played too.

    It comes down to whether getting your best players on the field, even if it means playing one player in a position where he's not his best (but still very good), or getting the absolute best out of one player, is best for the team.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I'd definitely like to see Frawley at 12 some more. He's a very good distributor and kicker. He's played more at 10, but I think he benefits from the extra split second he has at inside centre.


    I had hoped that last season would be his breakthrough into Leinsters full strength 23. He played well when he started, but his season was ruined by injury. Hoping he has bette luck this time around.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,497 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I'd like to see Frawley or O'Brien giving a good run at 12 this year. We need more creativity in the centers, and don't think Robbie and Garry have deliythat together.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Maybe Henshaw is a better 13 than Ringrose, but we need both of them on the pitch. Neither Frawley nor anyone else is on the same level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    This is true when Ringrose is playing well and can be relied on to be available, which unfortunately wasn't the case last season. Perhaps that will change.

    But when you have a player as good as Henshaw on you hands (and I'd 100% put him in the "world class" category now) you'd be mad not to play him in his strongest position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Conor O'Brien hasn't played for Leinster in almost two years lads.


    Much like Leavy, I've zero hopes or expectations for him to come back and be an important member of the team. Would just like to see him get healthy again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    The trouble is Frawley, Conor O'Brien and Tommy O'Brien are injury prone, so it might come down to selecting a partnership from Henshaw, Ringrose, O'Loughlin and Jimmy O'Brien.

    Henshaw, Ringrose

    Henshaw, JOB

    Ringrose, Henshaw

    O'Loughlin, Henshaw

    They're the options.

    It'd be great if COB could get an injury-free run. He's got power, footwork, good draw and pass skills (as well as the awareness to use them) and a good kicking game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    TOB is another guy I've high hopes for. Looks a Rolls Royce of a player. Just makes the right decision time after time. I could see him as a playmaking centre down the line. But his future could easily be as a wing in the Nacewa mould. Someone who could be used as a strike runner, but also a playmaking threat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Completely agree, I really liked what I've seen from him.

    Can play 11, 12, 13 and 14 competently which is very handy

    There's also the issue of whether they see Jamie Osbourne as a 13 or a 15.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I think TOB could be an excellent 14. He'll have a hard task of replacing Larmour, who has a skillset unlike.any other back three player in Ireland though.


    Osborne looked very good at 15 for the U20's. But whether his future lies at 13 or 15 he still faces the same problem of trying to replace a surefire Ireland test starter. Ringrose and Keenan own those jerseys at the minute.


    I think Osborne may be better off focusing on 13. Jimmy O'Brien has looked very good at full back when he's deputised for Keenan. But there's less certainty over Ringrose's cover. RoL is decent but nothing special.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Osbourne has a far higher ceiling than J.O'B IMO. I genuinely think he could surpass him next season (if he's played at 15).

    I think he's a 15. He's excellent in the air and he has a massive left boot. He no doubt could play 13 as he has a great feel for the game, but I think his skillset could be utilised best from 15.

    Wouldn't be surprised if he plays on the wing a bit next season to drip feed him in.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I agree with you that Osborne looks the business at fullback. But I'm just looking at a squad depth perspective. There more need for another decent 13 than 15. Ultimately I think he'll perform well in either position.



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