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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    The investigation has not concluded. No prosecution has been brought forward, that’s different. I don’t know if IB did it, only the person or people who were there know that. There’s no physical evidence that Ian Bailey or anyone else was there when the murder took place.

    I agree with Judge Moran that the various witnesses were telling the truth, and as Judge Moran pointed out, some ‘confessions’ may just have been bravado. I also agree with Judge Hedigan that it would have been dereliction of duty if gardai had not arrested him based on the information in the investigative file at that time. I think the jury made the right call when it rejected Marie Farrell’s new story about gardai pressuring her and making her sign blank statements. These are all legitimate, transparent institutions of the state.



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    You are basically saying he is not legally innocent because you don't think he is innocent.

    The legal system doesn't work like that. You are nothing more than part of a digital lynch mob.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    If you want to think that, that’s fine but just a few pages back you are heavily hinting you think Alfie Lyons might have been involved, had a ‘convenient’ excuse for having a bandaged hand (where is this corroborated?) or for forensics finding traces of him at the scene of the murder and you also wondered if the gate dispute ever escalated to having the gardai involved. I don’t accept your hypocritical criticism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,348 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Yeah a lot of the pearl-clutching talk about the 'West Cork drug scene' in this thread is remiscent of this




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Maybe a solicitor or Garda can confirm but it would be a fairly oppressive state where you could be held regularly for 24 hours with no charges.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,348 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Is there anything in the public domain linking this old guy's account to the homicidal Garda (or to any particulart suspect)?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Maybe the ‘partial proof’ is that another person, other than the one who made the ‘admission’ bought or supplied the chlorine mentioned in another article?



  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭CowgirlBoots




  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    This is from an advice leaflet on citizen's rights



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    Alfie Lyons is dead.

    Ian Bailey is alive

    Ian has to be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt to be legally not presumed innocent.

    Pointing out a dead man had means, motive and opportunity and himself had injuries consistent with a violent struggle casts reasonable doubt.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I have said several times that Alfie was retired, that Shirley had retired from her teaching job in the UK that year, both were in their mid 60s, Alfie had difficulties breathing meaning he had to quit his casual job as a baker the year before.

    I know this as I knew Alfie quite well both socially and through work, and was at Shirley's retirement party in Aug '96.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Sophie always kept the outside light on, and this was even commented on by Shirley Lyons in her original statement.

    Before herself and Alfie retired for the night, she noticed the outside light still on (which was normal) and would have stood out against the darkness of the landscape in that bleak part of the world.

    After the murder, the outside light had been turned off - Something Sophie never did?

    Did the murderer return to the house and close the door / switch the lights off? How many murders would rationally think of such a task after indulging in a frenzied attack moments earlier??

    I suggest Sophie's blood stain on the door was left there by the murderer. He returned to the house to shut the doors and turn off the lights to make the property look less conspicuous, or give the impression the occupant was in bed.. The bloodstain being left by a bloodied glove he was wearing at the time of the killing?

    Did he spot the unopened bottle of expensive wine and impulsively snatch it, only to think better of it further down the road? Does anybody know how far from the road the wine bottle was located?? Was it thrown by a person on foot (can throw further), or thrown from a car window (would be near the ditch).

    The wine bottle is relevant to this case - What set of circumstances prevailed that placed it in a field discarded in such a hurry?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "After the murder, the outside light had been turned off - Something Sophie never did?"

    Did she leave it on day and night?

    If it was in the morning she may have turned it off herself and stepped outside for something.

    "I suggest Sophie's blood stain on the door was left there by the murderer. He returned to the house to shut the doors and turn off the lights to make the property look less conspicuous, or give the impression the occupant was in bed.. The bloodstain being left by a bloodied glove he was wearing at the time of the killing?"

    Do all that and walk past the lifeless body in plain view to anyone on the way to the house?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    I think the bottle of wine might be a red herring, it could have been stolen and thrown away or dropped before or after the murder. It wasn't found during the initial searches for the murder weapon so I suspect some ghoul broke in to have a poke around the crime scene, then realised coming away with a souvenir wasn't the brightest idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭solasGael


    Nick Foster's book has the likely path that Sophie took from the house to the gate which is different from your map. According to Foster, blood and other evidence indicates the attack on Sophie began on the west side of the house (left side facing it). From the house, Sophie crossed down and to the right, then through a secondary gate connecting to the main driveway, then down the main driveway a bit towards the road where her body was found.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    IB is widely described as the 'prime suspect', articles often call him the 'self confessed prime suspect'. He has given endless interviews about his involvement in the garda investigation and his own reporting on the crime. He was found guilty in a court in France. He failed in two court actions to prove he was set up. His name is inextricably linked with being a suspect, Alfie Lyons was not and is not around to publicly defend himself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭solasGael


    So sad, wonder who the father is. Bailey came to Ireland in 1991.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    A conspiracy is a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. I believe AGS acted unlawfully in not carrying out a full and proper investigation.

