Proposed New suckler Scheme

Dairy x would struggle here. Cows spend their days grazing to get enough to make milk. Weanlings don’t over fatten here.

we were dairy farmers years ago and it was hardship, the land just isn’t good enough.

We’d 2 AAX & 2 HEX heifers here last year, wild as hell and wouldn’t flesh.

Over the winter they’d out eat a suckler cow and still be skin & bone

We’d other dairy cross before that done well and were quite, it’s likes of these bad ones that turn lads off the dairy cross

That was luck of draw

My point was on the reply to knowledgeknight where HExFR will thrive anywhere isn’t true

Some of the farms cows are knee deep and feeding a calf maybe even grazing heather

Each to their own

Jasus, todays journal doesn't make great reading, doom and gloom, but renting out of entitlements will be allowed.

But their values will be decimated, ..... interesting times ahead

Can’t plant here. Too much forestry around and we have failed the water test and we’re told we would not even be allowed non commercial forestry,

I never said I wanted social welfare to keep a suckler. I more than likely not sign up for the next scheme. I didn’t sign up for The weighing scheme as for the few quid you get for it doesn’t pay for workload.,

I just said dairy x calves would struggle here as the land is very poor.

Dairy animal is not subsdised. Whether anyone like it or not we will have 1.6 million+ dairy calves born every year. The dairy sector is expanding by about 50 k cows/ year at present. We export 200k ish of them as calves for how long more is the question.

Single suckler's hardly existed in this country pre the late 80's, there was a limited amount on poorer land along the west coast. Suckler's were profitable when the Italian and Continental market was stronger than the UK.

UK spec and is for 280-330 kg carcases grading O=to R-, they pay a premium for marbled beef. Basically the higher priced sector taking HE and AA prime cuts is the highest priced beef in the market. This goes to higher end of the Supermarkets and the restaurant trade. That is your AA steak in an UK supermarket or an HE burger in a restaurant or in McD's. However the rest of the market is a mixture the unbranded burger you get at a deli counter or catering trade food.

The average sucker animal even after present subsidity's dies in debt from a farmer's point of view, Along with that it drags the rest of the market down. All this summer a 330 kg AS or HE was grossing 1450-1500 depending on whether you were getting the 10 or 20 c bonus. With the demand for beef this year due to the EURO's and Olympics there was a market for any prime beef. That will not be there longterm.

The heavy Suckler bullocks will be discounted and drag the rest of the market down. The reasons the factory's want Suckler cattle is for winter feeding( unprofitable for farmers because if the price) and to keep the market price down for the rest of the prime market

When you are throwing out figures

How many Suckler cows is there and how many of there calves are exported

Are those calves 400kg now, can they put on a kg/day since purchase say march 2020. easy enough do a kg/da on bought in beast that is old and big framed but young cattle is more difficult. Are they worth €2/kg , so €600 gross margin between buying and now on the ones that lived.

It's not a amrgin you'd be giving up sucklers for

You’re probably not far off I was thinking sucklers must be under the 700k at this stage

When lads lose money they stop paying too much for calves. Quality is improving. There is fewer and fewer first cross jex calves around. But as well the quality of the beef calf is not as poor. Lads have stopped registering first cross JE calves as AA as well

Beef value of Dairy bulls is known from there DNA tests, do the same for Beef bulls make it compulsory to DNA test any beef breed bull in the dairy herd and put the sire on the card.

It's only coming into weanling time of the year so the numbers won't show yet.

Agreed , my figures are very optimistic, firstly the calves won't do kg/day, secondly the guys paying €300 in march 2020 didn't know that the trade would be so buoyant now.

You've a system up and running and even that takes years to get that you get no surprises, you'd be a fool to change.

If you look at my previous posting I have said there are area's in the county that have no choice but suckler's. Mostly hill land along the west coast.

The problem with too many Suckler bred cattle is there is no money for either the lad that has little choice but to do suckler's and it depressed the test of the beef market.

If the necessity was really there processor's would pay a bonus......instead when beef is plentiful they discount the heavy Suckler carcasses. Most Suckler bred cattle need as much ration as a Friesian to finish off grass. Inside in the shed they take longer to finish than HE and AA.

The 7 friesians were probably light for there age but the lad that bought them had a good twist. I could not see a margin on your cattle especially with 2019 prices for any finisher.

The rag has a front page headline this week try to sell itself. ''farmer anger over Suckler quota'' it could just as easy said farmer anger over further Suckler subsidity's. That why I always say it has an agenda. It will print one side of the story.

Yes every farmer is subsidised but this suckler payment is extra on top, agree with jameson above - give every farmer basic fair payment to help conform to EU rules and regs , and then let farmer decide for themselves after that. Didn't join BDGP ( never liked tone where someone else tells me which are " good cows " ) and probably wont join this one either . if anyone doesn't like cap on numbers free to not join.

Overall cap of BPS will stop this. It's interesting that while the FJ and IFA ( as do the INHFA but I understand from there membership) want no quota and increase subsidity for suckler's the ICSA and ICMSA are against it. As.well the FJ, ICMSA and IFA are against convergence (drystock farmers will benefit) the ICSA and INHFA are for it. Nearly a the organisations are for capping and CRISS and most want no labour allowance for capping except IFA and again the FJ.

