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2020 officially saw a record number of $1 billion weather and climate disasters.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    If past historical records have uncertainty about them, wouldn’t it also be expected to see them be broken, would it not also be irrelevant in reporting ‘record’ breaking weather?


    The real hypocrisy in the thread is those who pledge allegiance to AGW theory but do nothing about it or worse still live an ignorant self indulgent life style thinking that their 30% less emissions transport is some how superior. Separating their glass by colour only for it to be shipped off the island, or was their jam jars before recycling… the list goes on.

    The arrogance is unbearable. RTE fly a crew over to a Forrest fire in Greece to tell their audience it’s caused by carbon emissions. The irony of the whole thing.


    Our very own Eamon Ryan is surely an” plant by some petroleum company. That guy is as green as oil.


    The complete lack of investment into nuclear is downright criminal. The move away from carbon is to further disproportionately tax low to middle income.

    The mismanagement by individuals, scientists, business and Governments is crippling.


    For folks like Akrasia, 297,000 children under five die every year from diarrhoea alone. But hey let’s ignore that and focus on the modelled predictions. Let’s not invest a fraction of the wealth of green energy into fixing that issue. At least the AGW Messiah Attenborough can take some comfort in population reduction 😂😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    You’ve just said that whatever record was set 150 years ago. The whole point about climate change is that these records that once where broken every century are now being broken or are approaching the old record every single day/year now and that is because there’s more energy in the system due to GHG.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    I'm still no wiser as to whether you think there's an anomaly with that station's data or not.

    Your point in the shifting bell curve may be valid, but it is still separate to the fundamental issue of attribution of individual events. You freely admit that you no longer need the attribution process as "everyone knows it [insert weather event here] is due to agw. You're using the shifting bell curve theory to blanket-bomb every event with the agw stamp, putting all your faith in model projections that you know admit are so bad that they're underestimating the problem. If that's the case it just proves what I say, the science is far from settled.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Something that must be considered when comparing historical records is the effect of differences in radiation shields compared to conventional Stevenson Screens. Smaller multi-layer shields can show differences of several degrees in times of high solar radiation and light winds. I know I'll get attacked for stating the above so let me show the data.

    Compare Wednesday's max temperatures of the agrimet stations (small shield, first map) to those of the standard synoptic stations (Stevenson Screens, second map). The synoptic network is less dense but all stations are several degrees below the agrimet ones.

    This study investigated the difference between a the two types of shield and found a large spike (2 - 2.5 degrees) in the smaller shield (Type A below) during early afternoon, when solar radiation was at its peak.

    Between 1300 and 1500, when global solar radiation averaged 935 W m2 and wind speed 2 m/s, both the standard deviation and the range of temperature in the Stevenson screen were smaller than comparable values for the two commercial screens: 0.39 and 1.72 °C, respectively, compared with 0.51 and 2.42 °C for screen ‘type B’, and 0.65 and 3.16 °C for screen ‘type A’. The time lag is illustrated in Figure 10: following sunrise, temperature in the lightweight commercial screen increases more rapidly than in the Stevenson screen, resulting in a temperature difference of up to 2 °C.

    For most of the day, temperatures from the Stevenson screen remain about 1.5 °C lower. As solar flux decreases in the afternoon, the lightweight screen cools more rapidly, and the temperature difference is eroded.

    Statistical analysis may not always reveal the full extent of differences between the Stevenson screen and modern gill-type screens. Table II shows typical statistical values for temperatures recorded in the Stevenson screen, in the two commercial screens and in a mechanically aspirated double-barrelled shield used as a reference on a sunny day. with light but fairly constant winds of about 1–2 m/s. As in the previous experiment, there is no ‘absolute’ reference temperature. However, it was considered that an air speed of about 6m/s over both surfaces of the interior shell of the mechanically aspirated shield was sufficient to ensure that the temperature of this shell would be very close to that of the air, resulting in negligible radiant heat transfer from the environment.

    Differences between the temperatures recorded in the different screens appear to be quite small – maximum, minimum and mean daily temperatures were about 0.3–0.5 °C higher in the naturally ventilated screens than in the mechanically aspirated one. Yet, as Figure 10 shows, the temperature error in screen ‘type A’ (defined as the difference relative to the aspirated, double-walled screen) was in fact not negligible for most of the day: it was greater than 1 °C for most of the sunshine hour, and exceeded 2 °C for part of the time.


    With the proliferation of these newer automated weather stations and their use in setting records, it would stand to reason that an increasing trend in records being broken may result. Now Akrasia will no doubt fob this off as me "furiously backpeddalling", but for most of the year and in most places, these difference may not amount to much. But in extreme cases, that is where these differences will be highlighted.

    But again, I'm sure the WMO know this and consider it in their records...



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Every single day? So if a record is old we should just look to break it as the agw theory says it should no longer be standing?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,887 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    I'm just curious GL what exactly your position is. Are you not convinced human-induced climate change is a thing? Or you do but you're not convinced of the effects?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Human-induced warming is a thing, no doubt, but it's the automatic attribution of every piece of weather, never mind severe event, to agw that I have a problem with. It seems that weather now only happens due to ghc and the normal storms, warm days, cold days, droughts and floods are all now the nasty results of extra CO2. Unlike how Akrasia can question the current 150-year old Ireland record, I am somehow a villain for pointing out observations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Also the attribution of AGW impact is sorely disappointing.