    1. Acting against wishes of the state pathologist

    2. Not following up on the multiple sightings of the fiesta

    3. Bribing witnesses with drugs to falsify claims against IB.

    4. The sheer volume of evidence which went "missing"

    You haven't provided a single credible explanation for why they wouldn't have investigated the Fiesta sightings. Anyways, I didn't expect you to because you can't.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    he can't back up anything he says, just moves goalposts to a different claim.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/detention_after_arrest.html

    scroll to the box under

    allowable periods of detention

    they can also release you while they investigate and re arrest later



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Horseh*t, I've asked several people to back up what was contained in the Gemma O'Doherty article with independent sources or official files, not heard anything back yet. Some people are just so infatuated with the idea of conspiracy and corruption that they can't process factual information that contradicts this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    What happens when my detention ends?

    If the Gardaí no longer have any grounds for believing that your detention is necessary to properly investigate the offence or your detention period has expired, then you normally must be either charged with the offence or released from custody. If you are being charged with the offence you are brought before the court.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Says the person who quotes a statement, then when a blatant hole in that statement is shown you say "Oh well people don't always remember things correctly". Surely the same excuse can be made for Ian Bailey using your logic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    1. Acting against wishes of the state pathologist

    The delay in the pathologist getting there was unforseen and out of the control of the gardai. What were the conspirators going to do if he could get there in five hours, get him a ticket to go and watch Fungi the Dolphin? The pathologists request was for two factors, his convenience in going to Cork city instead of the Mizen and the dignity of the victim. None are beneficial for a cover-up.

    2. Not following up on the multiple sightings of the fiesta

    We've not yet been provided with any information from the investigation on the sighting, exactly where it was, what was done to follow up etc. There was a single sighting somewhere in the general area, not multiple as far as I am aware. Can we have some credible information on this please?

    3. Bribing witnesses with drugs to falsify claims against IB.

    This goes against the idea of a conspiracy, if the gardai believed he was going to confess to a witness, they must also have believed he was guilty of the crime. If they went to such extraordinary lengths to try and tape him at MF's shop or give details of the crime to Martin Graham then they must have believed he was guilty.

    If they wanted to get false claims against IB they made a very poor job of it as no single witness statement was a 'smoking gun', a jury in the high court found the claims of false statements and garda coercion were not credible and there was no evidence of it. GSOC found the same.

    4. The sheer volume of evidence which went "missing"

    There's nothing to suggest any evidence went missing after the first and second arrests and the file being sent to the DPP at least twice, this does not suggest a conspiracy to frame IB, it suggests the opposite. GSOC noted most, if not all, of the 'missing' items were present during the review in 2002. If the DPP charged IB in 1997 or 1998, all of the evidence was in the case file at that point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Saying a person remembering whether one car of dozens that they interacted with on a Friday evening had hubcaps or not is equivalent to forgetting sleeping on a couch in a strange house on a Saturday night and doing an all-nighter to write a story on the following night while a murder took place, is just dumb.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The article mentions the gardaí wanting to interview the person, 'now living in Europe' the elderly local claimed he discussed it with in the last year but doesn' t mention interviewing the person who confessed it to him in a Cork café back in 2001.

    Surely the simplest way to prove it would be to ask the person who he claims confessed it to him back in 2001. Unless that is no longer possible.

    A number of things could partially prove the elderly local's statement. Confirmation of the discussion last year with the person 'now living in Europe', details in the statement that are not in the public domain, corroborating evidence of the meeting in 2001.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭MoonUnit75


    Surely the simplest way to prove it would be to ask the person who he claims confessed it to him back in 2001. Unless that is no longer possible.

    Yes, that would be the simplest thing, but are they then just a witness or a possible accessory to a crime, do they need to be arrested and cautioned and are the grounds strong enough to allow that. Have they been questioned before and the period of detention has been fully used up? Could be any number of reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭TheW1zard




  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭solasGael


    Regarding the matter of the time of the attack, sunrise on Dec 23, 1996 was ca. 8:40am and twilight was ca. 6:30/7:15/8am (astronomical/nautical/civil) . The night was relatively light due to a full moon. Sophie arrived from Paris a mere 3 days prior to her death. I can imagine that she was still on French time which is an hour ahead of Irish time. Assuming a morning attack, Sophie could have woken with the dawn light at ca. 7am (8am French time), turned out the back light and started eating breakfast. It makes more sense that she opened her door and went freely outside in the light of day than in the dark. It was noted by one of the guards (I believe) that there was wet blood in her nostrils. I don't know how this fits (or doesn't) with rigor mortise having begun. It could though fit with the Ford Fiesta sighting at ca. 7:30am. Jules' car which Ian said he had access to that weekend was a white Ford Fiesta.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Another thing that puzzles me is that the various reports about this new statement describe the person as an elderly local man, west Cork resident, who is in his seventies and knew Sophie first made a statement about six years ago.

    The man would have been in his mid forties to mid fifties at the time of the murder. Surely all locals and acquaintances of Sophie would have given some form of a statement at the time of the original investigation even if it was only the response to a standard questionaire.



This discussion has been closed.
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