It a matter of subsidizing farmers not the system. If you subsidise the system it gets sifoned off by non farmerr

This is a real win "friends and influence people " post .

Whats the big issue with the suckler cow ? The single suckled continental cow only arrived here in the late 1980's as a direct consequence of direct payment/subsidy .

Previous to that the idea of keeping any cow ,esp. a large one ,to rear a single calf would have people looking at you like you were mad.Yes it did occur in some very marginal areas but even there the stock kept reflected the terrain ie cattle that could in the main ,be outwintered without tearing up the whole place .

Here at home cows were kept till the early 1980's and once they calved we bought maybe 3/4 more to rear on them .Calves in the shed and cows let in each morning and evening .After maybe 10/12 weeks they were weaned and another couple put on the cow .She might be let run with the last one at grass .All FR or Her/Whitehead type cows .

Circumstances dictated that a change to bucket reared calves was made in the 80's .Reasons I never went for sucklers is that I could never afford them !!!!

Nah it was the investment needed to carry them when things tightened up in the last 25/30 years.The idea of an acre of concrete didn't appeal as the return didn't seem to be there .

Bass is on the money as regards the demand for different types of cattle .Whats this "quality" thing I hear about ?It cannot be the quality of the meat as cattle from the dairy herd are the quality selling/eating beef .

Is the the feed conversation ratio for the farmer ie easier to make a shilling from a bought in/home reared suckled weanling compared to a bucket reared one ?

Or is it what I think ;lads like looking at nice stock or what they perceive as good cattle ?

The following is not aimed at anyone in particular on here as haven't sat down ,went through everyone's posts and made a " full time/part time list" .

A fair few seem to run sucklers along with a full time job .Not for me and admire anyone who has that commitment .But stuff like investing in the farm to keep down PAYE and reinvesting any farm profits back in are not exactly conducive to the idea that sucklers are being kept for economic reasons .Sounds rather like people have a system/way of life that they are comfortable with and perceive any change to this as bad .

From my perspective I have a few sheep here as they were consistently the best paying system for me .Would I change next year if the long term prospects looked bad ?In a heartbeat .

Would I miss the sheep ? Not one bit . They are what I farm not who i am .Even with the sheep have no real gra for "nice " sheep ,rather ones that will leave a return no matter what they are like .With lambs quantity beats quality every day .Not bragging but looking at returns from 2 different factories for this year at least 90% plus of my lambs kill U grade ,the rest R at worst .But this is of no consequence as the price does not reflect this (maybe I should join a producer group but that's another story for another day ).

All the above is a long winded way of saying that I think the suckler cow is facing a slow demise in Ireland and people seem to think throwing good after bad will stop that .I don't think it will and at best will slow down the inexorable shift to dairy beef .

How many will stay single suckling if the cow is not supported over and above other beef systems ?

My understanding is that he is saying that those who take umbrage at discussion which even mention the possibility of any change use tradition as a reason for continued support over and above other farming sectors .

The lack of interest from current generation in your area will hardly change with a suckler cow payment .Think the issue is bigger than that .

I would of course love to farm here like my forefathers did ;few acres of sugar beet ,malting barley and spring wheat ,couple of acres turnips ,multiple suckled BWH cows , some bucket reared calves ,a field of hay for sale ,flock of sheep ,maybe a few store lambs and of course a workman which was the standard here for many many years .

Things change ,maybe not always for the better but thats life .

If people were honest and went with the approach of the suckler cow sub being a support for social good rather than the best way to produce beef then perhaps ?

How is the dairy cow not subsidised. Do the farmers not avail of SFP or the butter intervention scheme a couple year back or avail of TAMs for all these new parlours milking the 200 cows. Maybe if these schemes didn't exist there would be less pressure on the beef industry also. There has been a 50% increase in dairy cows in the last decade, a 15% decrease in sucklers and yet the sucklers are the ones driving down the cost of beef. I understand the point you are trying to make but have you thought that if everyone went at the dairy calf to beef that the price of the calf would increase due to demand and drove any profit there is in that down also. And then we would be producing animals solely reliant on UK market that had just left the EU and are free to deal with anyone.

Also struggling to see how the Olympics in Tokyo or even a subdued Euros has any real impact on the price of beef. The hot weather maybe but the summer wasnt actually that great in the uk this year compared to there standard. More likely down to reduced supply in UK and europe and also food inflation

I wouldnt hold my breath for an improvement in dairy calves either. He is only interested in two things. Less work and more milk. Either of these are not achieved by switching to more beef favourable bulls. Easy calvings and short gestations will still leave the beef man with a group of coat hangers out in the field.

The issue isn't about a farmer single suckling or not ( everyone free to farm as they please ) but whether one type of farming is entitled to an extra payment that another does not get. All farmers can apply to Tams Bps etc. I know tillage farmers feel hard done by at the moment anyway. No single suckling around here ( md west ) either as a matter of interest before subsidies.

They'd be foolish to lobby against it, why should they give a damn about how the farmer feels about it.

Farmers will take money from any scheme they can get it from...... well I would've done so if it suited my system when I was farming

Again with the "dairy industry " stuff .Is it a religious thing or what that people seem to have an objection to "dairy" beef ?

Beef is beef no matter where it comes from .

And your thing about the division in Irish farming ;that's a real "everybody's out of step with my Johnny " type statement .Its the suckler cow man having a tantrum that's gonna cause that .