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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭Fly_away


    A Norway style Brexit would never be sustainable under a Conservative government. They find it really difficult to swallow rule taking for NI under the protocol, permanent subjugation for the entire UK would be unimaginable to them.

    I'm glad it never materialised as the outcome during the hung parliament of 2017-2019 because it would've created an almighty mess and permanent uncertainty for the EU for years to come.



  • Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭Fly_away


    Lots of kinks to be ironed out in the NI protocol, I totally agree with that. And I think many improvements will be made over time.


    But there is one major obstacle to that at the moment; David Frost and the UK government. They have repeatedly demonstrated that they are bad faith actors and the EU thinks they are not committed to implementing the fundamentals of the protocol. The UK needs to build trust and start doing the things it agreed to. The sharing of trade flow data, for instance - which would actually help the EU make better determinations with regards threats to the SM. Yet the UK is dragging its heels on stuff like this because they don't want mitigations, they want to find ways to renege on the agreement they signed.


    If Frost is removed and the UKG demonstrates commitment to making the protocol work, the EU can reciprocate in a spirit of cooperation. The UK is blocking this at the moment, unfortunately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I don’t think it is daft of me to be prepared to accept the will of the people even though I was fairly undecided.

    London voted against brexit so not sure what you mean about them choosing it. They have simply accepted the will of the people

    the rest of what you posted you seem to be arguing with yourself. I completely agree that eu should set their own rules and if Uk want to export then we need to meet those conditions and vice versa



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am not sure who Michael Martin is but I see LCC have had a strong go at coveny over the weekend. I’ll try and post it for you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    And the UK have decided that they do want to export to the EU, hence entering into negotiations on how to facilitate that.

    Eventually it all leads back to the logical position that either

    1) The UK agree to maintain standards that are in compliance with the EU

    2) Goods leaving the UK for the EU are subject to checks

    3) the EU undermines itself in an effort to placate the UK and decided to just take their word for it.


    As 1 has already been rejected by the UK, and 3 obviously isn't going to be acceptable to the EU, that leaves us just with Option 2.

    So the question arises as to where to have those checks. There is the seemingly obvious choice of erecting border infrastructure on the border between the EU and the UK, but due to the porous nature of that border and for historic reasons, both sides have agreed this is not suitable.

    There could be checks between Ireland and the rest of the EU, which while perhaps favoured by you would effectively be reducing Ireland's EU membership and forcing Ireland to take on the burden of the UK's decision to Brexit....again, undermining the EU, hardly likely to be acceptable to the EU whom you're trying to get an agreement with.

    Or there is what we ended up with. Not ideal, but seems better than the alternatives to me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,741 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Does it make you feel all edgy to pretend you don't know stuff about the south?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd say in the grand scheme of things, nobody's really sure who the LCC is, or why a group of unelected people, who appear to represent terrorist organisations, are even being discussed in the same context as actual political parties or elected representatives.

    They may give some sense of the temperature in loyalist areas, but I honestly find the "I don't know who Michael Martin is" comment a bit bizarre for someone who's posting for many months in a forum on the intricacies of Brexit, when he's the head of government in your neighbouring state.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    As somebody has explained to me alot of sports are in all Ireland formats. It is more practical and cheaper to have all Ireland format in many sports......Get on a coach in Belfast and play a team in Dublin or get a plane in Belfast to play in Liverpool?

    So alot of athletes from the North will be in these all Ireland systems and have built up relationships with coach's and fellow athletes so many will continue to play for an all Ireland team when it comes to the Olympics.

    Given the amount of athletes from the North on team Ireland I do think that an all Ireland flag and anthem should be used. I don't think the branding of team GB is helping convince athletes from the North to switch over either when it comes to the Olympics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yeah, certainly anyone who thinks the team are representing the whole island should want an island flag and anthem as opposed to ones that only represent part of the island.

    personsally I can’t see my allegiance changing from an all Uk team to an all island team.

    it’s seems that some don’t just want an Irish see border on trade but the also want it on sport. This is illuminating about what the real agenda is of Irish Sea trade border



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    .....are you suggesting that the Team Ireland Olympics team, and the cross border sports associations across the island (which massively predate any move towards Brexit) are in some way connected to the sea border?!?

    This is delusional stuff.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 274 ✭✭mehico


    This is possibly an example of one of the criticisms of the older generation of Unionist thinking, in that it was seen as insular looking and uninterested or unwilling of informing itself of any wider affairs outside of Unionism.

    Conversely, while listening to the Nolan show a few weeks ago, a journalist contributing to a discussion involving the Protocol described Micheal Martin as one of Unionisms best friends, if only they could see it!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,741 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think it is just fabulous in the extreme that downcow thinks for a second anyone believes he doesn't know who Micheál Martin is.

    His inability to spell names properly (even when it is pointed out to him) pretence that he doesn't know the basic geography of the country south of Newry is all connected.

    An insecure pretence by a certain type of Unionist that this place doesn't matter to them while also playing the sincere Unionist who 'wants to understand'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Well the first bit is highly doubtful considering you have referenced him on multiple threads. Secondly I don't think we would benefit from you posting the LCC ramblings. The fact they blame someone in the Irish government for a deal signed by a British PM who doesn't give 2 f"cks to Northern Ireland is testament to reality that their community will be stuck in the dark ages for a long long time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭ittakestwo




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I doubt I ever referenced MM (link please) I have heard of him but I honestly don’t know what role he does and I would not know him if he walked into the room.

    apart from those with norther connections like Gerry etc my knowledge of roi politicians would be limited to Leo, coveny, MDH- that’s probably it of the top of my head. The others just don’t feature up here



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I thought they used the Ireland country flag and anthem rather than and all island one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    I have checked and they're just using the ROI flag for team Ireland.