    Take the Greece fires as example, it’s portrayed in the media that AGW is the only contributor to the fires. Without AGW Greece would be fire free, which is simply not true. There is no concerted effort from the scientific community to admonish the media and fanatical groups/politicians for misrepresentation and fear mongering.

    Almost everyone in this thread wants change, some just don’t buy into the hyperbole.

    Myself, I don’t think Carbon is the sole driver, nor do I believe net emissions is a panacea to our problems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    "There is no concerted effort from the scientific community to admonish the media and fanatical groups/politicians for misrepresentation and fear mongering". - Nabber.

    When you have big science, big media and big corps all on the same side as the right-wing neoliberal establishment, I become concerned.

    In other news, climate hero Joe Biden, when he isn't busy slaughtering and bombing the crap out of innocent Arab peoples, is now running bowl in hand to them for more oil... all this as he shuts down pipelines in his own country.

    U.S. calls on OPEC and its allies to pump more oil | Reuters

    But wait, I thought fossil fuels were evil Joe? Didn't you, in your presidential campaign, want to jail those who promoted fossil fuels?

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,138 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    July 2021 hottest month worldwide on record, beating September 2020. Yikes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    At what point will you pull your kitchen sink out and post it up.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,570 ✭✭✭jackboy




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Terrifying!

    "It was 0.02 of a degree F (0.01 of a degree C) higher than the previous record set in July 2016, which was then tied in 2019 and 2020" - NOAA

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    If you really accept AGW can you tell me which weather events that you believe were caused by climate change

    cause all I ever see from you is you challenging every single attribution



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Joe Biden is not a strong leader. And I don’t believe he has fully grasped the enormity of the climate change crisis



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Of course they did, his opponent was Donald Trump.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    And the difference between Biden and Trump is...?

    A: None. Here is VP Harris, under full approval of science hero Biden, regurgitating Trump's message almost word for word:

    'Because he's not Trump' is as lame and shallow as excuse as I have ever heard. Do better.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Looks like your political analysis is on a par with your ability to analyse what the evil scientists are up to this week...

    Everything you come out with is just so off the wall and twisted, have you ever thought about speaking to a professional? You genuinely sound like you need to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    On July 30, 1876 and August 4, 1881, temperatures of 51 °C (124 °F) and 50 °C (122 °F)[1] were both reported for Seville: these readings are unreliable, since they were measured under a standard exposure and in poor technical conditions.[2] A temperature of 48.8 °C (119.8 °F) was also recorded at Cazalla de la Sierra on August 30, 1926, but is generally not considered valid by international standards,

    More drunk people operating weather stations! Guess you got to do something to pass the time.


    Fair play to Joe.ie "UNVERIFIED" "possibly" https://www.joe.ie/news/unverified-temperatures-48-8c-reported-sicily-possibly-highest-ever-recorded-europe-728377

    Unverified temperatures of 48.8C reported in Sicily, possibly the highest ever recorded in Europe


    Compared to RTE

    New heat record in Italy as anticyclone 'Lucifer' sweeps in


    State funded media showing no bias at all there. 🤑



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    I'm not sure records, past or present, prove anything either way though. We had a 10 day heatwave here in this country recently and no max temp records were broken, but the sheer duration of the heatwave was historically noteworthy.

    Edit:

    Compared to RTE

    New heat record in Italy as anticyclone 'Lucifer' sweeps in


    State funded media showing no bias at all there. 🤑 - Nabber.

    Southern Italy was under a slack trough, not a luciferin Anticyclone when that temp was reached:

    Media, eh?

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    So what else is driving climate change is there like a Bond villain with a weather machine or something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,570 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Industrial scale destruction of habitats may also be having an impact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    They do show the manifestation on potential weather. The energy and technology required to arcuately model and predict global weather patterns at local and global scales don't exist. We can look at past weather as an example of possibilities.

    Current record in Greece, there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't be beaten with or without AGW. Arkasia's bell curve moving is a the most likely outcome of a warming planet, but we lack the understanding and technology to determine what weather is natural and what is not.

    We know that 50 year events are an estimation and not approximation, so if ten events happen in a 50 year span, do we determine 9 are irregular and 1 is regular, if so how do we identify the naturally occurring event? Which is a concern raised in here somewhere (Currently all weather disasters are attributed to AGW) Record heat isn't 100% validation of a models accuracy, particularly when the model is only inferring more heat means more extreme. The heat in Europe could be natural, then again it might not.

    Disproving one or the other seems to be the premise of this thread.

    Poster 1: The earth is warming and these weather events prove it

    Poster 2: I agree the earth is warming, but prove this weather is not just natural

    Poster 1: 1 in XX year events are happening with more frequency

    Poster 2: That is not proof it's not natural



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    I don't challenge every single attribution. I challenge every single automatic knee-jerk attribution by all and sundry with column inches to fill or funding to secure. Then there's the recent express attribution method, where the middle man is cut out and everything of note is now assumed agw because of the balance of probabilities. Sound familiar?

    Yesterday I outlined why some of the trends we see may be due to other reasons unrelated to atmospheric composition. It took a lot of energy to do all that backpedalling but it seems to have evaded the usual wrath. I wonder if that might mean there's something to it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Are you trolling?


    I can never tell with your contributions.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




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