    There should be flag used to represent all of the Irish nation. Team Ireland using a flag that only represents part of the Irish nation is actually similar to a team that represents all of the UK and overseas territorys calling itself just team Great Britain.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,055 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    All posters, drop the personal remarks and sly digs at each other. It's gone on long enough at this stage



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    How do you represent people in the Irish Nation who despise the very idea of an Irish Nation and want nothing to do with it?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭mariab21


    So you don't know the leader of the country who would be in talks with your own party leaders and the British Govt on the thread subject?

    Are you serious?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    I listen/watch a fair bit of BBC NI/BBC 'Ulster' Radio and you'd have to be genuinely ignorant of current affairs not to know who the Taoiseach is.

    There's a thing with the the extreme end of the spectrum of unionism where its adherents like to pretend that they don't live in Ireland amongst the Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    I don't think you can represent them but I don't think they would ever represent team Ireland anyway. There is some athletes who are obviously from unionist backgrounds (20 out of the 27 from the North at the Olympics are representing Ireland) who dont have a problem representing Ireland ... like Rory Mcllroy for instance. But as pointed out despite him willing to play for team Ireland he is very quick to drop the tricolour flag if placed on him. Presumably he just associates this with the south where he is not from.

    Political pionts could be won here if a team Ireland had a flag and anthem for all of Ireland while team GB which is also suppose to be representing the North continues with the branding team GB.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I was going to google it last night but didn’t get around to it. I am genuinely surprised he is Taoiseach. I assumed coveny was Taoiseach and I was thinking after being chastised yesterday that he was either equivalent of Secretary of State, guy with responsibility for ni or even coalition leader (if there is a coalition, which I thought there wasn’t)

    anyhow I am going to carry out a little experiment in work this morning. I am going to ask a few people randomly, who is the Taoiseach of Ireland and I will report back honestly (I am pretty sure in advance, some will say, what is the Taoiseach). I work in a predominantly catholic workforce so I’ll keep a score of who said what.

    any of you who work in a ni setting should do the same. It’s an interesting question.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    That’s a classic response from both sides in ni. I hear exactly that when I push for the removal of gstq as the ni football anthem.

    how you represent people is you try to ensure you don’t use stuff that is exclusive to one community and try to find stuff that both communities feel represented by it’s not rocket science. And then it is over to them whether they are interested

    eg NI should not play gstq, IRFU & GAA should not play SS at their games. It’s just basic manners



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I agree with your recent posts. It’s refreshing to here someone from roi take a such conciliatory and understanding position.

    I do though think you should not assume that just because unionists compete for Ireland, means they have no problem competing for Ireland. Rory expresses this problem in many articles. And it’s the same for nationalists representing NI or UK.

    I know someone very well who represents Ireland and they find it extreme difficult at times because of the assumptions within the setup that they are Irish and should be comfortable with the trappings. I, as a NI football supporter, see similar within our team, particularly as they line up for anthem.

    it’s very difficult in a contested society, but there is an onus on all sports to make the effort



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I have just educated myself - and quite an education it was. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1151020/

    I was very surprised how lacking of knowledge I was on the makeup of Ireland’s government. Very surprised to see a 3way coalition. I have only ever heard of 4 of them Leo, MM, SC and for some strange reason Simon Harris.

    I honestly would have had to take the money no matter what question relating to them, had I been on ‘who wants to be a millionaire’.

    would you guys all know the manager of the NI football team? I interested in our different knowledges



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    One second there now, GSTQ is the British national anthem. Fewer than half the population in the north are Unionists, fewer than 35% self-identify as British (falling) so GSTQ has no business at sporting events there at all.

    As for the National flag/Anthem of Ireland? You have no say on that until you sign up for a United Ireland, and even then it will be as minority who will have their views heard but who won't be making demands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I don’t disagree with any of that.

    if it is a team representing the country of Ireland then the SS is the appropriate anthem. (Or whatever the Irish people want)

    if it is a team representing the UK then gstq is the appropriate anthem.

    if it is a team representing either the island of Ireland or NI then neither of the above anthems are appropriate.

    (in my view)

    ps even that’s not perfect as I would recognise the chill factor for a NI nationalist representing the UK when gstq is played but I don’t see a simple answer to that one and I don’t see an equivalent dilemma the other way around - I simply don’t know how a Donegal ulster Scot feels about SS. The difference in these two cases is that the person has chosen to live in the jurisdiction



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I would expect anyone with a modicum of interest in politics who isn't incredibly myopic to know the leadership of their neighbouring countries, Downcow.

    While at an obvious advantage with regards to NI myself, I'd expect the vast majority of my social circle to know the basics of the makeup of the devolved governments of NI, Scotland and Wales and to be able to name the First Minister and main parties in play there.

    Likewise, I'm aware Ian Barraclough is the NI Manager, having taken over from Michael O'Neill a few months back.....because it was reported in the Sports news here, much like Micheál Martin would be referenced quite regularly on news in NI, particularly with regards to Brexit.



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